WW, A ended, but limbo and unanswered Qs.(My 10th)

[hoosjim]

Have you decided whether or not to have the talk?

Yes, I am going to. Trying to wait for good timing as opposed to just jumping on her at the first opportunity, though, as I have been wont to do in the past. It'll be an important conversation.

No opportunity this past weekend, which was all about getting S19 situated and ready to go back to school, scheduling classes, saying goodbye, etc. I drove him down late Sunday night and stayed over and didn't come back til yesterday AM. W's work is exhausting even when she isn't working 50 hour weeks like she is now, so most weekday evenings she's going to be pretty tired unless she has an early day, which does happen with increasing frequency these days. Yesterday, however, she had hair/salon appointment directly after work so wasn't home until almost 7:30, had dinner and very sleepy after that.

Was also another frustratingly enjoyable/fun and spontaneous evening out on Friday. Boys went out to meet some friends for dinner, so we went out for light dinner and maybe a drink at nearby pub that has live acoustic music. Pub pulled an audible and had a full-on band, though... a really good one, and W wanted to stay a bit, so we did. Had more drinks. Met and talked with the band and their wives-- fun group. Also met and talked with a couple sitting next to us for a while-- also a good pair. Then we were basically adopted by a Bolivian family out for one of their birthdays and we ended up staying until close. These kinds of things seem to keep happening to us... like pretty much every time we go out. Like we have some sort of weird chemistry/karma/kismet going on that leads us to have unplanned adventures.

There was also some somewhat weird sexual intimacy between us later (not ML). Progressed from a very frank and open conversation we were having about sexual likes and dislikes. Ended up with some fairly intimate touching, caressing, etc. Didn't seem "weird" in the sort of "forced" sense that "the kiss" from a few weeks back was but... idunno. It was just kind of strange. Seemed a natural and comfortable progression and there was no "pull back" or shut down by her or by me, but... we completely skipped kissing, which you'd normally think to be a natural early step through the progression there. And neither of us made the move in that direction and it didn't seem odd that we didn't... which was one of the things that made it odd. The alcohol, not a lot, but enough that we were both tipsy, probably added to the odd vibe. At any rate, it didn't "spoil" the evening like the strange kiss from a few weeks back but... at the same time it wasn't the type of thing where I was like "well, we're clearly on the right track and speeding towards reconciliation, here."

I do imagine it will come up when we talk: "Well, if we're not moving in that direction, what was Friday night all about?"

[AnotherStander]

I do imagine it will come up when we talk: "Well, if we're not moving in that direction, what was Friday night all about?"

Good point. If there's one thing you have it's time. Maybe delay the convo a while and see how things progress. Remember DB'ing is all about baby steps, rarely are there big sudden moves. It's incremental progress, and it certainly sounds like you're seeing that so forcing a talk right now might make you seem impatient and pushy.

[DonH]

Okay, I've been thinking this for a while now. Problem is, it's just my gut, based on what you write and boils down to nothing more than mind reading. Thing is, I really do think your W is trying. I really do. Why else would she do as much with you as she has lately? What W that does not want to be with H spends the hours with you that she does? And now another baby step forward it would appear.

I don't want to try to suggest what to do here. I really don't know. That's better left to an expert like sand. All I know is from where I sit your W is more in that out. She clearly needs to be prompted forward. I would just not push too hard or give an ultimatum. I think AS is correct in this is all about baby steps. One step forawd and two back only with you it appears to be two steps forward and one back.

I'd certainly keep doing what you are doing. It certainly seems to be working.

[artista]

Okay, I've been thinking this for a while now. Problem is, it's just my gut, based on what you write and boils down to nothing more than mind reading. Thing is, I really do think your W is trying. I really do. Why else would she do as much with you as she has lately? What W that does not want to be with H spends the hours with you that she does? And now another baby step forward it would appear.

I don't want to try to suggest what to do here. I really don't know. That's better left to an expert like sand. All I know is from where I sit your W is more in that out. She clearly needs to be prompted forward. I would just not push too hard or give an ultimatum. I think AS is correct in this is all about baby steps. One step forawd and two back only with you it appears to be two steps forward and one back.

I'd certainly keep doing what you are doing. It certainly seems to be working.

of course you could be right, but my formerly-a-WW-gut says no... My H and I did these kinds of things together while I was unfaithful... We regularly did karaoke, had dinner parties, even went away for the weekend... Went wine tasting, listened to local bands... It's the red flags that gnaw at my gut... I think the no kissing also says something...

[sandi2]

I think the no kissing also says something...

I'm glad to see Artista say this about the kissing. I had started a response about that very subject, and then deleted it.

IMHO, mouth on mouth, passionate kisses.......or the lack of them, tell the real story about a woman's current feelings for that man. Some W's have sex, but don't really engage in kissing. When that happens, something is not right. She is either just wanting to hurry and get through the sex act b/c she's not into it (for various reasons); or she is holding some anger against him; or she has another guy in her head.

My question to Jim, is who initiated? If you did, why........since you were planning the talk? Was it a test?

If you have the talk, and if she says she is committed, I think you need to bring up the subject of her wedding ring. And, don't jump in about you losing your ring. This is about her commitment and why she's not wearing her ring.

[artista]

If you have the talk, and if she says she is committed, I think you need to bring up the subject of her wedding ring. And, don't jump in about you losing your ring. This is about her commitment and why she's not wearing her ring.

this is one of the red flags that gnaws at me... during all of my false starts with H, i did not wear my wedding ring... it was not until i fully committed... and my H does not wear his ring... he stopped long before my unfaithfulness... the reason he stopped is that it no longer fit him... that did not bother me, and i did not require him to replace it...

but if you believe you should not require her to wear hers because you lost yours, then why haven't you replaced it? you can get a simple band for 80 bucks or less--although i do not believe money is the reason... i don't understand why you have not taken that reason/excuse out of the mix...

[hoosjim]

IMHO, mouth on mouth, passionate kisses.......or the lack of them, tell the real story about a woman's current feelings for that man. Some W's have sex, but don't really engage in kissing. When that happens, something is not right. She is either just wanting to hurry and get through the sex act b/c she's not into it (for various reasons); or she is holding some anger against him; or she has another guy in her head.

I generally agree with you and Artista, here. While the temptation is to look at things and say "oh, look how we've gotten closer" or "look how much more comfortable she is WRT certain things with me", the bottom line is that she is not focused on pursuing/fostering a romantic relationship with me. I cant think of any other reason why, in that circumstance at that level of intimacy, a woman wouldn't be kissing the man.

Yes we've gotten closer, but it is all friendship stuff. Headed, at best, towards perhaps a "friends with benefits" type thing if she decides at some point she needs a man for her own sexual fulfillment, but no real romance.

My question to Jim, is who initiated? If you did, why........since you were planning the talk? Was it a test?

Missed this first time around. Can't say that anyone really initiated it. Our conversation sort of wound round and round into many things, as it usually does, and towards the end of the evening at the pub it had turned to sex and sexuality. Not sure really how. It was not, however, like one of us just up and said during a moment of silence "Hey! Lets talk about sex!" The talk just sort of gradually moved that way, I think after having talked to and about one of the other couples there who were not married but were thinking of it. At some point the subject of pleasuring oneself came up--I think she made some joke about the movie "Wonder Woman" where the main character makes a crack about men not being necessary to achieve sexual gratification. At any rate, she asked why men seemed so hung up on porn and strip clubs and pleasuring themselves in the absence of a partner and whether or not a man would ever make a crack like that-- like "I don't need a woman I can take care of myself." At some point she talked about having become very cognizant of the, umm... configuration, I guess you would say, of her own anatomy. Now, all of this convo was happening as we were closing down and driving home and getting back into the house and then into bed, and it was becoming pretty... personal as we continued to talk while we lay with my arms around her. At some point, she fessed up to "Taking care of herself", and started talking about her "anatomical discoveries" and then said something to the effect of she thought it would be hot to have me watch. (I forget the exact words, I was pretty spooled up by this point.)

So not sure I would say either of us really "initiated".

(And hope I didn't get too R-rated for the board, here...)

[doodler]

Jim,

If Bones used his tricorder to analyze your marriage, what do you think Bones would say when the analysis was complete?

[hoosjim]

Oh goody, I'm going to get my chance tonight!

Call her as I was leaving work as I usually do to let her know I was on my way home: " what are things looking like over your way?" Her: " oh probably 6:30 or 6:45" (which is late for her, she's supposed to leave at 5:30, and offered no explanation this time, so I asked: " extra work to do, or are you guys staying to have a glass of wine?" ( what she does from time to time usually with the other girls in her office, but they have the wine in the office of one of the doctors there, who is married. And ask her in the past what his wife thinks about this, but, she is friends with the wife, and seems to think there is no problem with her husband hanging out after hours and drinking wine with several other girls most of whom are single. But, whatever. She has been telling me ahead of time recently when she is going to do this, but didn't today, until I asked. But then she said 6:30 or 6:45 she be leaving. It's now what 7:45? So, she was sort of hesitant in telling me to begin with, and it sounded in her voice, and now she's even an hour past that time. She did just send me a text, two words: "you okay."

I didn't respond, but no, I'm not fuching ok.

[Joe2017]

This is going to keep happening, sadly. Might be a great time to go out and do something with YOUR friends!