WW, A ended, but struggling to reconnect (My 11th)

[hoosjim]

Ok, so we have a telemedicine session, joint, this evening, and there are a couple of issues that might come up that I wanted folks' take on.

First of all, quick note, our conversation got started last night when we were discussing how to handle the appointment time we scheduled for tonight. We had blocked it off with the counselor, but not specified whether or not we were going to handle it as a joint session or whether one of us was going to take it as an individual. At some point, wife says to me, "you know, every time we've gone down there in the past for the intentions, you have been very talkative on the way back. This time, it seemed like you were very quiet and I was wondering the whole way back if something was wrong." Now, the funny thing about this, is that I was thinking the same thing about her on the way back, and I told her so last night. Know that there was nothing inordinately traumatic about the sessions last week, nor were there any big Revelations. It just seemed like both of us we're waiting on the other one to say something on the way back and neither one did.

Anyway, first issue,somewhat minor, and it actually came up when we were talking last night, and was, incidentally, the "immediate" reason we were discussing the use of the counseling session for Wednesday (today):

Periodically, and for about the past year and a half or so, she has been staying after work with friends to talk, decompress, and share a bottle of wine. Sometimes these get-togethers involve most of her office, and even a couple outside of the office friends of one of the doctors. Other times, though, and on two or three occasions, it has been as few as her, her close work girlfriend, and one of the male doctors there, and probably an equal number of times has just been those three plus one additional girl with whom W is friendly at office. This male doctor is the one who has always provided the wine for these get-togethers as he keeps a stock in his office. My wife's girlfriend is significantly younger, late twenties, and a single mom. The doctor is our age, and married. I am friendly with and like both the doctor and his wife, and, over the past couple of months, as wife has increasingly let me into the circle, I have become friends with her work girlfriend, who is very nice, and very Christian, and at least seems to be very interested in helping W and I reconnect. (She was the one W and I spent late NY Eve together with after W brought up the idea because GF was alone-- her family lives in New York-- and "had no one" to be with that night-- it was actually a fun and good evening)

During my wife's affair, these after work get togethers were a trigger point for me, because she would frequently be very late getting home from work without further explanation, or, at best, she would vaguely say "I am just going to hang out for a little bit after work with everyone and I'll be back soon" but then she wouldn't be back soon at all and would never update me by phone or text. I am uncertain as to whether or not she ever used those blocks of time at any point to see the OM, but I think it is probably likely, all things considered. Now, wife and I have discussed these get-togethers fairly extensively, as well as, obviously, the affair, and she understands and accepts that they are a trigger point for me, and, accordingly, when she does go to them, always lets me know ahead of time as well as letting me know who is going to be there, and then she always updates me via phone or text when she is going to be late. A couple of times they have even called me from the get-together and joked around and talked with me on the phone. (And work gf also sort of obliquely invited me last time saying "you should really come by and hang out with us, Hoosjim"... though W has not extended a similar invite and I have not brought it up.

On a couple of occasions previously, I have implied to W that I am not completely comfortable with the dynamic, for two reasons: One, that her being late home from work was often code for her seeing OM, or at least that there were many times where she just "disappeared into a black hole and I had no idea" and, Two, that I am not sure I was completely comfortable with the dynamic. The latter concern was always voiced in terms of "So what does Doctor's Wife think about him hanging out after work, by himself, drinking wine, with two or more attractive women, in his office?"

Now, let me reiterate that W is "friends" with both the Doctor and his W, that when we were at the Christmas party that was at Dr's house, Dr.'s wife got fairly tipsy and my wife spent a lot of time hanging out with her and taking care of her and keeping her out of trouble and putting her to bed, etc., so they clearly like each other. (And, yes, this is also the doctor that she gave the warm hug to on the way out the door that made me a bit resentful-- and I have told her that as well). I also know doctor (who seems to me to be, and by all accounts and from what most people say is a "good man") and wife and am friendly with them, though I don't see them enough probably to properly call them "friends", and W has suggested us all "going out" together in the recent past on a couple of occasions. Further color is that I believe, based on observation and from scattered and somewhat vague "scuttlebutt" that Dr's marriage might be somewhat strained because of his W's drinking... which is why he keeps his wine at his office.

Anyhoo, W calls me yesterday afternoon from work and says "Work GF and Dr. are asking me if I can stay after for a bit tomorrow to hang out, but I know we had scheduled that MC session... are we going to do that as a joint or as IC?" I am at work and she is at work, and she is being somewhat discrete about our sitch as am I so I tell her: well, let's keep it on the books and talk about it this evening when we get home" and she says "Okay, that's my priority, but I wanted to make sure."

So, when we are talking about how to configure the session tonight, and going over some of the stuff MC gave us to go over, we have the talk about why neither of us talked and neither of us brought up the homework that MC assigned (though it turns out W had reviewed the materials on her own after last week's session) until 6 days later. After we decide we will do it as a joint, I tell W (and maybe this was a mistake) "You know, in the spirit of complete honesty, I have to tell you something... I am not completely comfortable with the dynamic of you staying after work with a married man and one other girl, and I kind of wonder, as you know, what Dr's wife thinks of it..." To which W responds "She (doctor's wife, who periodically works in that office as a nurse/aide and who on a couple of occasions has herself attended these after work get-togethers) has never said anything that I know of so AFAIK she is okay with it" and "It's never behind closed doors, There's almost always other people there as well... our other friend a lot, and Dr. X and Dr. Y sometimes pop their heads in, and then last week girl 3 and girl 4 were there, too... This is the one thing, apart from seeing bff probably once a month these days, that I have of "my own"... I don't see what's so unusual or troubling about hanging out with a couple of people whose company I enjoy." And here she was getting a little emotional, as she did the time a couple of weeks back where I brought up being a little triggered by her being home very late from work after a similar get-together where, admittedly, she had kept in touch with me, and then "missing her exit" and ending up in the neck of the woods where OM's bar is, sort of the same demeanor as she had then when she got all teary and was like "how long are we going to stay focused on this one thing, like the only problem with the MR is me and what I did". (That was what she had said last month in a MC session, not last night, but her demeanor was similar.) My response was "You have told me so many times how you do not know at exactly what point you 'crossed the line' with OM, just that you obviously 'let him in' too much and let things get too close and intimate with him... that clearly there were not sufficient boundaries. And, I understand as you have told me that you have always been more comfortable being around and being friends with men than you have been around women..." [very true, this is something she told me as far back as when we first met, and she does have a lot of male friends but always wanted to be 'just friends' with them-- which was a problem for and confusing for some of the guys especially because she has always been so touchy/warm-- something which also always frustrated her and she never completely understood] "...But, here you are, hanging out after hours in a usually empty office with a married man with as few as one other person there with you... this doctor and two women, one single and one married. I just... are you aware of the dynamic, there? Are you "letting him in" too much? Is he "letting you in" too much?"

We talked a bit more about it back and forth. I told her I didn't want her to "stop being her", and I didn't want her to stop hanging out with her friends, I just wanted her to know how I felt about it and that, on a sliding scale, I was decreasingly comfortable with it the fewer people that were there with her and the doctor, and that I am pretty sure I definitely would not want her there alone with the doctor in that same situation. For W's part, she seemed surprised and wondered if I thought she was "looking for someone" or "on the hunt" and said she was sure that doctor did nothave anything like that on his mind, and I said I was less worried about "something going on" between her and doctor than I was about her maintaining proper boundaries to keep something like the A from happening again. I also copped to feeling some jealousy now from time to time, including when she hugged the doctor at the Christmas party.

Not sure there was any "resolution" to this issue... and I am not sure I would want to tell her "you need to stop doing this", because she DOES need to have friends (she got really tearful last night when she talked about her bff moving out of state in a couple of months-- "Im trying to deal with it.. I don't really have any other close friends") and, in a perfect world where we were "solid" and I was fully confident in our relationship I would not have any qualms about her hanging out in those types of situations. But... it is fairly likely to come up in session tonight, so any thoughts on how to approach it without looking either "weak" or "unconfident" or "domineering" would be appreciated.

Issue two: The Beach Trip Which Must Not Be Named. I have brought this up a few times, here. Last July, before we had our final confrontation/BD/blow-up where she finally broke down and broke contact with OM and decided to "work on us", she left the family beach trip to go to a previously-planned "girls weekend" at a different beach with bff and another gf. She had waffled back and forth all week about going: "Maybe I'll just go home with you guys and not go", but, ultimately, when we packed up from the family trip and headed back, she hopped in the car and drove to the other beach to see bff and gf. Later, I found out (through idiot OM's posting pictures about it on FB) that OM had been at the beach, just three blocks away from where W was staying, during the same time period. I have told W a couple of times, I think October might have been the last, that I know OM was there and that, under the circumstances, the closeness of hers and bff's relationship with him, how much they stayed in contact, and for how long the girls trip had been planned (since the previous January), I found it impossible to believe that they and OM did not each know that the other was going to be there, and that I found it only slightly less unbelievable that they didn't see each other while they were there. W's responses about that were (July-- "I have nothing to say about that, maybe you should ask bff", and October-- "I don't know what you want me to say about that.. there's nothing to tell..." or something to that effect.) For further color, there are some suspicious phone records from that night-- W calling bff's phone after midnight (why weren't they together) and some other calls/texts, and W had installed and then uninstalled "WhatsApp" while there. I never told W I had checked the phone records, though I did mention the WhatsApp saying it popped up on my own phone when I was looking at that app for me, and she said she never used it, just installed and uninstalled. She also had called me the morning of her return and said she had taken a "long long walk on the beach by herself, and done a lot of thinking" and later that she "didn't want to be that person who was 'The Cheater'" so I am wondering if something "happened" between her and Om and that it didn't feel right or made her feel really guilty or the like...

At any rate, all of that... the beach and whatever happened there... are clearly in the pre-ultimatum, pre-breakdown "we're working on this" phase and so would be "covered" under any forgiveness I am granting for the Affair. However... it gnaws at me. She left a family vacation (we cut it short by choice but without her looming girls weekend prolly would all have stayed another day or two)... her kids... to go see OM, or at least to go to a beach where she know Om was going to be. And then, when she was late getting home on her return day and I got angry because she wanted to "extend" the weekend by going to have lunch with bff (and for all I know at that time the lunch could have included OM) she had the gall to say "I was thinking about you guys on the way home and I was going to give everyone a big hug and say how much I missed everyone, and now this.." and be a little ticked or self-righteous at me. (And remember this was all about two to three weeks prior to me finding her second burner phone where I walked away and she finally broke down.)

This is something I actually discussed in IC with the counselor, under the rubric of "things I should or should not bring up, and how I should bring them up when I do in a constructive manner" and IC asked me "well, you may need to ask yourself is knowing that information necessary to the rebuilding of your MR? Can you live without knowing it and, if you did know it, could you live happily with that if it was something you didn't want to hear?" I told MC that I think I had it in me to let it go in general, however I would anticipate a similar "girls beach weekend" at some point in the future, and at that point I mam not sure I would be able to either keep silent about it or give my blessing to her to go knowing what I know and strongly suspecting that she had never come clean about it. I have told W several times that that there are very few things which build my trust in her more than when she shares something difficult like that with me, and few things which damage my trust more than when I find out she has not been completely candid or honest about something relating to the A.

So, collective braintrust, WRT both of these issues: Should I bring them up again, and, if so, how, and what are ways of discussing them that might prove CONstructive as opposed to DEstructive.

Thanks as always.

[Coconut]

This is something I actually discussed in IC with the counselor, under the rubric of "things I should or should not bring up, and how I should bring them up when I do in a constructive manner" and IC asked me "well, you may need to ask yourself is knowing that information necessary to the rebuilding of your MR? Can you live without knowing it and, if you did know it, could you live happily with that if it was something you didn't want to hear?"

You recently asked if you are piecing. This is the type of thing you frequently see in piecing, and be prepared, it gets much harder once the high of "getting her back" starts to wear off.

My opinion is that it would be difficult to move forward questioning what actually happened, I mean that in the general sense, not by knowing every little detail, but how much you want to know is a personal thing. For me, I don't think I'd be able to truly fall in love and be vulnerable if I had lingering questions about things that may or may not have happened, or wondering if I was or wasn't lied to about answers that didn't sit right with me.

When I divorced, I found myself no longer caring about those things, but it was always on my mind when I thought about being with her again. Maybe in time that wondering goes away as you piece and grow closer, but I don't know for sure because I never got that far into it.

My opinion, if you are going to want to know, the earlier you find out and she opens up about it, the better. Having a discussion about any details and her being honest about things that are going to hurt you, is something that is hard on both sides and any progress in bonding can back slide quite a bit.. I think it's better to know what is going to be known before deciding to stay together, you know, informed decision.


As for the after work wine socializing.. I agree that it appears very inappropriate, but I also recognize that after coming here, we are over sensitized to these types of things compared to the rest of the world. I don't really think discussing this specific topic is helpful, I think it's better discussed in a more general topic of boundaries (as you mentioned several times).

At some point, specific "training" on boundaries needs to happen with your W (in counseling would probably be best). I think that if you are comfortable that she understands and has boundaries, that she knows how to recognize when boundaries are being crossed, and knows how to enforce those boundaries, you will be able to trust her in these types of situations. Like anything, thinking about how to respond in situations makes it easier to do so when needed, rather than trying to figure everything out when it happens.

[Vanilla]

I haven't posted to you before and have had to research your sitch a little and take some notes.

I am going to tackle this from a different angle, the reason is that my thoughts are that a lot of psychology on this doesn't make good sense in sitches where there has been cheating.

Regret v Remorse

It is often in 12 steps that we have to atone. To atone one needs remorse as humility and the desire to put right the wrong is important. Atoning needs to be in a way that fits the need of the one who was wronged.

Regret is not remorse. Regret never needs to atone.

You as the wronged person can't move on until you know there is true remorse and that has been atoned in a reasonable way. If there has been no atoning then it will keep nagging at you.

Atoning is not punishing and must be appropriate. That may mean say no girls night out at beaches for 2 years, but not forever!

You may wish to Google the difference between remorse and regret for yourself.

Forgiveness

To my philosophy there is no need to forgive someone at all. Some things are unforgiveable such as the abuse of a child or cheating with 9OW. I don't believe forgiveness is required but letting go of resentment is important. Letting the black bile go will certainly help you in your progress.

I leave forgiveness between the higher power and the other. Not my job at all, I am not a higher power and don't have that job. I ask for forgiveness for myself and can't be upset if another doesn't forgive me as long as my forgiveness is for myself. Forcing yourself to forgive will create guilt and shame in you if you find that impossible.

My philosophy is based on Jeanne Safer's work on forgiveness.


Trust and Love

Trust and love are separate states. You can trust someone and not love them and visa versa.

Trust can not be demanded nor given. It isn't wise to trust someone who isn't trustworthy. Trust isn't mandatory for love. You could for instance trust someone with money but not your heart. You could trust their timekeeping but not them to look after your car. It's not an all or nothing thing. It's fine to check in areas you are uncertain.

You can love and not trust. That is fine. Your trust is your business not the other, it's yours to manage.

Your trust is your business and it is not mandatory.

It's abusive to force someone to earn your trust! It's controlling and unnecessary. If you can trust when it's appropriate that's great but it isn't necessary.

The need to know

Some peeps need details as part of remorse, others are happy if atoning is adequate.

Some things need to be clear, you may not want or need all the details but enough to assess the risk and if what you know doesn't fit or seems untruthful then you will need more. It's inevitable your spider sense is tingling.

------------------------------

I think you can't let go because W hasn't atoned to you and there appears insufficient remorse. In that case you will want to be clear on what you need in terms of remorse and atoning. Together with a time frame.

If things don't seem right, don't add up and you can't assess the risk then it will keep cropping up. You will keep questioning it.

Don't be told you should or you need to forgive and forget. That too is your concern and only yours.

Those are my thoughts.

V

[sandi2]

I don't know if your W understands what it means to affair proof the M. I leaned through my own experience that knowing you trust each other, is not enough to keep you from stepping over the line into that inappropriate area. Claiming to like men more than women for friends......is not good enough. Claiming to not have hung out with very many since the A (boohoo).........is not good enough. The fact that one or two other women are with her and the attractive doctor while they drink.......is not good enough. Is it? Did she do this long before her A, or has it started since the A?

Your W is either insensitive to your pain after her cheating, or she is not behaving like an educated woman who has learned from experience how to affair proof the M. What will it take for her to realize she cannot repeat similar scenarios, without the high risks? Maybe the MC is failing to talk about that part. The spouses have to affair proof their MR as much as possible. Sounds to me like the MC has not addressed what clear boundary lines look like in a MR after an A.

[hoosjim]

I don't know if your W understands what it means to affair proof the M. I leaned through my own experience that knowing you trust each other, is not enough to keep you from stepping over the line into that inappropriate area. Claiming to like men more than women for friends......is not good enough. Claiming to not have hung out with very many since the A (boohoo).........is not good enough. The fact that one or two other women are with her and the attractive doctor while they drink.......is not good enough. Is it? Did she do this long before her A, or has it started since the A?

Your W is either insensitive to your pain after her cheating, or she is not behaving like an educated woman who has learned from experience how to affair proof the M. What will it take for her to realize she cannot repeat similar scenarios, without the high risks? Maybe the MC is failing to talk about that part. The spouses have to affair proof their MR as much as possible. Sounds to me like the MC has not addressed what clear boundary lines look like in a MR after an A.

This took up the bulk of the MC session on Wednesday. In fact, we were already discussing it when the MC dialed in to the teleconf session. I had called her on way home because we were going to be getting home too close to session start time and I had wanted to continue our discussion about the "Wine Downs" at work.

Basically, I told her I was more concerned about her understanding of appropriate boundaries and not making the same mistakes we had made before rather than any specific thing like the "Wine Downs" which, at least at the moment, appear to be "innocent" if ill-advised. Reminded her this particular concern was particularly apt because she still couldn't say "exactly how/when she crossed the line" with OM, so I thought we should be trying to identify what those boundaries should be so didn't make same mistakes again. Also told her my main concerns arose when she was not keeping me advised of where she was and when or when she sprung things on me at the last minute (surprises) both of which she has actually been doing very good with recently. Told her I wanted her to "have a life outside of us", as I did for me, but that I obviously wanted the priority to be on us, and especially so when we are trying to work our own troubles out in the MR.

For her part, she said that with the OM, while she couldn't say exactly when she "crossed the line" that she was in a place due to having "stepped out of the marriage" and "being done" that she felt like that was something she could do, the implication being that now, where we are now, she does not feel like she is "out of the marriage" and so does not consider herself vulnerable to such line crossing. Also, she said that these get-togethers were just social, not intimate, and that most of the conversation had to do with goings on at work and letting off associated steam (it is a pretty hectic workplace with quite a bit of disgruntlement amongst employees for various things.)

We also discussed her feelings of having to "check in" or "ask permission" to do things, which she said she always felt in the past like she had to do, but which sort of surprised me since I never thought I came across as any kind of jealous or suspicious or controlling. She pointed out that I had been just saying over recent months whenever I was going somewhere that "I am going to__________" and that was it... I never asked her feelings on it or "if it was okay." This is, of course, true... I have been doing that ever since 180-ing, and GAL-ing while A was ongoing. She said that seems kind of like a double standard.

Ended up by pointing out the importance, in any marriage, of keeping each other informed and checking in with spouse before doing things or going places-- not as a control thing but just as a common courtesy thing.

Since you asked about these after work get-togethers, she probably started doing them a few months, say 6, before the A started--probably about 2 years ago. Sort of coincided with her whole bff- inspired effort to "expand her social circle" and her mentally/emotionally "stepping out" of the marriage.

Re: BFF, who is moving away to a distant state in June, W said-- "I think I would like to be able to go visit bff once every two to three months-- airfares are cheap to there, what do you think about that?" My response was that it was kind of situtational, and I thought to myself having to see ANY friend, that far away, that often seemed a little unusual, but that, in general, she could make her own decisions about what friends she wanted to see-- she knows how I feel about bff and about how I view that dynamic. In that context, discussed what are "button pushing" situations for me, most profound of which are "girls weekends" and that, given her silence on their beach weekend last July where OM was at same beach and I know for a fact he was at same beach but they have never acknowledged it, I don't think that that particular type of trip I would be willing to sit still for her taking. That was her opening to open up about that trip but she did not, instead saying "We won't be planning any more beach trips" and also saying that when she went to the beach last Fall to get away that she "did so alone" (which I also believe-- I was still monitoring her at that time.) But nothing further did she say either denying or acknowledging that anything happened WRT OM at that July trip. And, yes, that still bothers me.

MC assigned us some reading and trust-building exercises as well as some touch exercises.

From my own IC sessions, it seems clear that MC will talk to her about boundaries and avoiding past mistakes and affair-proofing, and, as well, some of the readings and exercises she gave us touch on those issues... but it will have to be me to bring those up, I think.

W said she would be making future IC sessions and asked me to show her how to work the video conferencing.

Other odds and ends: She seems excited about our Mexico birthday getaway in May... keeps asking about, asked yesterday if she could have a clothing allowance for cute beach and resort clothes.

I am being deliberate with lighter touch, giving her a hug and/or kiss on way out door in morning... still seems like that is fairly awkward for her. Going to have to take the initiative on the touch exercises MC gave us.




ANd to clarify, I did not directly respond to her question about wanting to go see bff at the time she raised it, it came up later in the context of button-pushing situations, and, even then, I did not indicate any sort of consent. In fact, the discussion about bff concerned particular triggers and trips, not her desire to see bff every three months. I did NOT tell her she could "see bff whenever she wanted" or "go see her every three months." At the time she made that initial comment I kind of let it pass and steered things back to what we had been talking about-- the "Wine Downs" and boundaries.

[hoosjim]

Also, to add: I want to clarify that, in a vacuum, i would not necessarily worry about or object to these after work get-togethers at all. (Unless they were just one on one with her and doctor, which they have not been and which she says she wouldn't do). They are not behind closed doors, or in secret, everyone in the office of approximately 30-35 people knows about them and apparently thinks nothing of them, and same goes for this doctor's wife. And, quite frankly, it is from the perspective of the Dr's wife, who apparently has no probleme with it... that i have a problem with it. I just think that putting myself in her shoes, if i was a woman... I'd be pretty concerned... more than concerned... about it. But i have never been to these so maybe i am missing something. At any rate, if W and I were "solid"-- no issues, no recent affair, confident in our MR, I wouldn't bat an eyelash at this... and wouldn't have batted an eyelash about it prior to things "going bad" with us... especially after W explained the dynamic and where they happened and who all came to them, etc.

Now, i understand that i am not in a vacuum, and that W has some responsibility to comport herself in certain ways but... I am the only one on the planet, apparently, who thinks this looks at least a little weird-- again mostly from the standpoint of the doctor's W.

From my own standpoint, the only reason it gives me pause is because i was (and still am, a bit) concerned that my W is not fully cognizant of the importance of respecting certain boundaries, especially given her past behavior. But, then again, if I have misconstrued or overblown these "Wine Downs", that may not be a terribly valid concern, either.

At least, thankfully, W seemed receptive to discussing the topic of boundaries, her previous violation of such boundaries, and the fact that her past behavior might impact where such boundaries should be for her, at least in the short term.

But she, and apparently everyone else on the planet, seems to think these things, as a social event, are harmless.



Oh, and another topic that came up at MC-- W asked me, when we started talking about the "Wine Downs": "I sometimes wonder if maybe it's just that you feel... left out, though maybe that is not the proper term. Maybe more that you have to be there and that you don't trust any social situation where i am alone and you are not there."

I found this an interesting take, especially the way she phrased it as "feeling left out"-- which sounded very VERY much like something bff (who has a dim view of me to begin with) would say-- and i told her as much, and also that i did not have any feelings of being "left out" and thought it important for BOTH of us to have our own friends and lives to bring to the MR, and to be able to do things, within appropriate bounds, on our own. Also told her, as i indicated above, that my objections or concerns were not related to any particular activity or place or event (with notable exception of girls weekends with bff), but rather with the more general idea that she did not previously recognize what the appropriate boundaries were with OM, and that she still might not recognize those boundaries and that that might put our progress and our MR at risk. She seemed to understand what i said, here, and accept it.



Dang, I just got a nice full-body hug. Heading out to go pick up my older son and College for spring break, I was talking with wife in the kitchen before I left, and she just looked really good, long blonde hair kind of tousled up, still in her boots and jeans from work... Just felt right so I said "Come here..." and pulled her in and gave her a hug which she didn't fight or Shrink frog and in fact reciprocated full body.

And I pulled away and said "now put those glasses back on and give me something to dream about." ( I had been teasing her earlier in a good-natured way about how she really have the sexy librarian thing going on tonight when she put on her glasses). She smiled and kind of dropped her head a little and said "get out of here" with a little push.

It was a nice moment. Staying over tonight in my son's college town and coming back early tomorrow morning.

Just thought I'd throw something positive out there on the boards since I've been leaning a little negative the last day or so

[sandi2]

She pointed out that I had been just saying over recent months whenever I was going somewhere that "I am going to__________" and that was it... I never asked her feelings on it or "if it was okay." This is, of course, true... I have been doing that ever since 180-ing, and GAL-ing while A was ongoing. She said that seems kind of like a double standard.

Are you still going out without asking about her feelings? I can see why she would feel it was a double standard. The board needs to talk about transitioning from a LBS to piecing, IMHO. (I may try to write down a few thoughts on it). If she is trying to walk the straight & narrow, then it would be considerate for both spouses to check with each other. I think you need to continue GAL, but as long as she is attempting to do what you've asked......then I think you should give her that consideration.

Since you asked about these after work get-togethers, she probably started doing them a few months, say 6, before the A started--probably about 2 years ago. Sort of coincided with her whole bff- inspired effort to "expand her social circle" and her mentally/emotionally "stepping out" of the marriage.

This may sound insignificant, but maybe you should not be telling her you want her to have a life apart from the MR. I know what you mean, and it may be just me.......but it could also be words that she might try to use to justify for not giving full disclosure. Where you see it as GAL in addition to the MR, she may see it as "stepping out" of the MR. It's probably just my over-cautious mind at work here.

My response was that it was kind of situtational, and I thought to myself having to see ANY friend, that far away, that often seemed a little unusual, but that, in general, she could make her own decisions about what friends she wanted to see

That ^^^^ may be your over-cautious mind at work. It's mine, also. I don't know what you can do about it, other than telling her you don't want her going, and forcing her to choose between you and BFF. I don't think it would go real well. Hopefully, the distance will help, and BFF will so involved with new people, their communication will taper off. That would help cool the interest down some......maybe..........hopefully.

From my own IC sessions, it seems clear that MC will talk to her about boundaries and avoiding past mistakes and affair-proofing, and, as well, some of the readings and exercises she gave us touch on those issues... but it will have to be me to bring those up, I think.

W said she would be making future IC sessions and asked me to show her how to work the video conferencing.

I agree, I think you'll have to lead here.

But she, and apparently everyone else on the planet, seems to think these things, as a social event, are harmless.

No, you aren't the only one with that opinion. I thought being too old fashion was behind my line of thinking. But why do you say this? Did your MC think it was just fine and dandy, knowing your W's history?

Dang, I just got a nice full-body hug. Heading out to go pick up my older son and College for spring break, I was talking with wife in the kitchen before I left, and she just looked really good, long blonde hair kind of tousled up, still in her boots and jeans from work... Just felt right so I said "Come here..." and pulled her in and gave her a hug which she didn't fight or Shrink frog and in fact reciprocated full body.

And I pulled away and said "now put those glasses back on and give me something to dream about." ( I had been teasing her earlier in a good-natured way about how she really have the sexy librarian thing going on tonight when she put on her glasses). She smiled and kind of dropped her head a little and said "get out of here" with a little push.

Very good! Spontaneous and sexy.

[sandi2]

Well..............????

[hoosjim]

She cashed out the bank account. Left town with the tow-truck driver. Didn't even leave a note.






I'm kidding. Just nothing really going on. S1 in town for spring break and S2 has had basketball playoffs. We're having our first "kid free" night in a while tonight.

She's been more snuggly in bed, and kissed me back when i went to give her a hug and a peck as i was leaving for work today... Kind of threw me cuz it was a first and unexpected. (No tongues)

[sandi2]

Well hey, no tongue kisses are better than nothing. Consisitant baby steps will eventually get you to where you're headed. She does seem to be putting forth more effort this time, don't you think?

Have a great kid-free night.