No affair(?), no feelings...is there hope? Part II

[44tries]

Wow. A lot of activity in this thread. 44 I still think that you are in a good position here without confronting. There will always be time to tackle this and come to some resolution. As I said before I do not think there is a lot of chance of this A lasting very long based on the ages involved.

If you read my sitch you will send I used a mish-mash of a couple of different anti-divorce techniques. One of course is DBing, another was one that first move was to set aside the problems in your MR and work on reconnecting. Pursuit? A bit maybe. But the beauty of that is the antithesis of MC where all you do is talk about your problems.

The theory is a sound one and I believe the combination of DBing and reconnecting helped my sitch turnaround fairly quickly. It took about 3 months for my wife to come back to the MR. Reluctantly at first, but it picked up momentum after that and by month 4 she seems fully committed back to the MR.

Some here are skeptical of that turnaround, and I am being vigilant to make sure the changes are consistent over time. But I really do believe that part of what worked for me was not constantly talking about the problems.

We also had being devoutly religious going for us in our sitch. I think her beliefs, though she temporarily turned away from them, helped bring her back. A big turning point was the faith-based marriage retreat we went on in mid-Feb.

Steve, I really appreciate your VP. I feel like I'm saying that to everyone, but please know it is very genuine. All of you giving me advice are coming from different experiences and have different attitudes and opinions, which is great. I am a problem-solver by nature, so I can really see the appeal to your mishmash approach. There is rarely one right answer to complex issues--of which this certainly qualifies--and as awesome as DBing is, I am careful at times not to get too pigeon-holed and start following the laws like a cult member (all in jest). The biggest challenge for me is that DBing is mostly counter-intuitive so a lot of times it feels like 'brainwashing' is necessary or I will screw up.

But I also know it can't always be foolproof. For example, Sandi has a very stalwart view on the heart and mind of a WW. I think she is very wise and majority of the time, surely right. I value her opinion very highly. However, MRay accounts how his W came clean immediately when confronted about her A and seems to know she is in the wrong. Doesn't mean she doesn't still have feelings or want to be with OM or want to recommit to MRay. But it does sort of deviate from the "WW model".

Continuing with that example, I have a very hard time accepting the fact that my W will not give a hoot what I think of her if I tell her how disgusted and disappointed I am in what she's done. High self-esteem is not her strong suit and she cares a lot about what everyone thinks of her, including me. She may have lost respect for me as a H, but I don't think she has lost respect for me as an intelligent, up-standing, moral man. Again, it doesn't mean she will end her A, show remorse, etc but feel some amount of shame? I would say yes. But I KNOW I have a blindfold on. I am not trusting any of my instincts. It does make me feel vulnerable to walking into a wall.

That was a bit tangential, but the point is sometimes it feels like I've stepped into another dimension where I must view my W as a stone-cold, heartless stranger that is nothing like who she was a month ago. If she was hurting so much, if she felt unloved, if I didn't cherish her and the connection was lost, where is the logic that says I must show only detachment and non-pursuit? I've come to accept that this is temporary and beneficial to gain back her attraction. But one size does not fit all and I completely believe you when you say you have had success mixing alternative theories that may allow for a bit of pursuit. The hard part is I am a clueless newborn to this world and I don't really feel I have the skill to apply such nuance to my situation. So I am following the hardline DB approach somewhat blindly and trying to learn as much as I can. I just hope by the time I am a functional craftsman at this trade, I won't have already messed up.

Hopefully that long-winded merry-go-round made sense and is in line with what you were trying to say. I will go through and read your threads. I think I have read some, but I find everything on these boards that I re-read, I learn something new. Thanks again for your encouragement and please know how much your input helps.

[AnotherStander]

The biggest challenge for me is that DBing is mostly counter-intuitive so a lot of times it feels like 'brainwashing' is necessary or I will screw up.

DB'ing is more about an attitude shift in you rather than her. It does feel awkward at first, but eventually you'll get the hang of it. As far as screwing it up, we all make mistakes now and then. The intent is to keep moving forward. Two steps forward and one back is still forward momentum. So if you make a mistake don't sweat it.

Continuing with that example, I have a very hard time accepting the fact that my W will not give a hoot what I think of her if I tell her how disgusted and disappointed I am in what she's done.

My ex sat in MC and when the counselor asked is she loved me she said "yes", if she respected me she said "absolutely", if she enjoyed the sex she said "definitely". The counselor looked perplexed and said "I don't understand the problem then, what exactly is wrong?" And the ex said "I just don't want to be married anymore." The fact you have to accept is that right now, she is done. Nothing you say or do is going to change that. Time and space MIGHT change it (but it might not). All you can do is work on yourself and give her time to appreciate the "new you".

That was a bit tangential, but the point is sometimes it feels like I've stepped into another dimension where I must view my W as a stone-cold, heartless stranger that is nothing like who she was a month ago.

Not sure how you got that impression. DB and DR and Sandi's rules all emphasize LOVING detachment. The message here is consistent that your W is confused and in turmoil right now, and that this is as much about her and the soul-searching she needs to do as it is about you.

If she was hurting so much, if she felt unloved, if I didn't cherish her and the connection was lost, where is the logic that says I must show only detachment and non-pursuit?

The logic is that the harder you pursue, the more repulsed she is and the more it drives her away. You've got to stop that dynamic by quitting the pursuit and backing off. WAS's hate pressure so your job is to remove all pressure. Pursuing her does not make her feel cherished, because pursuit is what YOU want, not her. She wants to be left alone. So when you pursue you are basically saying "I don't care what you want, this is all about me me me."

[44tries]

DB'ing is more about an attitude shift in you rather than her. It does feel awkward at first, but eventually you'll get the hang of it. As far as screwing it up, we all make mistakes now and then. The intent is to keep moving forward. Two steps forward and one back is still forward momentum. So if you make a mistake don't sweat it.

Thanks, I need to remember this as I can be a bit of a perfectionist and become obsessed with doing things right the first time..

My ex sat in MC and when the counselor asked is she loved me she said "yes", if she respected me she said "absolutely", if she enjoyed the sex she said "definitely". The counselor looked perplexed and said "I don't understand the problem then, what exactly is wrong?" And the ex said "I just don't want to be married anymore." The fact you have to accept is that right now, she is done. Nothing you say or do is going to change that. Time and space MIGHT change it (but it might not). All you can do is work on yourself and give her time to appreciate the "new you".

That story really drives that point home, thank you.

Not sure how you got that impression. DB and DR and Sandi's rules all emphasize LOVING detachment. The message here is consistent that your W is confused and in turmoil right now, and that this is as much about her and the soul-searching she needs to do as it is about you.

Maybe you misread my quote, or I'm misunderstanding something. I'm not saying I need to be stone-cold and heartless. I know I need to detach with love. I'm talking about how I feel all of the descriptions of WWs depict them as "not the girl you married", "in complete rebellion", "no capacity for logic",etc, which is a very stark difference probably from your "normal" wife that was seemingly there before BD.

The logic is that the harder you pursue, the more repulsed she is and the more it drives her away. You've got to stop that dynamic by quitting the pursuit and backing off. WAS's hate pressure so your job is to remove all pressure. Pursuing her does not make her feel cherished, because pursuit is what YOU want, not her. She wants to be left alone. So when you pursue you are basically saying "I don't care what you want, this is all about me me me."

Right. This IS the logic that counters the original, intuitive logic. And it's why I believe in DBing and am willing to sort of 'blindly' follow it while I really learn the ropes.

[44tries]

Couple more questions/thoughts...sorry guys I'm really on a posting kick today as my mind has been turning.

I have been strict about any pursuit. For all my failures in accommodation and being too available, I do not break any of the rules of active pursuit on my part. I do not call or text,period, don't ask any questions of any kind, keep my answers short and simple, basically at minimum fake it til I make it on total detachment. It's becoming easy. My question is: W has been working late the past few nights. Would turning the porch light on for her before I go to bed be considered pursuit?

I have been thinking a bit after reading so much on the WW and posts by Sandi; there is a lot of mention about unmet needs of the W sort of catalysing the development of waywardness and building over time. I'm trying to think more about what these unmet needs actually are. Obviously, as a Nice Guy, my thoughts on meeting needs are flawed and I realize this. So, I'm going to give an example of a scenario where I felt I was "meeting a need". But I'm wondering now if perhaps I was actually engaging in accommodating "Nice Guy" behavior and had the opposite effect.

After we had moved in together, a small issue that arose pretty quickly was that I would get a lot of water on the sink in the mornings/evenings when I washed my face. I thought, eh, it's just water, it will be dry by the time I use the sink again. Well, my W hated it. Made comments and complaints almost everyday about how I left water all over the sink. Similarly, I hated the fact that she left the lid off the toothpaste every, single time she used it. I wasn't quite as overt as she was about the water, but I would lightheartedly mention she never puts the cap back or give her a friendly reminder to please to try and remember. She clearly knew it was something that bothered me.

It didn't take long before I listened to her complaints about the water. I got a designated towel and put up a hook for it, so I could have a system in place to easily wipe up the water. To this day, I cannot wash my face without cleaning the sink afterward because I knew it was something she cared about and wanted to make sure I listened and she knew I cared that she cared. In my mind, I'm thinking this is one small thing of many that I'm doing to be a great H. Meanwhile, I've never seen her make any effort to cap the toothpaste. Sometimes I see it sitting there uncapped while I'm cleaning the water and it makes my blood boil a bit. Where did my thinking go wrong here? Was I too accommodating by cleaning up the water when she wasn't willing to reciprocate? Was it a covert contract?

Not trying to turn this into a "what do women want" question. I'm just trying to identify the parts of NGS I need to get rid of and eliminate my wrong ideas about what being a "good H" means.

[sandi2]

For Sandi, I wonder if you have any input on the issue I brought up about WAS --> WW vs. straight-up WW. Do you think my W is a true WW? I don't even really know that it makes a difference, but you mentioned it is important to understand the nature of a WW's heart and I am really trying to put myself in my W's shoes and gain that insight.

That ^^^^^^^^ was my main purpose of writing the WW threads. I thought you said you had read them, but maybe I was mistaken. If you did, you obviously missed the reason behind the threads. I believe a WAW is a W who doesn't necessarily desire to end her M, but her H has put her in such a position that she feels she must get away from him for her own safety and for the welfare of her children. He may be abusive, or doing something illegally, or an addict, imprisoned, or something along those lines. In other words, he really is the bad guy in WAW sitches. In all of the WW sitches I have known IRL and on this board, the WW is the bad guy......and the H often has NGS, but it's not necessary or a defining factor that makes the W wayward.

I think there might be varying levels as to just how 'wayward' or addicted a WW might be. I am going to write an update when I finish my replies that touches a bit more on this. But essentially, I think there could be a distinction between a WAW who turns WW as a symptom vs. a true WW that just goes off the deep end.

Well, of course, every situation differs in degrees of waywardness. Compared to a lot of WW's I've read about on the board, I was pretty tame! But here's the thing, 44, you can't have it both ways......and I think that's what you're trying to do here.

You are welcome to join the ranks of H's who think their 20 something W is having a MLC instead of being wayward. Would that make you feel better? Cause let me be very blunt here.........you don't have a clue! You are trying to find a loophole for yourself. You read this....then you read that.....then something else......and your mind changes with everything you read.

Last night I was trying to hold you back from jumping off the ledge blindfolded, and today you decide she is somewhere between WAW and WW. Years ago I would refer to WAW's who were in an A and those who weren't........trying to make a distinction, but it wasn't enough. The two mindsets are completely different.

So, since you asked.........that's my input about it. I think you just need to stop trying to label and analyze and coming up with some theory........and just calm down and read the information.

For example, Sandi has a very stalwart view on the heart and mind of a WW. I think she is very wise and majority of the time, surely right. I value her opinion very highly. However, MRay accounts how his W came clean immediately when confronted about her A and seems to know she is in the wrong.

Thanks for your kind words (I think). FWIW, his W was one of those I said I could count on one hand who admitted it. He says they are headed for D, so what is it you wish to gain from confrontation? Do you want to hear her admit it and tell you she wants a D? Is that how you see as a successful confrontation?

I'm not going to keep wrestling you over this confrontation thing. Not tonight.

[Natash]

Continuing with that example, I have a very hard time accepting the fact that my W will not give a hoot what I think of her if I tell her how disgusted and disappointed I am in what she's done. High self-esteem is not her strong suit and she cares a lot about what everyone thinks of her, including me. She may have lost respect for me as a H, but I don't think she has lost respect for me as an intelligent, up-standing, moral man.

I thought the same way at one point until I realized my wife is not the W I married (I had read it and believed it but don't think I had fully accepted it yet).The WW's are done with us LBHs...I'm the enemy and she doesn't care. She lost her best friend over a legal issue last year and a very close/close to best friend was less than impressed when the W bragged about texting OM to her. It wasn't long after that my W unfriended her on Facebook and now won't talk with her. My W highly respected me as well and definitely cared about what people thought of her too.Think about it... if they are lying, cheating, and being deceitful, they are not concerned about the their own Morales let alone their enemies. I think it comes down to the WW mindset is definitely different than before.

[44tries]

That ^^^^^^^^ was my main purpose of writing the WW threads. I thought you said you had read them, but maybe I was mistaken. If you did, you obviously missed the reason behind the threads. I believe a WAW is a W who doesn't necessarily desire to end her M, but her H has put her in such a position that she feels she must get away from him for her own safety and for the welfare of her children. He may be abusive, or doing something illegally, or an addict, imprisoned, or something along those lines. In other words, he really is the bad guy in WAW sitches. In all of the WW sitches I have known IRL and on this board, the WW is the bad guy......and the H often has NGS, but it's not necessary or a defining factor that makes the W wayward.

My apologies, now that you highlight this main distinction, I remember you saying this several times. Shows how much I need to step back from reading and reading and process for a bit! I got caught up in trying to understand the difference in WW vs WAS hearts and completely overlooked the obvious--WAS is pushed away by a bad H, whereas WW is the bad guy and H often has NGS. Very different dynamic and very clear distinction. My W is most definitely WW.

Well, of course, every situation differs in degrees of waywardness. Compared to a lot of WW's I've read about on the board, I was pretty tame! But here's the thing, 44, you can't have it both ways......and I think that's what you're trying to do here.

You are welcome to join the ranks of H's who think their 20 something W is having a MLC instead of being wayward. Would that make you feel better? Cause let me be very blunt here.........you don't have a clue! You are trying to find a loophole for yourself. You read this....then you read that.....then something else......and your mind changes with everything you read.

To be clear, I do not think my W is having a MLC. And I am very clear on why this would be much worse. I have no problem accepting my W is WW, I think I just dug in too deep in trying to understand what exactly that meant about her heart. I think it's important to be aware of the general state of the WW heart, but probably doesn't matter nearly as much as I thought it did trying to break down the degree of waywardness and if all the check boxes apply. As you pointed out, it can quickly become a game of trying to warp the situation in your favor rather than gain actual insight. I'll stop thinking about it and just assume she as wayward as they come.

Last night I was trying to hold you back from jumping off the ledge blindfolded, and today you decide she is somewhere between WAW and WW. Years ago I would refer to WAW's who were in an A and those who weren't........trying to make a distinction, but it wasn't enough. The two mindsets are completely different.

So, since you asked.........that's my input about it. I think you just need to stop trying to label and analyze and coming up with some theory........and just calm down and read the information.

Thank you for being patient with me and explaining this. You are right, the labels are not that important and started to get in the way of me actually learning the information.

Thanks for your kind words (I think). FWIW, his W was one of those I said I could count on one hand who admitted it. He says they are headed for D, so what is it you wish to gain from confrontation? Do you want to hear her admit it and tell you she wants a D? Is that how you see as a successful confrontation?

I'm not going to keep wrestling you over this confrontation thing. Not tonight.

Please know the words were indeed intended kindly and with much respect. My response there was to Steve and I was just trying to acknowledge that I was maintaining an open mind and understand that one exact approach does not fit all situations, which was what I interpreted he was trying to tell me. The examples I gave were simply an illustration of an outlier--but I understand that is exactly what they were, an outlier, and therefore unlikely just as you said. I was only acknowledging they exist.

Perhaps I failed to make it clear that I was just sharing some of my "instinct" feelings that go against what DB teaches since it is counterintuitive. I was not actually putting stock into them. I made my decision not to have a confrontation, much thanks to you, and am fully behind all the reasons why.

[44tries]

I thought the same way at one point until I realized my wife is not the W I married (I had read it and believed it but don't think I had fully accepted it yet).The WW's are done with us LBHs...I'm the enemy and she doesn't care. She lost her best friend over a legal issue last year and a very close/close to best friend was less than impressed when the W bragged about texting OM to her. It wasn't long after that my W unfriended her on Facebook and now won't talk with her. My W highly respected me as well and definitely cared about what people thought of her too.Think about it... if they are lying, cheating, and being deceitful, they are not concerned about the their own Morales let alone their enemies. I think it comes down to the WW mindset is definitely different than before.

Thank you, Natash. You are completely right and I know my W is likely right there with yours. As I said to Sandi, I think I failed to make it clear that I was just venting and sharing my instincts that I knew were wrong, rather than trying to argue. That is why I said "I KNOW I have a blindfold on". I sort of regret writing that post at all now, but the main purpose was just putting to paper all of the intuitive feelings that come into my head and get in the way of coming to terms with the truth. I think I gave the impression that I had backslid to actually thinking they were true.

[sandi2]

So how did you do yesterday with your "No More" rules?

[44tries]

So glad you asked, Sandi . I will include them in my update today:

I have joined a workout club that hosts outdoor classes in various parks around the city closest to me. Today was the first class I attended and I loved it! Can't believe I didn't find it before. Between this club, the gym, and my language exchange group, I am ensuring I get out of the house everyday. The only thing that is kind of a bummer is the city is a 40 min drive. But, I think it's worth it. It is sort of amazing how every time I do a new GAL event, and really push myself to get out there and try new things/meet new people, I leave with a tangible increase in the "I'm going to be just fine without my W" feeling.

I am also doing a final interview tomorrow for a contract job teaching English, so if all goes well I will start that by next week. And I just submitted a scholarship application for an intensive summer program related to my master's that I hope might help put me in a position to get a related job sooner than planned. My current classes are wrapping up with finals this week and my mom and brother just booked tickets to come visit in a couple months. Also planning a surf trip with my sister this summer. So, that's my GAL update for the moment, really trying to be aggressive about it and keep ramping up.

As for how my W is responding to the GAL...I'm trying not to over-analyze or really worry about it, but I'm finding it hard to stick to the rules about giving few details and basically being mysterious because my W is so nosy! Sandi, her response to coming home from work today and me not being there was exactly as you predicted. I had 3 missed calls and multiple messages on different platforms. I responded when we got a water break and just said "at workout group, ends at 8" (she asked where was I, when would I be home, etc). My whole way home she is messaging "almost here?". Now, when I got there I almost laughed. It was like that classic movie scene where the wife is sitting in the dark and turns the light on when her H walks in. She was sitting in the dark office with her feet on the desk literally waiting for me to arrive. I acted like I thought it was weird she was waiting (didn't have to act) and she starts asking me all about what I was doing, how it was, and then goes into how she has been sitting there stewing because she can't believe I hadn't let her know my plans. Now to be clear, she wasn't mad; it was pretty lighthearted and she knew she was being ridiculous. But she was still serious. She asked me to please let her know if I am going to be gone and what days my workout groups are going to be, etc. Is this her trying to exert power or what? And should I agree or tell her I don't have to let her know? I am glad to see the "curiosity" and "interest" that MWD says to watch for, but it feels very...excessive.

After that intense ordeal, she followed me around moaning about how she was in pain and wanted to do all these chores but just couldn't, blah blah. I don't know how or why she ever got into the habit of doing that, but it is not attractive to say the least. She whines and whines expecting me to jump in and do something for her (I assume the habit came because I usually did). Anyway, eventually we go to our separate rooms but somehow she ends up in my room climbing into the bed next to me so we can online shop together. Then she wants to know if I'm making dinner and what I will eat. You can see where this is going...So then I'm heating up her food and she's asking to share a drink, and I'm wondering how I got sucked into the vortex again. It's very hard for me to figure out where to draw the line between letting her initiate conversations and "hanging out" and me ending up doing things for her. It only makes it worse that I feel some sort of obligation when she is tired from work or says she sick, and I just got back from some fun workout class. So, that brings me to my updated list of No More Rules:

* No more being her errand boy whenever she is in another part of the house and wants you to take something to her.
* No more fixing her food whenever she says she doesn't know what she wants to eat.
* No more changing your plans when she tells you, without fair notice, she wants you to help her in the yard, or some other job that will take a considerable amount of time.
* No more hungrily waiting to talk with her when she gets home from work.
* No more over-explaining yourself.
* No more letting her whine and passive-aggressively ask me for things. If she really needs something, it needs to be a direct, reasonable request.
* No more sitting down in her room; if she calls me in there, I remain standing and leave as soon as she says what she has to say. (I don't break this one often, but when I do I always regret it)

I will continue to add as issues arise. I really like this idea .