No affair(?), no feelings...is there hope? Part II

[Natash]

Hi 44, I will echo what Sandi and MRay have given you for advice. I have not followed MRays thread but will look it up as it sounds very similar to mine. I have basically been in an in house separation since January. I wish I had handled the BD differently and I wish I had not confronted my WW about the A (she told me she had feelings for him earlier on but the conversations could stop). Like Sandi said WW will act like the A has nothing to do with the sitch...my W said the A has nothing to do with our Sitch and feels it's a side effect (which I think is another way they justify it to themselves).I felt the conversation didn't stop and snooped later on. I was sick and heart broke to what I found. I held it in until one day got sucked into a R convo. It was the last time for a R talk because I refuse to bring up A or any R talk now and if she does I will walk away or leave the house like I should have done then. Why confront unless you are leaving? Confronting her does not change what either one of you knows and if you don't have a plan of action for yourself, nothing will change. I am committed to being the stable logical parent for my kids and will not leave my house so it leaves me stuck and looking weak because nothing changed after I confronted her about the text (which she looked straight at me and said "I don't remember typing that"). My W told me she was going to move out at the end of April. Now that time is approaching I'm beginning to wonder if she will. If she doesn't, I can either file for D or continue this battle of standing while working to validate, GAL, and stay calm/be the light house. It is tough but once you except it and control your emotions and negative thoughts, it seems to get a bit easier. I have accepted the affair has happened and how I played a part in the MR failure leading up to the A. A piece of advice that has helped me each day is to say to myself often "stay calm" while trying to be the best father and man I can be.

[44tries]

Yes, I had to snoop to get the info. I couldn't ignore my instincts any longer. As part of my confrontation I wouldn't allow her to have her phone in her room for a few weeks. I spent that time reading through all their messages (I couldn't sleep, enjoyed torturing myself apparently, and wanted to confirm certain things they said). After awhile I let her take it into her room because I felt it was ridiculous. If she wanted to talk to him she could. And that would mean we were over. I made that very clear. She has never said anything about being upset or anything like that for my snooping. Whether she is or not I don't really know. And like I said, the A isn't currently on (that I know of), but I'm sure she still wants it. Her feelings for OM are still there, and she is only not acting on them because he won't for now. That's why I wish I could change the way I confronted her. I'm pretty sure she hasn't left because she doesn't know for sure that he will have her and all her baggage now that he's been confronted with it.

For full disclosure. She didn't change her phone's password until we officially decided to divorce about 3 weeks ago. She immediately changed it at this point, so I couldn't snoop now if I wanted to even though we're back in limbo. I'm sure if I asked she'd show me, but I feel that would be weak and counterproductive.

Wow! My W would NEVER agree to allow me to hold her phone hostage, much less read all her A messages. That's interesting that she never commented on your snooping or was angry about it. Seems to be a pretty normal part of the WW script usually. I understand the problem of knowing the only real reason she isn't continuing with OM is because of your intervention. Her feelings are unresolved and that could work against you. That is part of the argument in my head for the "don't confront" side. I cannot control her or the A and putting myself in the middle is probably not the best place for me to be. She needs to end it on her own if we really have any real chance for recon. Whether I can have any indirect influence on that choice, IDK. But, I don't see any way for her to truly recommit if she was still wondering how things could be with OM. Similar to the guilt issue, ideally the WW does not come back for the wrong reasons or the cycle continues. I'm sorry this is the sort of the situation you are facing now.

[44tries]

Well, that's what we hope to accomplish. I won't say there will never be a time for you to confront her. I'm saying the time is not now. You aren't ready.

I understand. I am very grateful to have someone like you who can objectively tell me that bluntly.

I don't know if you realize it, but that last sentence is very good.....and says volumes. Becoming that man only a fool would sacrifice for an affair is admirable. Unfortunately, there are a lot fools running around out there.......but if you come through this ordeal being a better man, then you will have gained something very valuable that a piece of paper doesn't determine. Know what I mean? In other words, a marriage license or a divorce decree does not make the man. You make the man.

I'm glad to hear this. That is my one and only true goal for this whole situation. I want to be a better man that only a fool would leave. If she turns out to be a fool, so be it. I definitely understand that a piece of paper or my relationship with her has no bearing on the man that I become. Which is a great thing because that means the one thing I do have control over--myself--is the only thing that matters for achieving my true goal.

I really believe you are thinking of tactics. Someone suggests confrontation and you can't get it out of your head until you do it. I've watched this played out over the past eleven years of reading stories on this forum. If it was executed perfectly? Yes, it would probably be your best chance. Do you know how to execute it perfectly? It very seldom goes the way the H imagines. If you don't know much about the mindset of a wayward, then you will be sorely disappointed in the outcome.

Completely clear on what you're saying here. I don't want it to be a tactic, but you can't really force it to be something else if that's still what it is deep down. I know it's a part of the process that probably every LBS faces. I think you are right, that until there is no outcome that will cause me disappointment (truly detached), I'm probably setting myself up for further pain and suffering.

Listen, women have denied it when the H would play a recording of the lovers having sex, show photos of them together, and a record of all their text messages. I can count on one hand how rare it is for a WW to admit her affair when the H confronts her.

Wow, that is very crazy. But I believe you. I would like to think "not my W", but I'm not that naive.

This is what concerns me. You are placing too much hope in emotions. You don't even understand the makeup of a wayward W. No, she won't be shaken! She doesn't care what you think about her.

I kept trying to get you to say what you expected when you confronted her. Now I know you hoped she would feel sorry about it, and above all, would not want to lose your respect and trust in her. I wish it was that simple. In the mindset of a wayward, that's kind of like.........the side effects. If the side effects are not bigger than the high she gets from her drug of choice (which is her EA), then she won't stop the drug. See what I mean? The side effects may be uncomfortable, but she's hooked on the drug and she'll keep it until it's not worth the side effects. But remember, you are dealing with an illogical person. Therefore, you will have to get really tough (side effects), live with it, or get out of it. There are only three choices.

I see it. Objectively, it makes sense. But it's still very hard to come to terms with the fact that all that behavior is so foreign when it's your own W you're talking about. Addiction has the power though. I do want to say that I think there might be varying levels as to just how 'wayward' or addicted a WW might be. I am going to write an update when I finish my replies that touches a bit more on this. But essentially, I think there could be a distinction between a WAW who turns WW as a symptom vs. a true WW that just goes off the deep end. You might disagree and I certainly know you know a lot more than I do .

For today, I am trying to keep you from jumping off into something you don't know what you are doing. Newcomer make a big leap, then come back crying and asking what to do next. They don't wait long enough to learn a few things before leaping. See, guys get these things on their brain and then can't rest until they do it. It's like an obsession! What I want you to do is calm down and put aside the thought of confronting her........for a little while anyway, okay? Jumping into something blindfolded is not a good way to get the results you want. Too many guys do that and then realize the results wasn't what he thought he'd get.

I don't want you to feel powerless, and that is why I have been trying to get you to hold back confronting her, at this time. Like I said previously, the only power you have is to have your bags packed and setting at the door when you tell her you will not stay with a cheater (or however you word it). It can't be a bluff. When you feel confident enough that you aren't doing it as some tactic, then you can confront her. But until you are serious and ready......really ready to walk out that door for good, I can't see how you are going to benefit from a confrontation. I want you to understand the possibilities, and I felt like you were jumping at this with unrealistic expectations. What I mean to say is that you don't have enough information about DBing under your belt yet. Plus, wayward wives are the most illogical people on the planet. You imagine her responding like a caring wife who had any sense would respond, right? She won't.

I truly appreciate all of this, Sandi. I feel incredibly grateful to have found this forum and your contributions especially. I can't even imagine trying to go through this without all the support. I am not ready yet because I am not ready to walk out the door, partly just due to logistics. And I know my expectations about the results will undoubtedly not be met.

Pulling back on the accommodating stuff, alone, is probably not enough to bring her around. However, it is a good starting point for what you need to do in becoming a man only a fool would sacrifice for an A. If you want to save this M, then you need to make some big changes. I'm not talking about changes to appease her. I'm talking about becoming an attractive, dominant male who your W will respect and love.

I want you to get on line and do some reading on the subject of how to show male dominance in marriage. Read everything you can find about the dominant male. Okay?

Okay . I have found some great resources already and I will continue to read. I am feeling a lot more confident today that this is the best path for me, and again I will explain a bit more in my update.

[44tries]

Yes, and that's another reason I don't think you would get your desired results if you confronted your W about her A, at this time. She could always throw it up that you are separated.

Excellent point, and one that will be part of my update.

I don't believe in-house separation works b/c the couple is not separated. Like you said, you are going on dates and outings, fixing her something to eat, catering to her.........so other than not sleeping together, what has changed due to the separation?

Right. It is certainly MUCH harder to create any real separation, if not almost impossible. I could start refusing to do any of that stuff, but then the cohabitation just becomes even more miserable.

Some people believe if the couple is separated, they are free to date. Whatever your personal view......and your W's views.......it is still not like being physically separated. Were any ground rules established when this in-house separation took place? (Don't say anything to her about it, I'm just asking you).

Don't repeat anything you read to your W........unless we tell you to say something specifically.

There were not. Only 'rule' is we don't sleep in the same bed anymore. As for being free to date, personally I am not okay with that and objectively I think my W would say the same. However, I think this is obviously a very real issue for her at the moment. Like you mentioned before, I am beginning to realize that she might not even view this as an A. I really need to get to that update...where I will write more.

Your W takes you for granted. You can cause mystery and draw interest if you'll follow a few things I suggest. Women are curious by nature, so expect her to drill you about your whereabouts and activity and who is with you. Don't lie to her, but be vague. Use as few words as possible to answer.

You wanted to shake her up, so why don't you start being gone when she gets home from work? Do this a few times through the week, staying out a little bit longer every time. Let her fix her own dinner. Then by the weekend, have something planned that will keep you out really late. After all, you are separated, aren't you? The first time you are gone when she gets home, she'll be calling, wanting to know where you are and when you intend to fix her dinner. Just tell her to go ahead and eat without you, and you'll be home in a while. If she wants to know what you are doing.........how will you respond? Remember, few words.

When you are home, always have something you are doing, so you don't follow her around.....and so that you aren't eager to talk with her. Do not accommodate her. That is going to be a new rule for you, I hope. The only exceptions is if she is sick, or something like that, okay? Don't try to sound like a jerk, but neither should you be too concerned about it. I can say this to you in your particular sitch, b/c you are too nice. You need to break some bad habits that you've formed in this relationship.

I'm going to start a list, and you may want to add to it. These are your No More Rules.

* No more being her errand boy whenever she is in another part of the house and wants you to take something to her.
* No more fixing her food whenever she says she doesn't know what she wants to eat.
* No more changing your plans when she tells you, without fair notice, she wants you to help her in the yard, or some other job that will take a considerable amount of time.
* No more hungrily waiting to talk with her when she gets home from work.
* No more over-explaining yourself.

This is all EXCELLENT, thank you so much. I just need to jump straight into the deep-end with doing all this to the greatest extent possible and realize that this is the most productive shake-up I can do right now. I will definitely think more about that "No More" rules list and add to it later today.

[44tries]

Hi 44, I will echo what Sandi and MRay have given you for advice. I have not followed MRays thread but will look it up as it sounds very similar to mine. I have basically been in an in house separation since January. I wish I had handled the BD differently and I wish I had not confronted my WW about the A (she told me she had feelings for him earlier on but the conversations could stop). Like Sandi said WW will act like the A has nothing to do with the sitch...my W said the A has nothing to do with our Sitch and feels it's a side effect (which I think is another way they justify it to themselves).I felt the conversation didn't stop and snooped later on. I was sick and heart broke to what I found. I held it in until one day got sucked into a R convo. It was the last time for a R talk because I refuse to bring up A or any R talk now and if she does I will walk away or leave the house like I should have done then. Why confront unless you are leaving? Confronting her does not change what either one of you knows and if you don't have a plan of action for yourself, nothing will change. I am committed to being the stable logical parent for my kids and will not leave my house so it leaves me stuck and looking weak because nothing changed after I confronted her about the text (which she looked straight at me and said "I don't remember typing that"). My W told me she was going to move out at the end of April. Now that time is approaching I'm beginning to wonder if she will. If she doesn't, I can either file for D or continue this battle of standing while working to validate, GAL, and stay calm/be the light house. It is tough but once you except it and control your emotions and negative thoughts, it seems to get a bit easier. I have accepted the affair has happened and how I played a part in the MR failure leading up to the A. A piece of advice that has helped me each day is to say to myself often "stay calm" while trying to be the best father and man I can be.

Thank you for your input, Natash. Very sage advice and some that has helped me get to a place of peace today. Seriously, your input is gold. I am in the exact same situation where I am not in a place where I can physically leave the house and this makes the confrontation essentially meaningless. What you say about continuing your battle of GAL/validation/lighthouse is sort of my 'alternative' to confrontation, but your story really helps show that it is what will end up happening anyway.

[44tries]

So here is my update:

My perspective has shifted a bit, hopefully in a good way. I snooped again today, but it's not what you think. It wasn't anything to do with the A. (And don't worry I have no interest in snooping becoming a habit, but today it turned out to be a blessing). What I snooped on was the conversation my W had with one of our best friends about ending our marriage.

Predictably, my W mentioned nothing of the A. Instead she had a lot to say about how unhappy she has been and how much she has been hurting. She said a lot about how deeply she cares about me and her heart is destroyed knowing how much she has hurt me and treated me in ways I do not deserve (I assume this mostly refers to her inability to give me the affection and love I want, sex, etc). She talked about how much it hurts to end our relationship, and also the small amount of relief she felt now that it is in the open. She talked about how our communication has been open and honest and how much she respects me (this part I have to say is obviously flawed to some degree, but I believe that she believes it). She talked about how she has really tried, but thinks some people are just not meant for each other and she couldn't go on how she had been going.

Most of this was similar to what she shared with me, and while I still take it with a grain of salt, it helps to know that her story was the same when confiding in someone she deeply trusts that isn't me. In some ways, it was a lot more information than she gave when talking to me. My heart broke all over again to see her pain and suffering. The feelings of what have I done wrong, what can I do to fix it, etc all came rushing back. But the most important insight, I think, was that I truly internalized the fact that the A has nothing to do with our MR or her choice to walk away. Certainly, I do not think it is okay or acceptable. The timing is very convenient and undoubtedly it influenced her decision. But I do believe that she intended no malice. I believe that she wanted to the right thing and break-up with me before really going down that road. Since we are not high-schoolers in a dating relationship, this doesn't quite work. But, what I can see now with full clarity is a broken, hurting woman that puts everyone else in her life above herself and doesn't know how to find her own happiness. Despite all the pain and heartache I have gone through in the past few weeks, I think the deepest hurt is to see the full extent of how much she has suffered.

Words cannot fully express how much love I have for her, and I want her to find that happiness above all else. Of course, it is devastating to think that might not be possible with me. And I am not really a believer in the whole "we're not meant for each other" thing. I think it is much more scientific than that and all those replayed scripts that couples go through over and over--the loss of respect, the resentment, the hurt--just get in the way and kill that natural connection and compatibility that brought them to the altar in the first place. Certainly there are exceptions, but there is no big secret as to why everyone's story starts to sound the same.

Perhaps it is too little, too late. When I first read MWD's article on the WAS and how she describes that only in the moment where the W decides to walk away forever, does the H truly make the changes he needed to, I felt such a sinking feeling that my story would have this same tragic ending. Maybe it will; I do not know. All I can do is make those changes and become the man I want to be. If my W is past the point of being able to turn around and see that, I am okay with it. As long as she finds happiness and fulfillment, I am at peace.

But, I no longer feel the need to 'punish' her for the A or hold her feet to the fire. I know she is on her own journey and hopefully moving closer to finding what she is looking for. I do think it is inexcusable and I hope one day she acknowledges that and apologizes. But I have understanding and sympathy, and my heart is in a place of forgiveness and humility. The A has nothing to do with the problem. I don't think there is any chance her heart changes about me or our MR while she is in the midst of it, but I think I just need to focus on being the lighthouse, addressing my own flaws, and let it run its course. The cage is open and she is free. I know I will find my own happiness regardless of what happens.

[MoveFrwd]

Aw man buddy really wish I could read your response! Hope they fix this issue soon...

Lets try from a computer....

You had mentioned that in your confrontation you were going to explain that her affair is "not going to be tolerated". Im trying to understand what actions you are going to do that will back that stance up.I dont see how living as roommates is showing that you "arent tolerating" her affair. Saying that you arent going to be a part of a three person marriage isnt a great way to evict the affair partner - it's about stepping out of it yourself.

Are you prepared to make that step? Not just emotionally and mentally, but physically and financially...

[SteveLW]

Wow. A lot of activity in this thread. 44 I still think that you are in a good position here without confronting. There will always be time to tackle this and come to some resolution. As I said before I do not think there is a lot of chance of this A lasting very long based on the ages involved.

If you read my sitch you will send I used a mish-mash of a couple of different anti-divorce techniques. One of course is DBing, another was one that first move was to set aside the problems in your MR and work on reconnecting. Pursuit? A bit maybe. But the beauty of that is the antithesis of MC where all you do is talk about your problems.

The theory is a sound one and I believe the combination of DBing and reconnecting helped my sitch turnaround fairly quickly. It took about 3 months for my wife to come back to the MR. Reluctantly at first, but it picked up momentum after that and by month 4 she seems fully committed back to the MR.

Some here are skeptical of that turnaround, and I am being vigilant to make sure the changes are consistent over time. But I really do believe that part of what worked for me was not constantly talking about the problems.

We also had being devoutly religious going for us in our sitch. I think her beliefs, though she temporarily turned away from them, helped bring her back. A big turning point was the faith-based marriage retreat we went on in mid-Feb.

[44tries]

For Sandi, I wonder if you have any input on the issue I brought up about WAS --> WW vs. straight-up WW. Do you think my W is a true WW? I don't even really know that it makes a difference, but you mentioned it is important to understand the nature of a WW's heart and I am really trying to put myself in my W's shoes and gain that insight.

[44tries]

You had mentioned that in your confrontation you were going to explain that her affair is "not going to be tolerated". Im trying to understand what actions you are going to do that will back that stance up.I dont see how living as roommates is showing that you "arent tolerating" her affair. Saying that you arent going to be a part of a three person marriage isnt a great way to evict the affair partner - it's about stepping out of it yourself.

Are you prepared to make that step? Not just emotionally and mentally, but physically and financially...

No, and that's why I've decided not to confront, at least right now. I agree with everyone's feedback, including yours, that until I am ready to walk out the door for good, it won't be much benefit.