I think she's saying "I already told you I'm committed to the M, and I'm already showing you I am, so why do you keep beating me over the head with this?"
Nah, AS, I think she just doesn't get it and doesn't want to get it. She doesn't think there's any problems with staying out late,unannounced, and also doesn't recognize the patterns in herself that show she's still holding on to something of the A. And she is still, in some respect, carrying resentment of me for all that came before.
Some of the progress looks good because things were so bleak before, but... I just think she's not there right now.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
IMHO, a WW has to have her feet held to the fire.......in order to come back all the way. The MC sessions have been put to the side for a while, she won't make appointment for IC, and it appears there may be a slack in transparency. Even if she has not directly contacted the OM, she is putting herself in a vulnerable position by getting too slack in these areas. She is blaming you in some of her responses about the ring, etc. To me, attitude shows what's in the heart.
It seems so incredible that she just "doesn't get it". If she didn't get it, then why play the games and give you the flimsy excuses for missing two exits, staying so late after work, going close by the OM's hangout, and other things she's done? I think she gets it enough to cover her tracks.
I am not surprised by her reaction, especially about having sex. 15 yrs is a long time to live together without being intimate. She probably does resent it. And she resented your statements about working toward having an intimate MR. Her sexual desire may not be in tune to you, but that's not to say it can't happen. She needs to do some work on her heart. If she does the heart work, she'll get in tune to you.
If I had not had someone working with me, holding my feet to the flame......I doubt I would be here writing this post tonight.
((hugs))
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Sandi, a couple of questions, and for the first i am going to be blasted by half the board but i am going to ask it anyway:
A couple of caveats first: #1, i don't think my W is even at the place where i am going to ask you if it is a viable place to be (follow that? :-/ ), let alone at a place of saying "I am fully and totally committed to this MR", and #2, I understand that what i am about to propose may allow "wiggle room", but...
Is there a place in the WW recovery cycle for a stage of "I dont think i can do this, but i want to try"(and by this i mean they actually DO want to try and arent just blowing smoke) or is the only acceptable posture and response, in your opinion, "I am fully and totally committed to the M and will do anything and endure anything to save it" (?)
Also, who would you say "worked with you and held your feet to the flame?" The kind folks on this board? Your H? Or did you have a MC/IC (I forget and couldn't find any reference to it.)
Quote:
It seems so incredible that she just "doesn't get it". If she didn't get it, then why play the games and give you the flimsy excuses for missing two exits, staying so late after work, going close by the OM's hangout, and other things she's done? I think she gets it enough to cover her tracks.
And, yes, she has put herself in these situations (in OM's neighborhood) way too often-- at least five times that i know of in past two and a half months including the time she want after i basically told her she shouldnt go to the store-- to have been accidental. It kind of boggles my mind that she continues to trot out the "Wrong turn" story. She's done that FOUR TIMES!!! And these are just the times i know of where i've called her for one reason or another. I suppose there might be more. A couple of times i know for a fact she didn't take the final detour to drive right by OM's spot but... the fact that she'd even drive over out of her way to get in that area is disturbing, even if she did get cold feet at the very end. I have to think if she keeps it up eventually shell get to the point where she doesnt get cold feet.
I went to my spot tonight, met some friends, but i missed her. First time she hasn't stopped by on a Thursday in probably three months. I missed her. Not wavering, just being honest about my feelings.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Is there a place in the WW recovery cycle for a stage of "I dont think i can do this, but i want to try"(and by this i mean they actually DO want to try and arent just blowing smoke) or is the only acceptable posture and response, in your opinion, "I am fully and totally committed to the M and will do anything and endure anything to save it" (?)
Jim, I'd say that's about the place you are at.. Fear of Better Options pops in my mind, she knows she "should" be with you, but she is afraid she will be giving up better options so she will never actually commit. If your ww doesn't chose to be with you, doesn't decide that you are the one she wants to be with, you will likely live how you are now until she finds what she considers to be a better option.
Go read NicoleR's intro, her H left her for OW for a short period (2 weeks or months I think), then came back unexpectedly and 2 years later she is here because her H never actually committed to fixing things and left again. There have been a few other posters over the last 2 years I've been here that were here because of the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th A, but I can't think of their names right now. In every case, they all say the same thing, they never resolved what happened, their spouse never understood the devastation they caused, they all let their spouses back and just tried to be happy going forward without looking back first.
M - 9 1/2 years 5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA 10/31/16 - We sold house 01/10/18 - D Finalized
Was very tired when I wrote my last. The hypothetical I proposed should have read: "I don't know if I can do this, but I want to try"... (as opposed to "I don't think I can do this but I want to try...") Because words matter...
Originally Posted By: coconut
Fear of Better Options pops in my mind, she knows she "should" be with you, but she is afraid she will be giving up better options so she will never actually commit.
Its interesting that you post that, because that has been a nagging thought/sentiment that my W has carried around for a LOOONG time, even before we met back in our 20s. Back then, we had a couple of starts and stops before we got together for good-- both times because she got cold feet in one respect or another. She has commitment issues. I remember back then was the first time she told me something to the effect of "I always used to wonder ever since I was a little girl if I could ever get married because I would never know if I had met the perfect person for me-- there's no way you would ever know unless you met every person in the world!" She of course has said something like that more recently, as well, in MC I think, when talking about how she was never "all in" on our marriage because she "was never 100% certain that hoosjim was the one for me... I always had doubts even when I was attracted to him and getting married etc etc".
But the fact that she's carried around that sentiment for so long tells me it's probably REALLY ingrained and that we REALLY are not going to get anywhere unless and until she goes into IC and works out all of her s**t.
Last edited by Cadet; 01/23/1810:04 AM. Reason: Combine posts
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Is there a place in the WW recovery cycle for a stage of "I dont think i can do this, but i want to try"(and by this i mean they actually DO want to try and arent just blowing smoke) or is the only acceptable posture and response, in your opinion, "I am fully and totally committed to the M and will do anything and endure anything to save it" (?)
That's a very hard question to answer, and it may be determined by the individual stitch, IDK. Until she has completely gone through the withdrawal period, I think the best she can do is to be "willing" to try. Her "want to" isn't there, b/c she still wants something with the OM. Remember that the WW is all about her emotions. She wants to feel the desire to try again. She just wants the desire to be there without any trying to achieve it. Was it your W that said it should come naturally, without having to "work" at it? Honestly, I don't think she can feel the "want to", as long as she carries a torch for another guy or thinks her H isn't the right man for her. But she can make the decision to do the work, whether or not she feels any emotion about it. Right after ending the A, I think it's very difficult for a WW to say she is committed to working on the MR. "Committed" sounds so final to her ears......almost like a death sentence. I mean, she thinks she's missed her last chance at happiness by ending things with the OM.
I remember board members asking me couldn't I just commit to working on my MR. But at the time, I felt very resentful and had no desire to try whatsoever. I was so low that I had to reach the place of just being willing....to think about being willing to try, if you know what I mean. I felt as if I was giving up my last chance at true happiness....and to escape my misery. I think your W may be experiencing it, too. The fact that she wasn't even sure at the time she got M that you were the right/best person for her....I don't even know say about it. And, she's still saying it. It must be very painful for you! I'm surprised, frankly, that she has not had several previous affairs. She has the mindset of still looking for Mr. Right. She's looking for the fairy tale. Until she comes to terms with that issue, I don't know if she'll put her all into M to a man she doesn't even know if he's right for her, b/c emotionally she is still looking for a better deal. I believe all WW's think her H is right for her at that time, but your W had serious doubts before she M you.
To know she had serious commitment issues before getting M, and still has them......only shows she needs IC, IMHO. I mean, it didn't just start when OM entered the picture. This has been something she held on to for a long time. Every time her emotional needs were not met by you, it would have been easy for her to think it was b/c you were not the right man for her.
Without therapy to guide her through the work on her mental attitude about the fairy tale, it may be expecting too much from her. I'm not saying you are expecting too much for her to do more in showing you she is trying to cooperate with what you need. But she may not give you those words of commitment. It's not fair, but that may be the reality, until she is willing to talk it out with an IC. She was not even willing to do that much. Maybe it's something deep......or maybe it's stubbornness to let go of the fantasy.
Letting go of the fantasy was very hard for me. I could not find the emotional strength to even think about "trying" to do work on my MR. I was so depressed, as well as having other health issues.
After I ended my A, I asked my H if he would attend MC with me. He would not even consider it. That was a blow, b/c I knew we really needed it. I went to see an IC. I told her about my A, and the first words out of her mouth was that I had done nothing wrong. I had enough sense to know that wasn't what I needed to be told. I needed someone who was not going to let me off the hook so easily. I got it from the DB board, especially a couple of women who would mentor me off the board. Back then, we could email other board members. I would stay on the board every day until I could not hold open my eyes that night. I ordered a ton of books that helped me. I wish I could tell you the one that really opened my eyes, but due to policy, I can't.
Yes, being the only WW on the board....I definitely had my feet held to the fire! We use to have a few tough guys that were ready to devour a WW. (But just between you & I, I think I held my own pretty well with them. Anyway, shortly afterwards, my H's health took a downward spiral, and has been poor ever since. Of course, I blamed myself, and the fact he found my messages to the OM. He even admitted that he felt he was having an heart attack on one of those occasions. Once I got through the withdrawals, I never doubted I had made the right decision. Doing the right thing was always important to me, so that had a bearing on my decision to stay with my H. BTW, feelings for my H did eventually return, but it took quite a while b/c I wouldn't let go of fantasizing about how things may have gone if I had left with the OM. Once I got past that part, then I had room in my heart for my H.
Another thing I give credit for helping me stay on the straight and narrow while going through the withdrawals was transparency. I had read about the importance of following a transparency plan, from some of those tough guys I mentioned. So when I decided to end my contact with OM, I began applying the transparency technique, even though my H never asked. He would often walk up behind me to see why I was on the computer so much, and I told him I was posting on the board. He even read my messages for a while, without my knowledge at the time. Transparency was helping me to stay honest with him and with myself. Maybe that is why I encourage it so much.
I did not bounce back. It was slow and agonizing. I had to do work on my heart, and it took about two years before I actually felt that I was emotionally ready and had the strength to work on the MR. I was so drained that I was like a stroke victim trying to learn how to do simple tasks again. The WW has a ton of unseen work to do in herself before she can put much effort into the MR. However, let me add that I did not do anything that resembled GGW behavior, take overnight trips without my H, or meet up to have a girls night out. I did not go for drinks with my co-workers, and I did not stay late at work. So, even if I wasn't putting enough effort into the working on the MR.....at least, I wasn't doing activity that caused my H to worry. I'd like to think that counts for something. It's all work for her......if she's being honest and behaving herself.
I don't know if anything I've said answers your questions. I wish I could give a more clear and satisfied statement. It took me about two years, so I would have to say that it comes gradually and in baby steps, depending on the individual and the stitch.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
How are things going, Jim? Hope to hear from you soon.
We didn't do any socializing this weekend and we had a lot going on with S1 back in town to take care of some commitments he had, and I had a get-together with my friends on Sunday afternoon-evening, so there were lots of ready-made excuses to keep us out of each others' hair.
After i had slept apart from her for a third night and things had been not quite nearly as warm between us-- Convo came up after i had been out with S1 and picked up lunch and did not pick up anything for her. This was not a punitive or deliberate action on my part, its just the conversation we had had on the phone before i detoured to get food made me think she didn't want anything-- but in retrospect i really just hadn't been paying attention. She seemed pretty sad/hurt by that and I felt pretty bad-- that sort of thoughtlessness/fortgetfullness was part of my old pattern that really got under her skin, plus not a great example for the two young men i am raising-- so I had gone back out to get her something since we had nothing at the house and she was busy with a work project. The convo came about after i had apologized for not getting her something for lunch earlier and we were talking about things in general(And remember please that I am not a Dictaphone so this is only paraphrasing as best I can recall):
W: "I felt like things were going in a positive direction, like we were getting closer and like things are going better, and then we have one of these setbacks [our convo from last week when she had been out late]... and then you need space and then i feel like maybe i need some space, too... I feel like i am doing what you want me to do and so i get confused and upset when you say all that"
On being committed to the MR: "I didn't say the word "committed" the other night when you kept asking me, but I am. Maybe i never said it before but I am committed. Do I know if i can give you what you want in terms of intimacy? No, i don't, but i want to try. I know that is going to take work. I can't give you all of that right this moment, though... I'm just not there right now."
On getting home from her work wine-down late last Thursday, after she had gone a bit over-time before texting me and then only vaguely until she was an hour-plus late. "I know this is on me, that I created this dynamic by doing what i did where you easily mistrust me, but i am trying. I've been letting you know when I am going to do something with friends and I have been calling when i am out or later than i said i would be, and this is the first time i have even been out "late" by myself. And this time even that was only because ________ got sick and had to be taken care of and driven home [also truth--hj]." She also mentioned, very obliquely and briefly, the fact that i had recently stayed out two hours past my predicted return time and that i had not called or texted at all.
On the lapse in counseling and being committed to the counselling: "We have been doing that... we just haven't had the chance over the holidays and then working with S1 on his issues. And yes, it is outside of my comfort zone to talk to outsiders about my problems or health issues [this is actually true and has always been... it's a family culture on her side] let alone take the initiative to approach a doctor or counselor, but I am happy to let you continue making the appointments and to keep going."
FWIW, my MC/IC told me in our IC session that it is okay and perhaps even necessary at this point for me to be scheduling all the appointments myself and "bringing her [W] along", that hopefully MC can continue to talk to her and prevail upon her to enter IC.
For my part, I maintained when talking to W that that (IC) as recommended by the MC was something that is "must" and something I "need" if we are to keep doing this. However,on the intimacy/full-marriage issue I granted that i did not mean that I needed her jump into the sack with me right this instant (Which is the way W said she took our earlier talk) --just that i needed her to be committed to a MR that included that.
I also reiterated that i needed her to continue to be transparent, especially in dynamics (her "out with the girls", for instance) that were problematic when she was in the A.
I did ask her what she wanted from a MR with me, and what she felt she "needed" in order to continue-- she said she thought a lot of things now were better than they had ever been between us, friendship, fun, family dynamics, child-rearing teamwork, but that in some ways (mainly sex/intimacy) "not so much", which is where she talked about not knowing if she could give me that but that she wanted to try and knew it would take work. She didn't really give me any pre-requisites that she "needed" though.
There was also something she said, and it is driving me crazy that i can't remember what, that was a significant retrenchment/retreat from the typical WW script and from the way she had previously spoken about that particular thing recently. It's driving me NUTS! It wasn't i don't think any return to fond memories of things we'd done or change in her way of talking about what we'd had in the past (though she has already retrenched quite a bit on this already-- "Once those two little boys were born, i was "all-in"; A-HA! I remember, it was just a little something, maybe a slip. But: In the past she has been all about saying how "mad she was at herself for being weak when she was younger, and allowing herself to be drawn into a MR that she wasn't ready for and committed to and that now multiple people (including her) stood to be hurt by that." In our most recent talk, at one point she said "And I am really angry with myself for letting that other relationship go as far as it did, for letting it get too close, and that I just "checked out" instead of trying harder to save our MR before I got to the point where i felt i could step outside the MR and have the affair." That was something very different than anything she has said previously. Maybe something maybe nothing, IDK.
Whatever, she's been in kind of a funky mood again the past couple of days, though. Work bearing down on her for starters but i think its more.
I am going to check with W on her schedule tonight and then schedule a MC session in the next week or so. See how it goes. I am going to reiterate there that I need her to get into IC, and, if she doesn't, I am going to suggest that some time apart might be better for us. I may float that idea out there anyway.
Also, FWIW in terms of behavior, she has been wearing a bracelet i gave her at Christmas and has not taken it off since. And, no, she has not put back on her wedding ring-- something else i plan to bring up in the MC, probably couched as "you're not wearing your rings now, what would it look like to you to be at a point where you would put them back on? Or is it just that im not wearing one either? Because, if the latter, I say lets just go buy me one when we leave here today."
Last edited by Cadet; 01/23/1810:03 AM. Reason: Combine posts
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Ugh. Today's dose of bad news: Had lunch with my own BF, whose toxic STBXWW is my own wife's bff and chief bad influence. His D is actually dragging out a bit (funny how that happens when you stop giving your Ww everything she wants) and because of this as well as other factors my W's bff will now not be moving to FLA until mid June at earliest. She had previously been planning to move this month.
Oh well, maybe it will be a blessing and having her in closer proximity for these extra months will allow my W to finally see what a selfish, toxic, train wreck she is, as opposed to someone to be idolized.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
1. I think you need to sit down and figure out what you need to see from your wife. Are you ok with her wanting to try, or do you need her to tell you that she wants to be with you and will do anything to save your marriage? Do you want her to actively seek help (MC or IC), or are you ok with her just going if you schedule it? you get the idea, write that list down and share it with us.
2. Are you willing to walk away if she doesn’t do show those things, or will you stay anyway and just fumble along as you have for the last year?
3. Do you believe that your wife had a PA? Would you walk if you found out she had?
M - 9 1/2 years 5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA 10/31/16 - We sold house 01/10/18 - D Finalized
Anyway, shortly afterwards, my H's health took a downward spiral, and has been poor ever since. Of course, I blamed myself, and the fact he found my messages to the OM. He even admitted that he felt he was having an heart attack on one of those occasions. Once I got through the withdrawals, I never doubted I had made the right decision. Doing the right thing was always important to me, so that had a bearing on my decision to stay with my H. BTW, feelings for my H did eventually return, but it took quite a while b/c I wouldn't let go of fantasizing about how things may have gone if I had left with the OM. Once I got past that part, then I had room in my heart for my H.