WW, A ended, but limbo and unanswered Qs.(My 10th)

[Ginger1]

There is sexual intimacy and then there are other forms of physical intimacy like holding hands, kissing, hugging, cuddling. Has she been working on those? Because that should be coming before sexual intimacy. Do you guys hold hands? Do you kiss each other good morning and goodnight? Does she ever lay her head on your chest?

[hoosjim]

Dang it. I just wrote an entire frikking post and lost it.

There is sexual intimacy and then there are other forms of physical intimacy like holding hands, kissing, hugging, cuddling. Has she been working on those? Because that should be coming before sexual intimacy.

Things have been gradually, slowly, been warming up over the past couple of months or so, and that was what W was referring to when she said "I [W] had thought things were getting better recently". Initially, right after DB and indeed for a while after that (while she was still seeing OM), she was not at all comfortable with me touching her in any way. She would even recoil at my touch and she told me this is how she felt at the time. That has ever so slowly and gradually changed. She'll now let me put my arm around her when we are out, and will press her legs or feet against mine under the table, not quite playing footsy yet, but there is increasing willingness for that kind of contact. She has let me give her a foot massage a couple of times in recent weeks when she has come home and said "ugh, my feet ache", whereas before she wanted nothing to do with that and told me so. (And I give really good foot massages.) We have not kissed on the mouth except for that really weird drunk uncomfortable "test kiss" back in December, and then we kissed on New Years eve which seemed more natural and she was not weirded out by it(but was not open mouthed).

I will touch and/or hug her when we part in the morning or return home at night, though sometimes her body language is clear that she is not open to a hug so I don't push it. A few times we have kissed on the cheek on these occasions in recent weeks. She'll also hug and give me a cheek kiss in church when it is time for the greeting... something she also was not comfortable with previously.

In bed we had been growing steadily closer, sort of slowly eating up the real estate between us which had, at time of BD and during the affair, been vast-- each of us on our own edge of the bed facing away. Over the holidays and leading up to our convo last week, we had progressed to the point where we were pretty regularly touching while we slept, facing each other, and even with my arm over/around her in a spoon (though not a really tight one). This is also something that wouldn't have happened, say, three or four months ago-- I had made that move a couple of times, to hold her at night spontaneously and it had caused her to sit bolt uprignt and/or get out of bed. MC had told us at one point around that same timeframe to try to be more deliberate about that, and I had, on a few occasions after we had been out socially and come home, told her "come on over here" or the like, and then held her with her head on my shoulder while we went to sleep-- that was really the start of her getting more comfortable with it.

And finally, probably the closest to sexual intimacy was a couple of weeks back which I described previously, where she was open to me caressing and stroking her during a fairly erotic conversation we were having.

Still not mouth on mouth kissing for the most part, and no open mouth kissing at all... and still no her taking the initiative to lay her head on my chest. Hand holding is something I have not pushed either, other than taking her hand from time to time when we talk to emphasize a point or when she is saying something "difficult" for her. Maybe that is something I should make more of a move on, but it's my understanding that romantic hand-holding, fingers intertwined, etc, is considered very intimate by most women, and a big step. We haven't held hands in years upon years, not since the very early years of children, and mine are 18 and 19 now.

So, very clearly progress on those other forms of intimacy, or at least progress in terms of her "trying" them... but I do sense genuine warmth there. IS it enough for me? IDK. I'd really like to see her taking the initiative on something... throw her arms around me at some point, IDK. At this rate I'll be 60 before we're having sex.


Coconut:

Are you ok with her wanting to try, or do you need her to tell you that she wants to be with you and will do anything to save your marriage? Do you want her to actively seek help (MC or IC), or are you ok with her just going if you schedule it?

I think I am okay with her "Wanting" to try... if she genuinely wants to. IDK that I actually need to hear those particular words. It seems pretty clear from what Sandi has said that it can be pretty hard for a recovering WW to actually say those words, and even pretty hard for them to "want" to try. I think she does "Want to be with me" at least in the sense we are currently together, and I know that she "does not want a divorce.

As to MC/IC, while I would love for her to be taking the initiative and making her own and some of our appointments, or at least telling me: "HEy, you should make us an appointment" (And I have told both her and MC this), that is way, way, way outside of her comfort zone, culturally speaking, as is for that matter her talking about her personal problems at all. Also, MC has said it is not unusual for a recovering WW like my W to not be very proactive in that regard generally, that recovery takes a while. So, MC seems comfortable with the prospect of me making all the appointments ("you may have to bring her along and take the lead for a while if you want her to come to counseling")

One thing I absolutely [i]do need is for her (W) to seek out IC. It is very, very clear that a lot of her personal issues (commitment issues, self-esteem issues, etc., not to mention the affair addiction and recovery angle) have a large bearing on our likelihood of reconciliation. W and I have talked about this and she agrees, and agrees she should go "talk to someone." So... yeah. I need her to do that and that is something I told her last week, that I reiterated a couple of days ago, and which I am going to bring up at next MC session-- that that is a must, otherwise im not going to keep doing this. It's a waste.

2. Are you willing to walk away if she doesn’t do show those things, or will you stay anyway and just fumble along as you have for the last year?

There's a lot of things that would absolutely lead me to walk away. Her seeing Om in any capacity, or having any kind of intimate relationship with another man is obviously number one. If she suddenly backpedalled on her transparency. If she refused to go to MC would be another. If she refuses IC? My inclination is that I should walk, there, too. Or at least step back a good bit. She has known for a while that she needs that, MC has said it, friends have said it, we have talked about and acknowledged it. While I know that that is way outside of her comfort zone to go talk to someone one on one like that, it's clearly something necessary to a successful reconciliation. But that's a little bit harder.. I think I am going to have to get over that reluctance, though, because the IC is going to be so important. OTOH, she seems to think we are "making progress" and, in several respects we are, and when I drop the hammer on her for whatever she professes not to understand and to be hurt that I am stepping back

3. Do you believe that your wife had a PA? Would you walk if you found out she had?

I've actually discussed this before on here. As of BD (1/23/17) I know she had not (the convo I overheard between her and OM was clear on that point. There were three four or five months of A after that, however. It clearly was progressing in that direction. Later communications and based on her actions and behavior (I wont go into details) I still believe it was not a PA, although they did have opportunity. Would it make a difference to me? No... I've said before it hurts more to think of her falling in love with OM than it does to think of her having sex with him.

[sandi2]

On being committed to the MR: "I didn't say the word "committed" the other night when you kept asking me, but I am. Maybe i never said it before but I am committed. Do I know if i can give you what you want in terms of intimacy? No, i don't, but i want to try. I know that is going to take work. I can't give you all of that right this moment, though... I'm just not there right now."

Then why would she deliberately withhold the words you kept asking from her? Her usual pat answer of, I'm still here" was snide.......and according to your description of her reaction, she knew she was being snide and not trying to cooperate. That's cruel, in my book........but then, WW's can be the worst.

Another cruel action is bringing up her doubts before she M you, and she still wonders if there is another man that would fit her better. But apparently, she is not compassionate about how that makes you feel.

The reason I bring up these two actions again, is b/c it's very obvious she is self absorbed. Perhaps she has been self absorbed since before the wedding. Maybe she has always been that way. If so, then I don't know whether or not she'll make the progress you want. She can, if she has someone like your MC who will be very frank with her, and not just tell her what she wants to hear. She doesn't like being accountable to you, and I think her rebellion rises, as has been seen lately. Perhaps that's why she started pulling back from the counselor, b/c she was pushing for your W's accountability, and to do homework W didn't want to do.

She talks as if she doesn't have a clue as to what you want from her. I have difficulty believing it, even if she really thought you were not interested in ever being intimate again and simply living as roommates. So, I suggest you tell her in very plain language that she'll understand. Draw the picture of what you see as "working on the MR".....so there will be no guessing games.

My concern is that even in non-sexual relationships, compassion and respect for the other one exist. I just haven't seen you reporting where she is giving of herself in the relationship. She is just there. A WW has a lot of work to do on the inside, and if she is truly doing that work........instead of stalling or backsliding, then her H should start to see a little glimmer of hope.

The non-sexual touches should have gotten further along by this time, IMHO. I mean, she doesn't want you touching any part of her? Before the affair, would she let you kiss her when leaving for work? You said there has been no mouth on mouth kissing for years? Wow! If there was ever a sign a MR is in trouble, it is when there is no touching........and no kissing. .

I just want to encourage you to see that counselor more often, if you are going to stay in this M. And, you are going to need to gently lead the way in the department of non-sexual touching. We discussed this some time ago. There needs to be much more than what you've done. Just start doing it, Jim. I think you've waited on her, and that's not working. She'll never be ready for sex, if there is no kind of normal non-sexual touching between the two of you. I don't mean just once in a while, but starting now with very simple non-sexual touches of some kind every single day. Let her get use to them, and get comfortable. Act as if it is totally normal, b/c it is normal for couples to touch.

Start giving her a hug. Give her a kiss when you leave for work (at least on the cheek). It doesn't mean putting your hand on her shoulder is going to lead to sex. But as you said, you just want to know that both of you are working toward eventually having an intimate relationship. I just don't think it will get there with you never taking the lead in these other ways first.

Have you started sleeping back in the bed with her?

[hoosjim]

Then why would she deliberately withhold the words you kept asking from her? Her usual pat answer of, I'm still here" was snide.......and according to your description of her reaction, she knew she was being snide and not trying to cooperate. That's cruel, in my book........but then, WW's can be the worst.

Another cruel action is bringing up her doubts before she M you, and she still wonders if there is another man that would fit her better. But apparently, she is not compassionate about how that makes you feel.

I don't know that she's being deliberately cruel. Quite frankly, my take on the primary reason she is "still here" is that it is precisely because she does not want to be cruel or hurt anyone. This has always been part of her nature that she hates to hurt people or to see them hurt--she is very giving of her time, very empathetic, very deferential to others in terms of her own interests versus theirs (her work is a GREAT example where she takes way too much s**t in order that the other girls who work with and for her will have an easier go of it). She has repeatedly said that one of the reasons she hates MC is that she feels like every other thing she says is hurting me in one way or another, though I have told her in response that her being open and honest with me and leveling with me about things is not hurtful at all compared to the alternative.

In this case, my take is that it is more in the nature of rebelliousness. She simply doesn't want to be told that she "has to" do something. She has always been this way. Always. She was the most headstrong of her three siblings and her M & D will tell you that. She always constrained her own behavior due to her Catholic upbringing in significant matters, but even when she was little, my FIL will tell you stories about how the best way to get her to do something was to tell her "not do it." Almost got her hurt badly a couple of times. Layer on that added layer of WW resentment and rebellion and you got trouble. And resentment. One of her big mantras in all of this has (or at least had) been that she is tired of doing what she is "supposed to" do. So, if I'm leaning on her to say "You must say "I'm committed", that makes it that much harder to say those exact words.

The reason I bring up these two actions again, is b/c it's very obvious she is self absorbed. Perhaps she has been self absorbed since before the wedding. Maybe she has always been that way. If so, then I don't know whether or not she'll make the progress you want.

I don't know that she has always been self-absorbed, at least not any more than the average human being is (though admittedly that can still be quite a lot). During and since the A, however, there has definitely been an element of that: "I know im being selfish but I felt like for the first time I was doing something for me, that I. wanted." Now, she has not trotted out that line of talk in a while, and WRT last week's talk, it was one of the things I thought might be significant. In the past she would have been inclined to say, in so many words "I am angry with myself for not being stronger and leaving when I was already fed up and done and that that led to more hurt for everyone" and/or angry because "only now, when I decided I wanted this one relationship did you decide you wanted to try to fix things, too late". LW, she said she was angry with herself "for not trying harder to fix things between us before they got to be so broken". To me that was a bit of a shift, but whoo knows how significant.

At any rate, she has had doubts about us and commitment problems since, yes, before we were married, though we were more "into" each other than she was willing to grant a few months ago. She has since started "remembering" that things were better than she was letting on previously, but still maintains she had doubts. Which I totally believe... because we had a couple starts/stops and she told me something similar way back when. Though, ultimately, she did tell me "I want you and only you."

She talks as if she doesn't have a clue as to what you want from her.

Oh, she knows. She might not want to admit it to me, or to herself, but she knows. You can tell when she calls or talks to me. There's still some rebelliousness there... which is an issue for the IC, IMO.

My concern is that even in non-sexual relationships, compassion and respect for the other one exist. I just haven't seen you reporting where she is giving of herself in the relationship. She is just there. A WW has a lot of work to do on the inside, and if she is truly doing that work........instead of stalling or backsliding, then her H should start to see a little glimmer of hope.

Clarify on this, please. I think I know what you are getting at but I am not certain. She obviously has work to do on the inside but... what do you mean and what should I be looking for in terms of "giving herself in the R"?

The non-sexual touches should have gotten further along by this time, IMHO. I mean, she doesn't want you touching any part of her?

Some of this is probably on me. I am not and never have been much of an "initiator". The current rift between us, seemingly setting us back to "pre-dating" has not made it any easier in that regard. There is fear of rejection, sure, but also fear of scaring her away. There was a point where she did not want me touching any part of her, during the A and then for a while afterward. That is not the case now, as I was trying to explain in my previous post. She will brush past me or lean up against me or let me put my arm around her or snuggle up to me some in bed, and I do touch her lightly in passing or when we are talking or out. So she is definitely more open to it, and she has said herself "I agree with MC that I think we just need to try this" (Though she also said, albeit several weeks back when last we talked to MC that she had a hard time envisioning some of the more sexual touches that were included in the latter stages of this program that MC wanted us to do, though she said she was "Willing to try to get there.")

You said there has been no mouth on mouth kissing for years? Wow! If there was ever a sign a MR is in trouble, it is when there is no touching........and no kissing. frown.

Yes. I have made not secret of that, here. Though, my threads are extensive here, at this point, and you are helping many many different folks here, so you may not recall but, yes, we definitely had not only a SSM but an intimacy-starved marriage. It has been a few years since we kissed each other goodbye or hello, or even engaged in any physical touching. A lot of factors created that dynamic, some out of my control, but it is what it is. Our marriage suffered grave, grave damage as a result. Perhaps fatally. I don't know if it will be possible to overcome all of that. It might, as you and others have said, take a separation between us and her missing the relationship we have been rebuilding as well as missing the "new improved hoosjim" if we are ever to get there.

Have you started sleeping back in the bed with her?

Yes, but it is not as cozy as it was prior to last week's talk. I think we really need a good night out together or something where we connect a little bit to break the ice.

Another cruel action is bringing up her doubts before she M you, and she still wonders if there is another man that would fit her better. But apparently, she is not compassionate about how that makes you feel.

And, another question about this-- And some here are going to accuse me of "defending her" but: Do I not want her to be honest about her feelings? I mean, IDK... I think I'd rather she be telling me that than not telling me that if that's the way she feels... Or is it about timing and wording and form?

[hoosjim]

Three oddball unrelated updates/tidbits:

1) W not only agreed to next MC session, but came home and said, unsolicited: "I can take off Wednesday two weeks after that-- we could go down and do an all-day intensive with her on that day."

2) She was going to cash a check she got from my Mom at Christmas-- we each got one-- and showed me a stash of checks she had received from my side of the family over the past year plus (dating back to Fall 2016, when the A started)... and she said "I just didn't feel right cashing them..." (Good to know she had at least a little bit of conscience while she was running around on me.)

3) Now the bad. At dinner tonight, she mentioned bringing bff (who is in town for the weekend) out with us tomorrow night (Friday). I think she is going to try to be peacemaker but... I just don't see how that ever happens. For those who haven't been following me, bff is and was very wayward-- cheated three times on my own BF to whom she was married for a number of years and now is finally getting a D. Bff was, at least at one point, working directly opposed to my MR-- assisting my W in covering it up and, becoming assimilated into OM's circle of friends. W says she (W) is a "big girl" and bff never did anything that W didn't ask her to do. Of course, I know this is not true as, just this past October, when W was showing real signs of improvement, bff called W from OM's bar, with OM and friends in background, and tried to entice her to come out and meet them. My W admitted she wanted to come (tearfully) but said "no." W does not know i know this-- it was discovered in the waning days of me keeping regular tabs on her, which i no longer do. Since then, AFAIK, bff has behaved herself, but i know from talking to my own bff that W's bff is still toxically angry at him and, by extension, all of my bff's frat bro friends from college (One of us found out about the infidelity and angrily confronted her at a get together a few months back.) I also know that bff has, at times, at least played at being "neutral" WRT what my w is doing (me vs. OM), but I can't get out of my head her calling W and upsetting her and setting her back. I also kinda half suspect her of slipping me a mickey way back last summer, though i have absolutely no proof... just that i blacked out after three 1/2 drinks, and I am no novice drinker.

Should i go along with this and see if i can make peace with bff? Jump up and down and scream HELL NO!(?) Or just find an excuse to be elsewhere? Fridays lately we have typically reserved for "us", so i don't really want to give that up but... IDK, spending an evening with her and bff (and bff can actually be a very fun and engaging person) doesn't really excite me.

[Verum]

Should i go along with this and see if i can make peace with bff? Jump up and down and scream HELL NO!(?) Or just find an excuse to be elsewhere? Fridays lately we have typically reserved for "us", so i don't really want to give that up but... IDK, spending an evening with her and bff (and bff can actually be a very fun and engaging person) doesn't really excite me.

I find many elements of your sitch similar to mine. In 2012, my W had a much younger friend who was very toxic to the relationship. I think I made the mistake of letting this person be a part of our lives.

In your case, this sounds like you should think about your boundaries. Can you tell the W, "you BFF did this and this, and I will not spend time with her." ?

[Ginger1]

I was thinking about things. You have been living like roommates for many years, this is nothing new or prompted by the A. I think it is great that you both want to strive for a healthy M, but I didn't realize it was so intimacy starved as well as sex starved. No physical touch prior to this is kind of a game changer. I really do think the only want you are going to get to the point of regaining that is through serious therapy focusing on THAT. You will need to discuss the steps you need to take to regain that level of intimacy. There will be lots of exercises and practices to get back there. And willingness on both your parts. Sex is something probably farther in the future. You need to simply learn to touch again. To kiss. To hold hands, to cuddle.

I have a high sex drive. But I will tell you, I could live without sex before I could live without the emotional/physical intimacy of simple loving gestures.

Take her up on the offer of intensive therapy. I hope you find a way to make this work.

[hoosjim]

In your case, this sounds like you should think about your boundaries. Can you tell the W, "you BFF did this and this, and I will not spend time with her." ?

A couple things here:

On the "oh hell no" side: she cheated on my bf, not once, not twice, but three times. Last time sith a mutual friend, wrecking several friendships in the process. She also, under the most friendly interpretation I can come up with, assisted my W in both carrying on my W's A and covering it up. At worst, she enabled and encouraged it (though I have no hard evidence of that prior to my W going "no contact." Finally, while W and I were in the early stages of "working on the MR"/reconciliation, I know for a fact that she called W from Om's hangout, with OM present, and tried to encourage W to come join them, putting W in tears and definitely "Setting her back" for a couple of weeks (W said "no" to the invite.)

On the "positive" side of the ledger... Well, there really isn't one, I guess. This is my W's bff, and she has failed to cut the cord even knowing what her bff has done: ("I know and everyone knows what she did was wrong, but now that's in the past, and wouldn't it be best if we could just wish her well and hope she and everybody else is happy?") Many months ago, when W was still in her ongoing A, when I first told her about her bff's A, and what a jerk bff's AP was to our mutual friend (really rubbed his nose in it, saying it was all my friends fault and calling him a loser, etc) she cut me off saying "No, stop please, I don't want to hear"-- and not angrily, but definitely in a plaintive way indicative of her not being able to process the ugly truth about that A and about her bff.

Whatever... bff is still a very important person in my W's life. Probably her most important non-blood relationship outside of me an perhaps moreso than me. And W is afraid she can't have both relationships. She has twice invited bff to come stay at house overnight and once to go out with us, and bff declined everytime. I, for my part, have played it cool and indicated I'd have no problem being somewhere with her and bff... as long as I knew that bff was supportive of our MR. This has effectively been bluff-calling on my part. I actually have no desire whatsoever to hang out with bff, but, given that I have more reason than any one else in our circle of friends to dislike her due to her role directly oppositional to my MR in addition to her own infidelity, I don't believe she will ever accept one of W's invitations. (She has unfriended on FB every one of us associated with my friend and frat brother, and shuns them all like the plague, and that's just because she knows they know how badly she treated my friend-- in my case, there's that PLUS her role in trying to draw away my W). I don't want to look like the jerk/heel/difficult party. Let bff assume that role.

And, if by some chance bff calls MY bluff, I am pretty sure that these days I can play it cool in such a social situation.

Additionally, my W has made it a point to point out to me on a couple of occasions (most recently when we had our little dust-up last week) that she has really been trying to include me and "let me in" to more areas of her life: Inviting me to her office parties, inviting me to more family functions and trips with her parents (which she had tapered off on over the past couple of years and especially during the A), inviting me to go out with her and her GFs... And she is absolutely right-- she has been doing that. And now she wants me to make nice with bff. I suppose I could try... even though I have no actual desire and, as I stated above, I don't think SHE will agree to come out with ME.

The only boundaries I have established WRT bff is that I will not have her working against our MR and I wont hang out or socialize with bff unless I have some indication that she is
...no longer working against our MR and that she is sorry for her previous role in aiding and assisting the A. And even in that case, I told me W that I don't imagine I will ever trust her enough to be the fairly close friend with her that I was at one point (way back when during the time when all four of us were happily married.)



And some clarification on the above: Neither W nor bff know that I know about the "bff encouraging my W to come out and meet her and OM at the bar" incident back in October... and I'd just assume keep it that way-- no reason for them to know I was periodically monitoring her at that time . My W made the right decision and didn't go, but it still messed her up some. And besides which, I "have" plenty of other reasons, well known to all parties, to mistrust bff, though, arguably, that is the most disturbing one.

[Holding]

Jim, I think your W's willingness to do intensive MC is a very big, positive sign.

I wonder if her trying to bring BFF around is an attempt to make peace, but I understand your reservations. Maybe BFF will apologize? IDK.

What was the nature of y'alls night out tonight? Was it something intimate for just the two of you, or y'all hanging out at a place with others? If it's the former, I'd say no to the BFF going. If it's the latter, can you take a separate car and just leave early if you start to get a bad vibe from BFF?

[sandi2]

Quote:
My concern is that even in non-sexual relationships, compassion and respect for the other one exist. I just haven't seen you reporting where she is giving of herself in the relationship. She is just there. A WW has a lot of work to do on the inside, and if she is truly doing that work........instead of stalling or backsliding, then her H should start to see a little glimmer of hope.

Clarify on this, please. I think I know what you are getting at but I am not certain. She obviously has work to do on the inside but... what do you mean and what should I be looking for in terms of "giving herself in the R"?

Does she do things for you, like take you a cup of coffe, fix your favorite meal, run errands for you, take care of certain jobs instead of expecting you to do it.......like having the car washed, mowing the yard, etc. Does she show genuine interest when you are talking......by nodding her head and asking questions? Does she show you as much consideration as she would give a co-worker, neighbor, or a new acquaintance? Does she show you compassion when you are upset, sad, sick or injured? Does she offer encouragement when you are worried, nervous, discouraged, etc.? Does she act appreciative when you do something for her? Does she smile at you when you enter the room? Does she just give you some sign that you are important to her life? Notice that none of these actions require any touching, and could be given to most anyone outside a sexual relationship. Nevertheless, it is a form of giving of herself. Some WW's are so cold and distant to their H, that simply showing a little kindness would take more effort and feel more draining than she's willing to do. If she's in a bad mood, it's not likely she is going to do much that requires giving of herself.......even if it may be seen to most as just common courteousy.

Okay, let's say your W is already doing the type of things I mentioned above, and you are wanting to know what you should be seeing from her going into another level.
Even without sexual intimacy, there are many ways she can show effort at giving a little more of herself to the relationship. She can call you during the day, just b/c she's thinking of you and wondering how your day is going. There should be non-sexual touching throughout the day.......or at the least, throughout the week. She can pat you on the back, touch your shoulder, sit close to you on the couch and touch your arm occasionally. She can look lovingly into your eyes, instead of looking away or showing unconcern. She can speak in soft, sweet tones.......and of course, respectfully. She can laugh with you and show she is enjoying being with you. She should be able to show you that you matter to her. Maybe this is still not up to the level you are wanting, but for a WW who is trying to recover and is serious about saving her SSM.......these very things could require more of her than she's ready to give.

If a WW sees herself as simply being "there" in the M as being all that she can give........then the H is probably in for a long, dry, and cold wait.

But let's just say she has been showing the efforts I gave in previous examples, and now she is ready to progress a little futher. What are some things you would see? When you leave for the day, she she should be able to give you a light hug. You know, just a friendly little hug and wish you a good day. In time, this can progress to standing closer while she give the hugs, instead of keep significate space between the bodies. She can begin giving little peck kisses on the side of your face.......not getting anywhere too close to your lips. It's as if she's trying to do it quickly and move on, but it is a big step for her. Eventually, she may say some last mintue words before you leave, and adjust your tie, compliment you, or some little something that just gives her a few more seconds with you before you go out. By this time, she should be able to stand close to you without looking as if she'll run for the hills if you breathe on her. She would not stiffen her body or pull back whenever you walk up behind her. She would begin putting effort in other, more personal ways......like runnning water for your bath, giving you a back rub, running her hand along your arm, buy your favorite cologne to wear, b/c she loves it, dressing in the style or colors you love to on her, etc. IMHO, those are the initial actions of giving herself to the relationship.......as best that can at the time, unless she is a cold hearted b'tch who could win an award for acting.........(and unfortunately, some WW's qualify), getting back to this level in a SSM takes effort and selfLESSness. The acts of selflessness is a 180 from the selfish momentum of a WW. If 180's were difficult for you, then imagine her having to get her heart cleaned up and find the emotional energy to start giving of herself to a M that had some serious SSM issues for years.

None of these things I've mention require her kissing you on the lips, taking showers together, touching you sexually, doing a strip tease, etc. IMHO, it would be unrealistic expectations to think your W would go from zero (no intimacy for years) to a 100 (regularly initiating sex ). However, she can put forth the effort to start out with the things I first mentioned. And as she feels more natural and comfortable with it, then she can slowly work in other things to emotionally prepare her for an intimate relationship with her H. To me, true intimacy is opening yourself to the other spouse. In to me see = Intimacy. If she wants to have loving intimacy, she has to be emotionally prepared to let you into her deepest, most sacred part of herself. And what some selfish people don't understand is that she has to give herself to you, in order to receive the joy and loving feelings she wants to experience. Of course, a mind-blowing, toe-curling, hair-pulling, earth-shattering orgasam doesn't hurt, either.

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The non-sexual touches should have gotten further along by this time, IMHO. I mean, she doesn't want you touching any part of her?

Some of this is probably on me. I am not and never have been much of an "initiator". The current rift between us, seemingly setting us back to "pre-dating" has not made it any easier in that regard. There is fear of rejection, sure, but also fear of scaring her away. There was a point where she did not want me touching any part of her, during the A and then for a while afterward. That is not the case now, as I was trying to explain in my previous post. She will brush past me or lean up against me or let me put my arm around her or snuggle up to me some in bed, and I do touch her lightly in passing or when we are talking or out. So she is definitely more open to it, and she has said herself "I agree with MC that I think we just need to try this" (Though she also said, albeit several weeks back when last we talked to MC that she had a hard time envisioning some of the more sexual touches that were included in the latter stages of this program that MC wanted us to do, though she said she was "Willing to try to get there.")

I think I will pick up here tomorrow. It's getting late and I need to call it a night.