WW, A ended, but limbo and unanswered Qs.(My 10th)

[sandi2]

Quote:
The non-sexual touches should have gotten further along by this time, IMHO. I mean, she doesn't want you touching any part of her?

Some of this is probably on me. I am not and never have been much of an "initiator". The current rift between us, seemingly setting us back to "pre-dating" has not made it any easier in that regard. There is fear of rejection, sure, but also fear of scaring her away. There was a point where she did not want me touching any part of her, during the A and then for a while afterward.

You say you have never been much of an initiator. Are you referring to just initiating sex, or was this in other things, too? And also, are you referring to just your W back before the wedding, or was this a general fear of rejection from other women as well? Did you have experience being rejected, other than your W?

If I remember right, you were the reason for not having much sex........long before OM entered the picture. So, to clarify, does your W have a track record of rejecting you when you initiated sex?

I'm going to say something I have heard other women say, and some men may find it crazy b/c they don't think like women think. So, why do men take it so personal when the W doesn't want to have sex? I'm not talking about her never wanting sex, but sometimes. Why does he flop over on his side, facing the other wall, and the silence and his cold shoulder, or back, is deafening. Remember, I am getting this from other women. My H never did anything like that.

Jim, whatever I end up saying in this post, please know that I am not pointing fingers. Neither do I want to sound as if I don't completely understand how all of this leads to a SSM. I think it takes two people to have a SSM. Humm, I don't think I've ever said that before. .

Okay, here's the thing. When God made male and female, He designed them to not only have distinct differences in their bodies........but in almost everything that sets them apart. It's as if they are two separate creatures. No wonder it's such a challenge for these two genders to become as "one". God made Eve from Adam's rib, and I think that's about all that resembled men & women thereafter.

God designed the man to be the dominant gender. God designed the woman to be the submissive gender. It doesn't mean the man can't be sensitive and considerate...... or that the woman can't have the brains to run a corporation. In a man-woman intimate relationship, God intended the man to lead/dominate and woman to be submissive/respond. When those roles are reversed, there will be trouble in the MR.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not going to say a woman should never initiate making love to her H. It works in happy relationships. But when the H becomes the primary responder, while his W is in the dominant role.......it will eventually begin to break down. Just as we see hundreds of M's in trouble right here on the board, and when looking closer.....we see a man who has taken a passive role and his W has stepped into the dominant role in their marriage and the family. Whenever a woman tries to behave like a man, it takes away from her femininity. Ever watch these shows where there is a female chief of police or something similar that was traditionally considered a man's job? She lowers her voice and tries to act like a man! What does she do when she goes home to her H and heads for the bedroom? Does she switch hats, or should I say.....switch into some little sexy piece and start showing him how soft and feminine she is? Well, if she goes home and tries to be talk and act like one of the guys......I don't think that is going to go well in the bedroom, do you? One has to be dominant and one has to be submissive, or someone will probably say they have a headache. Our society has become so complicated, no wonder marriages are in trouble. Nobody knows who or what they are suppose to be when they go home to their spouses!

So, let me get back to the part of you not wanting to scare her away, and when she didn't want you touching her while she was in the A.... and then after the A. If I remember correctly, back in days before the problems, she had a healthy sex drive. I don't remember you expounding on your issue, only that there was a health problem for you......and now you are seeing a doctor and things seem back to normal. Sorry, if I crudely stated things, it wasn't intentional. I remember when you once began feeling more confident and interested in having sex, you were eager to begin the healing process in your SSM. In fact, I couldn't help but notice that it was after your health issue was resolved that you were wanted to press your W about her committing to working on a full MR in every way, including the intimacy.

I bring that out, b/c just as your sexual health was returning back, and appeared more interested or focused on the intimacy..........so can it happen for women. I don't recall how long it had been stalled, or if there was occasional sex before your W began her EA. But I know from my own experience and from what I have gathered by studying this subject, that whenever a woman has emotionally closed her heart to her H.......she won't be interested in having sex with him. Now those with a high sex drive, may engage enough for their own sexual release......but to be emotionally engaged in making love to her H, I haven't heard where it exists in a WW. It's b/c of everything that has gone on in her mindset about her H, losing admiration for him and how it affects her desire, etc. And I don't want to offend anyone or make them angry at me if I sound as if I'm saying they don't understand if they have not been a WW or M to a WW. I am trying to say that a woman who is in love with her H and wants to save her MR, is not going to have the cold, hard hearted feelings that a WW has and is completely turned off to having her H even touch her in a non-sexual way........much less, in a sexual suggestive manner. People just cannot really grasp how disgusted it makes her feel, when just a year of so earlier she may have appeared to be pretty normal. Well, it's b/c she closed her heart to her H. And when her heart is closed to him, it is vulnerable to opening to another man.

From what I have heard and read, men are capable of separating sex from love. Although Hollywood has diligently portrayed the modern woman capable of doing the same........it contradicts the human nature of the female, and the teaching of the Bible. Women's emotions, feelings, respect, love, desire......are all tied together. It is nearly impossible for her to separate them. That's why a lonely W who has unmet emotional needs, can get hooked on romance novels and fantasize about the romantic leading man........and the end results for her is that her heart becomes closed to her H, in the same way as if she was in an actual affair with that novel's leading man. It's all in her head! Right? Right, but what is in her head, affects everything in her life! How many men do you know can read a love story and wish his W would treat him or just act like the woman in the love story. I am talking to the point that he starts giving his W the cold shoulder, and putting distance between them, etc. I have yet to hear about one man filing for D, b/c his W was nothing like the ones in romantic novels or movies. Does it really happen that way for women? Just ask Cadet. A woman can can have an imaginary affair about any man. He may be real or he may be a fictional character. However, the affects on her mindset are, disturbingly, alike.

Jim, when your W was in her A, her head was full of OM and her fantasy. There was no room for you. Women are in love with one man at a time. Not two or three or a dozen. They may be M to one man and be in love with another. She may even have sex with one and be in love with another. Heck, she could have multiple orgasams with her H and be fantasizing it's the other guy. (Is this the pep talk you needed to dominate her in the bedroom? ). Anyway, the man that resides in her head is the one affecting her heart.

After she ends her A, the OM does not simply disolve in her mind. LBH's talk and act as if they believe it's all over at the point of ending the A. Remember what I said about the gal who can have an IA with a fictional character? It is very difficult for some women to cut off those thoughts of OM. I went through the longest period of dreaming about all the "could have been". Yes, I made the decision to stay in my M, but it took a long time for my feelings to catch up with my decision. I was keeping the A alive by keeping it in my head. I was mentally feeding the A. Frankly, I was very concerned your W was doing the same.

I honestly don't know where she is at the moment. Yes, I think it is good to follow through with her suggestion about the MC's advice on just "doing it". Absolutely, go for it. You need to break that ice, and then melt that stuff instead of letting it build large enough to sank the Titanic. . You should have been slowly working toward that goal ever since she ended the A. Look, I usually tell H's who have a W that's been in a A, to let the W initiate sex the first time after they reconcile. However, that's with the understanding that the H has been following the instructions about slowly closing the emotional gap between the couple and keeping up with the non-sexual to more intimate type of touching.

Just as a woman is affected by the thoughts that reside in her head, so is the H affected by the thoughts in his head. You have thoughts of scaring her away. Your thoughts could leave you feeling powerless and passive, rather than conducting yourself with confidence. You know how important it is to show that confidence, b/c that is the attractive ingredient that will grab her. A confident and dominant male in the bedroom? It will be more than she can resist. Many women, maybe most.......will not tell their H, "I really want you to be dominate with me". They may try to tell the H in some other way, but the guy just doesn't get it.

I have recently suggested to a couple of others to search on line about male dominance in the MR. You often ask how something would look, and I found one place about male dominance that actually broke it down into basic instructions. It uses what I call, "male language", so you guys relate. Fortunately for its readers, it doesn't take a fourth as many words as it does for women.

she has said herself "I agree with MC that I think we just need to try this" (Though she also said, albeit several weeks back when last we talked to MC that she had a hard time envisioning some of the more sexual touches that were included in the latter stages of this program that MC wanted us to do, though she said she was "Willing to try to get there.")

As you said, that was several weeks back. Recently, you confronted her about doing something or get off the pot.......so, it may have spurred her to be more willing, instead of the typical response of, "I just can't see myself ever having sex with you again". Like I told you in previous times, when you are trying to piece the M back together, she needs to do things that she would do for a friend, at the least. That should be early actions, after her depression begins to lift. But you should not see it as some signal that she's ready for sex. Then start with non-sexual touches, and stick with it until it develops into more intimate touching. It seems I told you this months ago. But I just realized a few days ago, there was absolutely no type of touching whatsoever. The women I have talked to about this, all agree that you have to close the gap before she's emotionally ready to be intimate. And, Jim, I am not talking about one day. This has to be on-going. Something some men completely miss. It's called a relationship. Keep the touching on-going. Sometimes more intense than other times, but it's like verbal communication. Maybe you don't talk at the same intensity throughout the day every day. It has it's softer, lower talks, and then the more passionate talks. But there is some verbal words every day. Same should be said about the touches between a H and his W. Am I making sense?

((hugs))

[hoosjim]

Sandi, for starters i just have to say: Wow, thanks! I really appreciate all the time and thought you put into these-- this is a lot of stuff. You have really stuck with me through all my ups and downs, and I thank you for that. Even when things aren't going "well" here, this board is a bit of a refuge.

Does she do things for you, like take you a cup of coffe, fix your favorite meal, run errands for you, take care of certain jobs instead of expecting you to do it.......like having the car washed, mowing the yard, etc. Does she show genuine interest when you are talking......by nodding her head and asking questions?

Yes. We each tend to do work in "spurts" around here, but we both do our share. More and more we have even been doing things together-- cleaning out garage, etc. As for doing things "for" me, you know, i hadn't really thought about it until you posted it but, yes... yes she does. I just haven't been taking too much notice of it because i am so (perhaps excessively) focused on the "big picture". She will bring me drinks, make things i like for meals, ask me about particular issues she knows i am working on at work. Makes it a point to wear the pretty things i got her at christmas (jewelry, scarf). She is pretty engaged in our conversations, and we go back and forth as you indicate, asking each other questions, etc.

Does she show you as much consideration as she would give a co-worker, neighbor, or a new acquaintance?

This is a bit tricky-- and this is one of the things i would always "Throw back at her" during the bad old years-- and it is or at least was kind of true-- back then she was always more prone to yelling or name-calling at me and the kids than she would have been to coworkers or even strangers. Now, she wasn't always like this, and this is one of the dynamics that sort of slowly developed, i believe, on about the same timeline as my distance and neglect (not excusing either one or the other-- just noting that the deterioration was on multiple fronts and over period of time and from both sides.) More recently, she has been much much much more civil in her interactions with me and kids, and certainly she is much more loving with the kids now than she has been since they were little. As to consideration towards me? Hmmmm. She does not any longer offer any signs of disrespect towards me, but, well... I will say that in terms of day-to-day consideration and politeness and demeanor she gives me as much as coworkers/friends. However, in terms of intimacy/touch, she still holds back more. I have even remarked on this to her on a couple of occasions-- Once way back in June (before this current reconcilliation phase started) and she was still avoiding any touch by me and seemed borderline repulsed by it, she could have a stranger come up and put his hand on her shoulder/back and she'd be just fine with this (I saw this happen once on our June family vacation and remarked to her on it-- she said she didn't remember) and then again at her office Christmas party where, upon leaving, she gave the male (and married) doctor who was hosting the party--and someone she considers a "friend" a noticeably "warmer" frontal hug than anything i have gotten from her recently with one or two possible, and i repeat "possible" exceptions. She said after that one she didn't think it was anything out of the ordinary, and it likely wouldn't have been... assuming she was giving her husband hugs of at least the same warmth.

Does she show you compassion when you are upset, sad, sick or injured? Does she offer encouragement when you are worried, nervous, discouraged, etc.?

Yes, and this is a change even from when she was still "in" the marriage and I was sick. My illness, coinciding as it did with the younger years of my childrens' lives, was an obvious aggravant to her, and she often showed her impatience. This was actually one of the things she apologized to me for, in some depth, near the start of our counselling. "Offering encouragement"-- kind of outside her comfort zone-- she's not a real "rah rah you can do this" type, though she did fairly good with the kids in this regard. I'd say, though, that she is at least as kind to me in that regard as she is to others.

Does she smile at you when you enter the room? Does she just give you some sign that you are important to her life?

Sometimes. She is "hot and cold", here. Sometimes she can be very engaging, smiling, high eye contact, and other times not. She does seem appreciative when i stop by her desk at work, and called me quickly to ask why I didn't stop by the one day i did not. I still do not get the "she lights up when i enter the room" thing.

She can call you during the day, just b/c she's thinking of you and wondering how your day is going.

This she does. She probably calls me two to three times as much as i dial her up, although the text imbalance is probably equally unbalanced the other way. She never says "Im just thinking of you" and she often has a pretext-- usually something about the kids-- but she has been calling me regularly two to three times during the workday ever since July/August.

There should be non-sexual touching throughout the day.......or at the least, throughout the week. She can pat you on the back, touch your shoulder, sit close to you on the couch and touch your arm occasionally. She can look lovingly into your eyes, instead of looking away or showing unconcern. She can speak in soft, sweet tones.......and of course, respectfully. She can laugh with you and show she is enjoying being with you. She should be able to show you that you matter to her.

Mixed bag, here. Hard to say she often deliberately reaches out to touch me with her hands. Once or twice, here and there, every couple of days, but she has plenty of opportunities where it would be natural where she does not. OTOH, she seems more willing WRT feet/legs. Maybe its just subconscious and she doesn't notice it as much, but she will often have her legs or feet pressed against mine when we are out, or even when we are in bed if we are not cuddled up a little closer. We do laugh and talk together and enjoy each others company. She is generally good on conversational eye contact, but IDK that i would say she's gazing "lovingly" into my eyes.

On balance, my interpretation would be that I do "matter" to her and that she, for the most part, acts accordingly. She is just far, far more interested these days in what i am doing and how I am doing and where I am than she has been at any time in, oh, many years.

But let's just say she has been showing the efforts I gave in previous examples, and now she is ready to progress a little futher. What are some things you would see? When you leave for the day, she she should be able to give you a light hug. You know, just a friendly little hug and wish you a good day. In time, this can progress to standing closer while she give the hugs, instead of keep significate space between the bodies. She can begin giving little peck kisses on the side of your face.......not getting anywhere too close to your lips. It's as if she's trying to do it quickly and move on, but it is a big step for her.

This is a tricky dynamic. Maybe i am just making too much of it and just need to be more forward, but it is clearly an awkward moment-- departure for work in the morning. As if both of us know we "should" be doing something but neither of us knowing exactly what that is, so it ends up kind of like "okay, have a great day" or "good luck with ___________" or the like, and lately I will make it a point to touch her lightly in some fashion on the arm or shoulder or low back as she is going out the door. The one day last week i actually gave her a full-on hug because she was going to be late due to a work social engagement so i hugged her and said "hey, have fun" and that didn't seem TOO awkward, but she did seem surprised.

And what some selfish people don't understand is that she has to give herself to you, in order to receive the joy and loving feelings she wants to experience.

This is one of the things i am pretty sure she is struggling with. She wants the joy and loving feelings FIRST, and thinks that that's the normal way for that to transpire... but that, IMO, is a job for her and her IC.

[hoosjim]

You say you have never been much of an initiator. Are you referring to just initiating sex, or was this in other things, too? And also, are you referring to just your W back before the wedding, or was this a general fear of rejection from other women as well? Did you have experience being rejected, other than your W?

Mostly sex, and mostly after marriage. Although i have never been as forward as the typical "alpha" male probably is. From college onward, i tended to be very "lucky" with women. I never had to put alot of effort into it. I "hooked up" a fair amount and the few "relationships" i had i just sort of tended to kind of fall into-- the girl would pursue me or we would hook up drunk at a party and things would go from there. It was all pretty low-effort casual. BUT... i was always just a wee bit hesitant about things like taking a girls hand, or putting an arm around her, unless i was in a well-established relationship (or had been drinking.) I am not "Shy" per se, but i do have a shy side to me, if that makes sense. (Whenever i take those damned Meyers Briggs tests i always come up close to 50-50 between Introvert/Extrovert) I would say i had some typical male "fear of rejection" but nothing profound or excessive.

Things changed for me when i met my W. She was very demonstrative, very touchy-feely, and I found that i really, really liked all of that. When we were dating, W and I were constantly touching, holding hands, arms around each other, kissing. I was crazy about her. Like i'd never been about anyone. When she said after a church couples retreat that she thought we should from that point abstain until marriage, i thought i was going to pop.

After marriage, a raft of problems set in. She said she thought we should maybe try Natural Family Planning (turns out though that she wasn't as hard set on it as i thought at the time), I agreed.
We weren't very good at it. Really hurt the spontenaeity at times. Then came my illness, which i'd been experiencing rumblings with for a couple of years and which, in addition to causing my joints (all of them) to hurt with a constant burning, even stabbing pain, also caused my testosterone levels (along with my libido) to crash to very low levels. That made me not want any more kids-- I could barely even pick up the tiny infant and 1-year old we already had... let alone go throw ball with them or the like. I felt like less than half a dad and less than half a man. Then i crashed the finances in connection with the dot-com crash. She was understanding and we prayed alot about it, but that was the last straw for me. I lost any shred of confidence in myself i still had left. I withdrew...

None of it was that sudden, of course. And she was not blameless. Carrying all of the weight, doing all the physical chores, getting up in the middle of the night with the kids because i was too sick... She started becoming short with me. Resentful. Even sometimes with the kids. And all i wanted to do was feel better-- and i hyperfocused on that, thinking that if i could solve that problem, everything else would become better. We became opponents instead of partners trying to see our way out of the storm, and by the time my doctors finally began sorting out my issues... we had checked out on each other.

All of that grossly affected my confidence in reaching out to her, on any intimate level, and, ultimately, my desire for her as well. We just stopped "giving" to each other. And i realize i got off on a bit of a tangent there, but, ... yeah.

So, to clarify, does your W have a track record of rejecting you when you initiated sex?

My W does not have such a track record. She was far more the instigator, after marriage, than was I. The few times i did "throw her down" or the like, she was more than willing. In fact, the "last straw" as she would put it would be the last time we actually ML, which will be five years in the rearview mirror come August 2018. I was just on the cusp of emerging from my hell of ill-health, with some promising developments, and I had been away on a trip with S1, and she, as she said, "threw herself at me" (a fairly accurate account). She wanted an all-night experience, to be with me and all of that, and, after one time I just got up and left, went downstairs, turned on the computer. She came down in her nightie after i had been away for a few minutes, saw me sitting there, turned around and stormed back upstairs in tears. Im not even sure what the hell i was thinking. By that time, yeah, alot of damage had been done to the relationship, and, no, my libido had not yet bounced back to any degree but, in retrospect, that was an incredibly cold and insensitive way of me to behave. And things were never quite the same after that. She's right that that was probably the last straw. We had stopped saying "I love you" and kissing on the way out the door in the morning, and, within less than three years, her rings would be off... and i wouldn't even notice.

God designed the man to be the dominant gender. God designed the woman to be the submissive gender. It doesn't mean the man can't be sensitive and considerate...... or that the woman can't have the brains to run a corporation. In a man-woman intimate relationship, God intended the man to lead/dominate and woman to be submissive/respond. When those roles are reversed, there will be trouble in the MR.

This is good stuff, Sandi. Something i have been trying to restore to myself... along with self-confidence, etc. I know for a fact (because she has told me), that even aside from sexuality, that one of the things about me in the past that would turn my wife off about me is indecisiveness ("well, where do YOU want to go") or uncertainty, or having to go to her with a problem (a big one with me was always "do you know where __________ is?" or the like. I also know (again because she has told me) that "sometimes she likes it rough" and that every now and then it would be nice if i just "Threw her down and took her". (For the record, here, I did do this on a few occasions when we were dating and even once or twice early in the M) At any rate, I did do some research, reading, etc. on this, and even found what i think you were referring to WRT the "plain man's talk" on the subject. Some of what you'll find is, IMO, excessively neanderthal (and recall that at one point i WAS actually pretty successful with the opposite sex) but alot of it nonetheless rings pretty true, IMO. I had already started trying to restore some of my "swagger" through the 180s and GAL's, etc (completely stopped doing all the stuff listed above that she found unattractive) and am generally focused on reclaiming my status as a smoldering sexual cauldron. Still takes two to tango, however.

I remember when you once began feeling more confident and interested in having sex, you were eager to begin the healing process in your SSM. In fact, I couldn't help but notice that it was after your health issue was resolved that you were wanted to press your W about her committing to working on a full MR in every way, including the intimacy.

Well, not exactly. My health problems were substantially resolved and my libido returning to normal approximately 3-4 years ago. (It was not a quick fix-- I actually had a handful of intertwined and complicated things going wrong with me.) But, by that point, the damage was done. The MR was for all intents and purposes over. By the time I had taken up with OM in the spring/summer of 2016, followed closely by his starting the A with my W in, lets say, October 2016, it was a stretch to say we were even friends. In fact, i wouldn't say that we were at all. We lived separate lives, resented things about the other... i had even allowed myself to start thinking that i could be happy with someone else... if someone else came along... say, a friend of my fairly new but still very close friend "OM", who knew many younger, attractive women. At that point my W, who is a looker no question about it and can pass for a couple decades younger than her actual age, was just not attractive to me. Maybe im kind of a strange guy this way, but i have always found it hard to be sexually attracted to even a very physically attractive woman who is obnoxious or off-putting or abusive or... you get the picture. I once threw over an extremely attractive college cheerleader (actually only a few months before i met my W) for that very reason-- she was gorgeous but i just couldn't stand to be around her for even long enough to "do the deed". And I was feeling somewhat the same about my W at that point, though i still had very fond memories of who "she had been" and what we had had. And then the roof fell in. And i realized alot of what i had been feeling had come from within me.. that while both W and i walked down that path together that, for my part, i had made a choice in some respects to push her away... to stop loving her. Only i did still care for her. And i did still love her. And the one thing i never ever in a million years dreamed i could lose... i was losing.

At any rate, my "cure", such as it was, as well as the return of my libido took place somewhat before the awakening of my desire to Reconcile with my W and, subsequently, to press her to commit to restoring our MR.

I bring that out, b/c just as your sexual health was returning back, and appeared more interested or focused on the intimacy..........so can it happen for women. I don't recall how long it had been stalled, or if there was occasional sex before your W began her EA. But I know from my own experience and from what I have gathered by studying this subject, that whenever a woman has emotionally closed her heart to her H.......she won't be interested in having sex with him. Now those with a high sex drive, may engage enough for their own sexual release......but to be emotionally engaged in making love to her H, I haven't heard where it exists in a WW. It's b/c of everything that has gone on in her mindset about her H, losing admiration for him and how it affects her desire, etc.

Again, good stuff and, based on what my W has said, definitely a big part of the way she feels. She has on more than one occasion said to me "ITs about more than just the sex..." And, interestingly, very early on in the A when i was recording her in the car i heard her tell OM-- who was trying to talk dirty with her-- pretty much the exact same thing and... in one of our counselling sessions she opened up that the one thing that really turned her head so to speak was OM "acting the gentleman" and both opening the door for her as well as helping an elderly man through the door on a very early coffee meet-up they had-- she said she want back to the car and cried for 20 minutes after that because i had not done those things for her in so long and she felt so alone because of it and also so bad that as a result she was now having feelings for someone else.

At any rate, yeah-- though she has what would probably be considered an above-average sex-drive, she wants much more than just a roll in the hay.

That's why a lonely W who has unmet emotional needs, can get hooked on romance novels and fantasize about the romantic leading man........and the end results for her is that her heart becomes closed to her H, in the same way as if she was in an actual affair with that novel's leading man. It's all in her head! Right? Right, but what is in her head, affects everything in her life! How many men do you know can read a love story and wish his W would treat him or just act like the woman in the love story. I am talking to the point that he starts giving his W the cold shoulder, and putting distance between them, etc. I have yet to hear about one man filing for D, b/c his W was nothing like the ones in romantic novels or movies.

I cant tell you how many of those novels my W read-- there are stacks and stacks and stacks of them-- starting not long after that incident where i came back from the trip and she threw herself at me. At first she'd even tell me: "You know, you should read some of these". And of course she watches Hallmark channel all the time. She definitely still has that "Fantasy story-book fairy tale" dynamic in her head. Not sure what, if anything i can do to change that-- and itll have to change at least somewhat because no man can live up to that ideal.

I have recently suggested to a couple of others to search on line about male dominance in the MR. You often ask how something would look, and I found one place about male dominance that actually broke it down into basic instructions. It uses what I call, "male language", so you guys relate. Fortunately for its readers, it doesn't take a fourth as many words as it does for women. smile

As i mentioned above, i found some good resources, thanks. And I am not completely alien to that mindset... its just been a while. I have made major strides already, i think, but more can be done.

Am I making sense?

Yes, Sandi, thanks. Though right now i am sick as a dog with a nasty, nasty chest cold-- One of the few aspects of my former illness that never went away (vulnerability to URIs). Nothing like that to bring back memories of sick, helpless hoosjim. (But I am soldiering on as best i can.)

Adding a quick addenda here because there was so much Sandi wrote and so much I had and i didn't really have time to do a good mental inventory before spewing out the post.

Coupla other things i have noticed from her in the vein of "engaging" with me, things that somehow i had sort of taken for granted:

First, she calls me on the way back from work. But not just to say she's on the way home, but to talk to me. Those spaces during the A were filled with talks with the OM-- my W doesn't appreciate a good silent car ride like i do But... she talks to me, and gets irritated and pout-y (in a jok-ey kind of way) when i have to (or choose to- always be the one to say goodbye first!) say goodbye.

Also... she talks about future with the two of us now. She has done this a couple of times, almost in passing, and I don't think i have remarked on it here. She did it again tonight just now on her way home in the car: "We could move to _________ to be near S2 and I could get a job at __________ and you can always telework for at least half the time and we'd get in-state tuition!" Me: But then we'd lose it for S1" Her: "Oh, yeah, well, we could each live in one spot but then how would we see each other-- we'd have to rendezvous at the beach every weekend! [giggled]" Well figure it out..

[sandi2]

Start a new thread, so I can respond.

[hoosjim]

Start a new thread, so I can respond. smile

Next thread created:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2777184&#Post2777184