No affair(?), no feelings...is there hope? Part II

[sandi2]

How do you envision a confrontation?

[44tries]

How do you envision a confrontation?

Good question. I have been thinking about it a lot today. I don't want to be angry or self-righteous. I don't want to prepare a wordy speech and end up looking like a wimp with a canned monologue. If I do confront her, I want to be real and honest; I want her to know that I know exactly what she's done and that she utterly betrayed the copious amounts of trust I extended to her. Mostly, I want her to feel deep down in her heart that there is a very real chance she could not earn back that trust even if she wanted to. It can be simple and firm, but I want her to feel like I'm the one dumping her for crossing that line. If I do it, I'm prepared to give up all our friendly dates and outings. She can feel what it's like not to call on me for anything. No more asking me to bring her a snack or trying to tell me she's going to the store and then 5 minutes later asking if I want to join her. I will be closed for anything than other than civil neighborly interaction.

Now, I realize that might not have answered your question. How do I actually think a confrontation would go? I honestly can't tell you with any real certainty how I think she would react. She claims to care so much about hurting me, how sorry she is for all of it. But then she lied, even after being explicitly told it will hurt me more. She knowingly chose to do the most hurtful thing she could do to me. That is so far from my expectation and familiarity of her 'normal' behavior that I can't really begin to guess how she will respond to it being out in the open. I guess it depends how 'wayward' her heart really is. I could see 3 responses. 1. Guilt. She is overwhelmed with guilt and breaks down and apologizes (don't worry, I know this would just be selfish soothing for herself) 2. Shut down. No real response at all. Just saying okay to whatever I decide to say. 3. Defensiveness. Getting angry and nasty, grilling me on whether I snooped, trying to turn the heat off of herself.

[sandi2]

I want her to feel like I'm the one dumping her for crossing that line

And that is why I don't think it will go as you want. The only way she'll feel you are dumping her, is for you to actually leave. That's the only thing that will carry weight, once you confront her.

I'm prepared to give up all our friendly dates and outings. She can feel what it's like not to call on me for anything. No more asking me to bring her a snack or trying to tell me she's going to the store and then 5 minutes later asking if I want to join her. I will be closed for anything than other than civil neighborly interaction.

Maybe you are prepared to pull back on dates/outings and not be your usual friendly, accommodating self, but are you really prepared to leave the M? Do you honestly think being less accommodating will be enough to spur her into ending her A, once you let her know that you know? It won't. That's why it puts more pressure on the H to be tougher.

Upon confrontation, the WW may deny the A............but at any rate, she may claim OM has nothing to do with her change of feelings toward you. She'll say that the M was over before OM came along. She may take that opportunity to tell you she doesn't love you any more and wants out of the M. She may also claim she can't trust you again, b/c you invaded her privacy and looked at her messages.

What if she admits the truth? What if she says she won't end it? It's rare, but it does happen. Then what?

My guess is that she'll get angry at you for snooping, and she'll claim they are just friends. I think she'll tell you she doesn't know what she wants, and that's how she'll leave it. Then what do you do?

[44tries]

And that is why I don't think it will go as you want. The only way she'll feel you are dumping her, is for you to actually leave. That's the only thing that will carry weight, once you confront her.

This is what I was afraid of. I feel very powerless in the fact that I don't have any logistical leverage. It's not that I wouldn't be willing to leave, it just would cause a whole different set of hardships for me. Feels like a lose, lose.

Maybe you are prepared to pull back on dates/outings and not be your usual friendly, accommodating self, but are you really prepared to leave the M? Do you honestly think being less accommodating will be enough to spur her into ending her A, once you let her know that you know? It won't. That's why it puts more pressure on the H to be tougher.

I didn't really think of it like I am trying to spur her to end her A. More like make sure she knows she doesn't have me as plan B. Right now, she likely thinks I am a clueless fool who she could run back to without much resistance. How do I change that? I didn't really think I had any influence over her ending the A. Only over how much she feels she has to sacrifice me for it.

I'm imagining I'm holding onto a bag of a million dollars hanging out of an airplane. Someone is telling me if I let go of the bag, there is x% chance I get 2 million dollars. But, if I don't let go, I get nothing, not even the bag I won't let go of. Logically, the answer is obvious. But for some reason I cannot let go of the bag. In my head right now, confronting her and telling her I want nothing to do with her is letting go of the bag. It feels like the right thing and I'm trying to force myself to do it. But maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way... It feels almost like you are saying the strategy could be a good one, but you don't think I'm tough/strong enough to actually do it (no offense taken). If it was executed perfectly, do you think it's my best chance or is it categorically the wrong way to go?

Upon confrontation, the WW may deny the A............but at any rate, she may claim OM has nothing to do with her change of feelings toward you. She'll say that the M was over before OM came along. She may take that opportunity to tell you she doesn't love you any more and wants out of the M. She may also claim she can't trust you again, b/c you invaded her privacy and looked at her messages.

She has certainly denied it up to this point, so I don't doubt it is a real possibility. Everything you are saying makes sense, Sandi. It's the reason I am not sold on confronting her.

What if she admits the truth? What if she says she won't end it? It's rare, but it does happen. Then what?

I didn't realize it was that rare for confrontation to be met with admission. Surely, most of the time it is true and there is a strong if not total amount of certainty from the accuser? It's actually hard for to imagine telling her I know and having her still deny it. But, you're right even if she concedes, I could very well be in a worse spot. Like I said, my main thought is just that at least she will be shaken with the fact that I am disgusted and have no trust or desire for her right now and I can avoid playing the "games" like doodler mentioned.

My guess is that she'll get angry at you for snooping, and she'll claim they are just friends. I think she'll tell you she doesn't know what she wants, and that's how she'll leave it. Then what do you do?

Well if she knows I snooped, I don't know how she could claim that. What I saw left absolutely no room for 'friendship'....anyway thank you Sandi, I completely agree with everything you've said here. You have talked me down from the ledge for now, but I still feel very conflicted about remaining so powerless in the situation. I am very clear that until she gains some respect back, and has some real fear of losing me, I don't stand much chance. You said earlier, do you really think stopping the accommodation is enough to bring her around? No, I don't.

[44tries]

Forgot to add--I have read a lot of posts from you about how you have never seen a successful in-house separation. I agree, it's a less than ideal situation. But it's pretty discouraging to hear that and I'm not sure what to do about it.

I am starting to get a little ahead of myself and go down the over-analyzing tunnel. This week I am going to try to post more on my GAL and me stuff. Weekends are always sort of a vortex sucking me in because W is home and we spend more time together.

[MRay]

In house separations are not a fun place to be, I know. I feel for you. Regarding your decision to confront or not, I can only tell you about my experience and my thoughts a couple months after I did it. So here goes a fairly detailed explanation.

I am very glad I confronted W. I'd do it differently now, but I can't change it. I had suspicions for awhile, but the day I had evidence I couldn't wait to confront her. I found texts in the morning before she left for work, and I stewed all day. How I stood in front of rooms full of people and lectured that day I don't know. I had a whole thing planned out to say assuming she would deny it, but she came clean immediately. I took her into our bedroom and asked for compete, brutal honesty. Well, she gave it. I asked her what she goes to bed thinking about every night (their texts included some about wanting to fall asleep next to each other). Her face went pale, she looked to the floor, and quietly said "him." I thought I was prepared for this. I wasn't. My stern disposition immediately cracked, and I started crying. I cry when I'm both angry or sad, so the combination was impossible for me to stop. She said she only developed these feelings since divorce became a real possibility. I told her that's not fair blah blah blah all weak statements out of me. She was surprised I didn't kick her out of the house. Looking back, I wish I had.

I knew OM was still at their school, and I grabbed my keys and went to leave. She asked where I was going, and I told her I was going to confront OM. She said, "I think you should." This stopped me dead in my tracks. It was the opposite of what I expected. Why would she think this? I asked her. She said she thought we(me and OM) should talk about it. Looking back, I think she expected me to listen to him and understand that they were in love. They were just friends that grew into something more.That there was nothing sinister behind, it and he would treat her right and that I should be happy for them. I waited until the next day, because I didn't want to go to my old work and beat the crap out of one of the teachers there. If I went that night it probably would have happened. The next day I confronted OM, and he seemed to feel true remorse. More than W at least. He agreed to end all contact with her (at least until we divorced if it came to that). W was furious when I told her this. She contacted him the next day and he told her he wouldn't talk to her anymore beyond what was necessary for work, and I believe this to be true. He told her he didn't want to be the reason a family fell apart (I actually think he means it as naive as I might be, but if we do divorce I have no doubt they will get together).

The following day she had some sort of mental breakdown you may have read about in my thread. I'm sure it was from him distancing from her. She's now in limbo trying to decide between staying with our family and being alone (her words, she says he does not factor into her thought process but I call BS). I tell you all this so I can say what I wish I had done differently. The way I confronted OM was the right thing to do in my particular situation. We know each other, and sadly I trust him to honor the no contact rule more than W. This is why I wish I was harder on her when I was confronting her. The A ended because I talked OM into it, not because my wife chose to end it. I didn't shock her out of her fog, he did. I wish I had told her to grab some clothes and get out. That she was not welcome in our house until she ended the A. That I would not be with a woman that disrespected me like this. You see, I'm prepared for losing her now. I wasn't then.

How this would have played out, I don't know. I might be worse off for all I know. I just wish I had shown more strength during the confrontation. I wish I had shown more backbone. I wish I had respected myself like I do over 2 months later. I'm not an expert and can't give you advice that I know will work, but maybe you can learn from my experience. If you choose to confront, be calm, stern, and collected. Be prepared for anything. Know what you want to get out of it and know what you are prepared to do. I wasn't and regret it. Best of luck with whatever you choose to do.

[44tries]

MRay, Please know how much I appreciate your story. Thank you for sharing it. I have actually been looking through the boards trying to find examples of people faced with the confrontation dilemma.

I must say your W's response was pretty promising, relatively speaking. I think you got through a huge obstacle on your journey if the A is truly over, and I'm really glad for you. If I knew my W would act similarly, I probably wouldn't hesitate as much. How did you find the messages? Did you have to 'snoop', and if so, was she upset?

I hadn't even considered the possibility of contacting the OM. I do know him, but not well enough to be sure of his character. For some reason, I just assumed this was a huge no-no and would cause her to hate me forever. But you provide an interesting illustration of an alternative.

I totally understand about the need for strength and coolness during the confrontation. I am very worried about it turning into something like you described. I know how difficult it is and despite all I have learned and grown, that would be like an ultimate test. Am I really prepared to do what it takes (lose her) to actually shake her fog? Like you said, you were only at that place two months later. But I don't really see how I can delay it. I either confront her now or essentially gamble on the A ending on it's own "within 6 months" as MWD says. If I confront her later, I fear I will just look weak regardless.



Thank you all for your feedback. Even though it may be conflicting, it's great to look at it from all angles.

[MRay]

Yes, I had to snoop to get the info. I couldn't ignore my instincts any longer. As part of my confrontation I wouldn't allow her to have her phone in her room for a few weeks. I spent that time reading through all their messages (I couldn't sleep, enjoyed torturing myself apparently, and wanted to confirm certain things they said). After awhile I let her take it into her room because I felt it was ridiculous. If she wanted to talk to him she could. And that would mean we were over. I made that very clear. She has never said anything about being upset or anything like that for my snooping. Whether she is or not I don't really know. And like I said, the A isn't currently on (that I know of), but I'm sure she still wants it. Her feelings for OM are still there, and she is only not acting on them because he won't for now. That's why I wish I could change the way I confronted her. I'm pretty sure she hasn't left because she doesn't know for sure that he will have her and all her baggage now that he's been confronted with it.

For full disclosure. She didn't change her phone's password until we officially decided to divorce about 3 weeks ago. She immediately changed it at this point, so I couldn't snoop now if I wanted to even though we're back in limbo. I'm sure if I asked she'd show me, but I feel that would be weak and counterproductive.

[sandi2]

Right now, she likely thinks I am a clueless fool who she could run back to without much resistance. How do I change that?

Well, that's what we hope to accomplish. I won't say there will never be a time for you to confront her. I'm saying the time is not now. You aren't ready.

I didn't really think I had any influence over her ending the A. Only over how much she feels she has to sacrifice me for it.

I don't know if you realize it, but that last sentence is very good.....and says volumes. Becoming that man only a fool would sacrifice for an affair is admirable. Unfortunately, there are a lot fools running around out there.......but if you come through this ordeal being a better man, then you will have gained something very valuable that a piece of paper doesn't determine. Know what I mean? In other words, a marriage license or a divorce decree does not make the man. You make the man.

In my head right now, confronting her and telling her I want nothing to do with her is letting go of the bag. It feels like the right thing and I'm trying to force myself to do it. But maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way... It feels almost like you are saying the strategy could be a good one, but you don't think I'm tough/strong enough to actually do it (no offense taken). If it was executed perfectly, do you think it's my best chance or is it categorically the wrong way to go?

I really believe you are thinking of tactics. Someone suggests confrontation and you can't get it out of your head until you do it. I've watched this played out over the past eleven years of reading stories on this forum. If it was executed perfectly? Yes, it would probably be your best chance. Do you know how to execute it perfectly? It very seldom goes the way the H imagines. If you don't know much about the mindset of a wayward, then you will be sorely disappointed in the outcome.

I didn't realize it was that rare for confrontation to be met with admission. Surely, most of the time it is true and there is a strong if not total amount of certainty from the accuser? It's actually hard for to imagine telling her I know and having her still deny it.

Listen, women have denied it when the H would play a recording of the lovers having sex, show photos of them together, and a record of all their text messages. I can count on one hand how rare it is for a WW to admit her affair when the H confronts her.

Like I said, my main thought is just that at least she will be shaken with the fact that I am disgusted and have no trust or desire for her right now and I can avoid playing the "games" like doodler mentioned.

This is what concerns me. You are placing too much hope in emotions. You don't even understand the makeup of a wayward W. No, she won't be shaken! She doesn't care what you think about her.

I kept trying to get you to say what you expected when you confronted her. Now I know you hoped she would feel sorry about it, and above all, would not want to lose your respect and trust in her. I wish it was that simple. In the mindset of a wayward, that's kind of like.........the side effects. If the side effects are not bigger than the high she gets from her drug of choice (which is her EA), then she won't stop the drug. See what I mean? The side effects may be uncomfortable, but she's hooked on the drug and she'll keep it until it's not worth the side effects. But remember, you are dealing with an illogical person. Therefore, you will have to get really tough (side effects), live with it, or get out of it. There are only three choices.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
My guess is that she'll get angry at you for snooping, and she'll claim they are just friends. I think she'll tell you she doesn't know what she wants, and that's how she'll leave it. Then what do you do?

Well if she knows I snooped, I don't know how she could claim that.

She can! WW's can twist things around and get the H so confused he doesn't know if he's coming or going. She would make this a case about you violating her privacy.

I completely agree with everything you've said here. You have talked me down from the ledge for now, but I still feel very conflicted about remaining so powerless in the situation. I am very clear that until she gains some respect back, and has some real fear of losing me, I don't stand much chance. You said earlier, do you really think stopping the accommodation is enough to bring her around? No, I don't.

For today, I am trying to keep you from jumping off into something you don't know what you are doing. Newcomer make a big leap, then come back crying and asking what to do next. They don't wait long enough to learn a few things before leaping. See, guys get these things on their brain and then can't rest until they do it. It's like an obsession! What I want you to do is calm down and put aside the thought of confronting her........for a little while anyway, okay? Jumping into something blindfolded is not a good way to get the results you want. Too many guys do that and then realize the results wasn't what he thought he'd get.

I don't want you to feel powerless, and that is why I have been trying to get you to hold back confronting her, at this time. Like I said previously, the only power you have is to have your bags packed and setting at the door when you tell her you will not stay with a cheater (or however you word it). It can't be a bluff. When you feel confident enough that you aren't doing it as some tactic, then you can confront her. But until you are serious and ready......really ready to walk out that door for good, I can't see how you are going to benefit from a confrontation. I want you to understand the possibilities, and I felt like you were jumping at this with unrealistic expectations. What I mean to say is that you don't have enough information about DBing under your belt yet. Plus, wayward wives are the most illogical people on the planet. You imagine her responding like a caring wife who had any sense would respond, right? She won't.

Pulling back on the accommodating stuff, alone, is probably not enough to bring her around. However, it is a good starting point for what you need to do in becoming a man only a fool would sacrifice for an A. If you want to save this M, then you need to make some big changes. I'm not talking about changes to appease her. I'm talking about becoming an attractive, dominant male who your W will respect and love.

I want you to get on line and do some reading on the subject of how to show male dominance in marriage. Read everything you can find about the dominant male. Okay?

[sandi2]

Forgot to add--I have read a lot of posts from you about how you have never seen a successful in-house separation. I agree, it's a less than ideal situation. But it's pretty discouraging to hear that and I'm not sure what to do about it.

Yes, and that's another reason I don't think you would get your desired results if you confronted your W about her A, at this time. She could always throw it up that you are separated.

I don't believe in-house separation works b/c the couple is not separated. Like you said, you are going on dates and outings, fixing her something to eat, catering to her.........so other than not sleeping together, what has changed due to the separation?

Some people believe if the couple is separated, they are free to date. Whatever your personal view......and your W's views.......it is still not like being physically separated. Were any ground rules established when this in-house separation took place? (Don't say anything to her about it, I'm just asking you).

Don't repeat anything you read to your W........unless we tell you to say something specifically.

Weekends are always sort of a vortex sucking me in because W is home and we spend more time together.

Your W takes you for granted. You can cause mystery and draw interest if you'll follow a few things I suggest. Women are curious by nature, so expect her to drill you about your whereabouts and activity and who is with you. Don't lie to her, but be vague. Use as few words as possible to answer.

You wanted to shake her up, so why don't you start being gone when she gets home from work? Do this a few times through the week, staying out a little bit longer every time. Let her fix her own dinner. Then by the weekend, have something planned that will keep you out really late. After all, you are separated, aren't you? The first time you are gone when she gets home, she'll be calling, wanting to know where you are and when you intend to fix her dinner. Just tell her to go ahead and eat without you, and you'll be home in a while. If she wants to know what you are doing.........how will you respond? Remember, few words.

When you are home, always have something you are doing, so you don't follow her around.....and so that you aren't eager to talk with her. Do not accommodate her. That is going to be a new rule for you, I hope. The only exceptions is if she is sick, or something like that, okay? Don't try to sound like a jerk, but neither should you be too concerned about it. I can say this to you in your particular sitch, b/c you are too nice. You need to break some bad habits that you've formed in this relationship.

I'm going to start a list, and you may want to add to it. These are your No More Rules.

* No more being her errand boy whenever she is in another part of the house and wants you to take something to her.
* No more fixing her food whenever she says she doesn't know what she wants to eat.
* No more changing your plans when she tells you, without fair notice, she wants you to help her in the yard, or some other job that will take a considerable amount of time.
* No more hungrily waiting to talk with her when she gets home from work.
* No more over-explaining yourself.