Bit of update of my thoughts. Actually had a bit bad conscience after talking quite roughly of my wife. I love this woman, but it just hurtīs so much to think she potentially has an affair... Where is this beautiful and innocent girl I married, I wonder. But reading other threads, I notice that this kind of behavior is actually paradigm of WW.
I was also thinking about confronting and what I actually win with that. She still is in the beginning of her WW journey, so I hardly think she would stop if she has A, rather just going more careful. And since I donīt have bullet proof evidence, she would deny everything anyways.
On the other hand, I have that much circumstantial evidence that I can quite certainly suspect an A. And this being case my personality wants to set some firm boundaries for our future - A needs to stop if we continue our MC and want to be in good terms for the kids. But big question is, how can I enforce that boundary - I cannot since she can lie. Further, I have seen many spouses taking more moderate approach and not confronting cheating spouse but rather taking steps back. Any advice, would you guys continue MC without confronting if you suspect an A?
I made this plan how could I get her to admit the potential A: Explaining all the little things I have found & seen (toys, parties, protecting phone) and say that I have a strong reason to suspect you are cheating on me. Are you? When W denies, I could say that only way she could prove me wrong is to let me check her phone. If she letīs and I donīt find evidence (have never even asked to check the phone before), I can maybe believe her excuses. If she refuses, I take that as confirmation of an A. How does that sound?
But to be honest, I still wouldnīt be 100% clear of the next steps. Is there any idea of continuing MC if she has an affair? What kind of boundaries I could set up not feeling/appearing like a doormat? After all, I still want to fix the situation if possible...
I truly wish that we could reconcile, although Iīm prepared to continue my adventure alone and as a better man.
Your post makes it sound like you are doing a good job of DB'ing, you didn't mention Michele's book but I assume you read it, how long ago?
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As of Jan 2018 we rented an apartment where we alternate every other week with W so that kids could stay at their home. We also started emotionally focused therapy 1/week and even my hopes are high it could enable us to attach emotionally, I afraid there is too much damage done for a fresh start.
You really shouldn't be going to couples therapy right now, it's unlikely to help things and may even hurt them. WAS's need time and space, when we force them into therapy or counseling it's basically the opposite of what they want. And they resent that we are forcing them to do what WE want.
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Since she feels that she needs space I obviously do not want to smother her, but on the other hand cause she felt neglected in the marriage Iīm afraid that going too much dark will send the wrong message as well.
This is a very common concern expressed here. The thing is, she is two feet out the door. The time for smothering her with love and affection to repair the M is long gone. It won't help now, it'll just look needy and desperate to her.
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Before what I found this morning my wife had these classical WAW/WW/MLC symptoms: -Parties a lot more with younger co-workers or divorced friends -Plastic surgery -Tattoo below breasts -paying more attention to dressing/make-up -Works out intensively -Rebellious action/thoughts -lotīs at SoMe -protecting phone
Given that, I would say the chances are very good she is in a EA if not PA.
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Week ago we had date and were intimate and AFTER ML my wife mentioned she bought condoms since she didnīt have any other birth control ATM. I thought this was odd, since she never bought them before, but did not say anything.
Yeah it sure sounds like she's got a PA going.
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So this morning I snooped a bit and found some sex toys from W closet, like BDSM collar and coc* ring!!
I'm sorry, but it doesn't get any more obvious than that. But here's the thing, the two of you are separated. I'm sorry to say that in her eyes the M is over. So technically it's not an affair to her, it's just her moving on. And no I would not confront her about what you found because A) frankly it's none of your business and B) in confronting her you will expose that you are sneaking around snooping on her and going through her personal belongings, and I promise you that will not be well- received.
By the way you mentioned you've had a sex-starved marriage but unless I missed it you didn't mention why?
hello, GettinT... i am sorry about your situation... as a former Wayward Wife, one of the things i wish my H had done differently was confront me when he found out i was being unfaithful... he kept his knowledge to himself go too long... he had learned pretty early in the A, but said nothing... by the time he confronted me, i was fully in the affair... i was so attach emotionally, not to mention physically, i could not even imagine ending it... had he confronted me when he first knew, i would have been so ashamed, so regretful... however, my perspective comes from one who was in a marriage, and not at all separated at the time... your situation does seem different...
in general, i don't agree with the concept of pretending that you don't know... but hear me out on this: if you are going to confront her, you have do something to go along with revealing your knowledge... if you are not going to take some kind of stand once you let it out that you know, then you may as well say nothing--because then you are just going to look weak... pretending that you don't know, she probably does think you are weak, but doesn't think you know how weak she thinks you are... get it?
so if you are simply going to confront, and then go back to living like things are somewhat normal where you are putting up with it, then keep it to yourself for the time being...
I actually have not got Michelleīs book yet, it should arrive any day now. I have however red tons of other books of MR and individual growth. Only positive thing in this crisis is that IF we get our R work, it will be significantly better but if not, I will be better man for myself and any other potential R in the future - even if the learning path have gone through hell.
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You really shouldn't be going to couples therapy right now, it's unlikely to help things and may even hurt them. WAS's need time and space, when we force them into therapy or counseling it's basically the opposite of what they want. And they resent that we are forcing them to do what WE want.
This type of MC was actually my W idea - she said that she wants us to separate and start emotionally focused therapy, since thatīs the area we have had issues. Of course I has crossed my mind that it was just one way for her to give me hope and pave mentally easier way out...
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I'm sorry, but it doesn't get any more obvious than that. But here's the thing, the two of you are separated.
I get this unfortunately, and itīs The most difficult thing to know in my life. I have always been very committed to M and so I thouhgt of my W. She gets hurt if I even have suspected anything with OM, saying I "I feel so bad that you can even think anything like that"... But thatīs how the story usually goes I guess.
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By the way you mentioned you've had a sex-starved marriage but unless I missed it you didn't mention why?
Because W did not want to. She said that she donīt feel emotionally connected with me. She also had a lot of resentment which pushed her far. I think this quote from this forum explains it: "women need to feel emotionally safe and secure before they become physical or sexual... while men need to feel accepted physically and/or sexually before they become emotional and vulnerable." Vicious cycle!
BUT, feels very odd that W would be up to playing w toys now with OM when all she wanted from me was being emotionally available and physically near when ML...
Thank you for providing perspective from another angle and great that you also shared your own experience!
My W has not been overly mean to me during this process. She has told to everyone that we separated since we need to find out if we still could love each other. There is lot of bitterness and anger for sure, but still until recently I was hopeful. We know what caused our problems and they donīt exist anymore. Itīs about finding this emotional bond again trust again. With the therapy focused in that together with DBing I was hopeful.
But seems I react very strongly to this possible A. I really want to confront her and making a stand. BUT, I donīt know what that stand would be. One way would be that Iīm not going to the MC if you do not stop, but it feels that it could work, and we got the best therapist in our country who is usually very busy. Another thing could be financial, I could stop paying rent of "nesting" apartment and ask for her to find her own. OR, I could explain that I will go totally dark except the MC sessions and things that concern the kids and finance.
BUT, I donīt know what that stand would be. One way would be that Iīm not going to the MC if you do not stop, but it feels that it could work, and we got the best therapist in our country who is usually very busy. Another thing could be financial, I could stop paying rent of "nesting" apartment and ask for her to find her own. OR, I could explain that I will go totally dark except the MC sessions and things that concern the kids and finance.
GT,
The only suggested boundary below that would be enforceable is the financial boundary. The other options are quite frankly childish threats that will make you look weak.
I agree with AS in that you are separated and there is nothing you can do about the A she is in at the moment other then deciding if this is a deal breaker for you. If it is file for D. If it is not the only thing you can do is create a great life for your kids and yourself and maybe your W will want to be a part of it.
Look man, this $hit is not easy and when you are standing for the M and she is running around like girls gone wild it is going to be a rough painful road.
The quicker that you communicate to her through actions that you love and value yourself are not gonna put up with this disrespectful BS, the quicker you will have a resolution in your situation. If not, this most likely will go on for a very long time!
I actually have not got Michelleīs book yet, it should arrive any day now. I have however red tons of other books of MR and individual growth. Only positive thing in this crisis is that IF we get our R work, it will be significantly better but if not, I will be better man for myself and any other potential R in the future - even if the learning path have gone through hell.
It sounds like of all the things you read that you were kind of naturally drawn to the DB approach so I think you'll find the book very helpful. You are definitely on the right track, make yourself the "spouse only a fool would leave" and that is your best chance of a recon, but eventually in that process you will get to the point where you realize you are going to thrive whether you recon or not.
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This type of MC was actually my W idea - she said that she wants us to separate and start emotionally focused therapy, since thatīs the area we have had issues. Of course I has crossed my mind that it was just one way for her to give me hope and pave mentally easier way out...
Gotcha. In that case it's fine to go, just don't have any expectations that it will help your sitch. A lot of times WAS's only suggest things like that so they can cross it off their "list of things I did to try everything to fix it but that only proved the M really is over". They go into it with the mindset that they are just looking for reasons/excuses to prove the M is done. And unfortunately most counselors are just divorce facilitators, so it's pretty easy for a WAS to find what they're looking for there.
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I get this unfortunately, and itīs The most difficult thing to know in my life. I have always been very committed to M and so I thouhgt of my W. She gets hurt if I even have suspected anything with OM, saying I "I feel so bad that you can even think anything like that"... But thatīs how the story usually goes I guess.
It really is. A lot of them will engage in all kinds of nefarious behavior but then act all hurt and disappointed that you would actually think they are engaging in it. It's crazy but often the spouses we thought we knew so well turn into lying cheaters that barely even resemble who we knew. They will look you in the eye and pour out lies and turn it around to make YOU feel guilty for accusing them. It's amazing.
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Because W did not want to. She said that she donīt feel emotionally connected with me. She also had a lot of resentment which pushed her far.
That's WAS logic for you. "I don't feel connected to you so I don't want to do things that might make me start feeling connected to you again."
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BUT, feels very odd that W would be up to playing w toys now with OM when all she wanted from me was being emotionally available and physically near when ML...
One of the books I read talked about this phenomenon, how shocking it is for many LBH's when they snoop/ spy and find out that their W that hasn't wanted to have sex with them for years and were pretty plain-vanilla in bed even before that are suddenly behaving like they're trying out for a part in Fifty Shades. But the bottom line is all of this is she doesn't see YOU that way anymore, so you've got to go about making yourself into a guy that she DOES see like that again. Detach, GAL, become strong and independent, revamp your wardrobe, get in shape if you need to, etc.
The quicker that you communicate to her through actions that you love and value yourself are not gonna put up with this disrespectful BS, the quicker you will have a resolution in your situation. If not, this most likely will go on for a very long time!
^^^This^^^ Sandi says much the same thing here a lot. WAS's just love to walk all over the LBS while throwing them crumbs now and then to keep them on as Plan B. Your attitude needs to be "I am Plan A, and not necessarily for you, W." She has to learn to miss you.
Thanks for your replies, now I need to focus the encouraging comments below, since I feel beaten - W confessed A today...
Especially liked these:
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The quicker that you communicate to her through actions that you love and value yourself are not gonna put up with this disrespectful BS, the quicker you will have a resolution in your situation.
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"I am Plan A, and not necessarily for you, W." She has to learn to miss you
I keep this short since feel quite exhausted but this is how it went in a nutshell - can give more details and thoughts once Iīve slept a bit (already late in Europe):
I gathered my evidence and was prepared. After our MC I said that Iīll give you a ride home. Then the convo (in short) was approx like this: Me: I suspect you have an affair W: (looking in the eye) No, I absolutely have not, how can you think that way Me: Unfortunately I have some evidence that forces me to do that conclusion W: Come on, I would never do anything like that I put the evidence on table: -Seems that she has not slept in "nesting" apt during her week (W denies) -Found the "toy bag" (W says she bought it for us) -Found camera with pics with other guy on campfire (W: met him accidentally at forest) -She left with two suitcases in the beginning of last week, came back with only one. (This was the pivotal evidence - she first lied that they are both at home, but since I checked the whole house in advance and they were not there, her story cracked. She admitted that bag was left to an OM, but of course first said that "nothing happened")
After short conversation I said, that only way for her to prove herself right is to show me her mobile phone. She did not and I said I take that as an evidence of A. Shortly after it came clear that all my evidence were correct and she really has spent many days/nights w OM. And Iīm talking about my sweetheart who always were super truthful!
LH19, out of curiosity, what is the book you mentioned here (if ok to share)?
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One of the books I read talked about this phenomenon, how shocking it is for many LBH's when they snoop/ spy and find out that their W that hasn't wanted to have sex with them for years and were pretty plain-vanilla in bed even before that are suddenly behaving like they're trying out for a part in Fifty Shades.
When I got all info I needed, my W actually was very remorseful and said that meant nothing for her emotionally. Who knows whatīs the truth.
I communicated my boundaries (can share them later if you want to know) and left. Letīs see how the situation develops in couple of days...
Experienced the worst feelings today, but after I got the assurance I also feel relieved. At least for me the worst is not knowing, might be different for others. I still feel numb, but I have a plan that Iīm standing behind (hopefully have all the strenght).
I also want to convey my sympathy to all at this forum who have experienced the same - it really really really [censored]! Actually feels like a bad dream.
