Hoosjim's 9th: WW, A ended(?); "All-in" or not?

[Coconut]

If you ask her to put on her wedding ring, and she does, will that signal to you that she has committed?

Or will you just wonder if she only put it on because you asked her to and leave you still wondering?

[AnotherStander]

Jim, you strike me as an extremely analytical person, which is fantastic, but may be working against you here. We've all been telling you for the last 10 pages or so that your W is NOT invested in your M. You seem to be trying to explain all these reasons why that may or may not be the case, but brother it's simple, she's NOT. So what are YOU going to do about YOU. That is the question for you to ponder. You can't make her want to work on things, but you CAN make yourself irresistible to the point that she fears losing you. So put your analytical skills to work figuring out what that looks like, how you can get there.

but I also am saying that I have a hard time seeing that point or how we get there based on where we are currently" [which is that even kisses are really awkward and weird and that right now the type of romantic intimacy envisioned for intimate couples "ain't gonna happen" for us] As an aside, this "ain't gonna happen" (whether qualified time-wise or not, now or in the future) is causing me to increasingly do a slow burn. Really? Really?!? She knows i heard her and Om discussing, in pretty graphic detail, EXACTLY what they were going to do to each other sexually if they ever got around to it.. and she was clearly "willing" or close to it... and now she's going to tell ME "well, I'll stay here and live with you and be your wife in name but we wont be doing that." REALLY?!?!?!?

GOOD Jim! You should be VERY angry about that, and fed up with the bullcrap. What kind of marriage is that? "We'll stay married but forget about ever having sex with me, and I don't think I even want to kiss you. Oh but by the way, I totally fantasize about sex with other men." Instead of trying to break this down 10 different ways, I want you to visualize two signs in your head. "DEAL" or "NO DEAL". Now tell me, what should your response be to the above scenario. Don't tell me about your past sexual disfunction, or how bad you -think- she wants to work on things or whatever. DEAL or NO DEAL. I hope to hell you say NO DEAL. That's it, it really is as simple as that. NO DEAL. What does that mean? Get out. Get a life. DB. Leave her alone to sort out what she wants while you go out and be awesome.

Personally I think you should sit down with her, tell her that you've thought about her comments that sex is never going to happen, that you're starting to realize that you've done all the work on recon while she's been a less than willing participant and you're done with it all. No deal. You're going to discontinue the MC and think about where YOU want to go from here and you suggest she do the same. Then DB your heart out.

[hoosjim]

If you ask her to put on her wedding ring, and she does, will that signal to you that she has committed?

Or will you just wonder if she only put it on because you asked her to and leave you still wondering?

That's an excellent question, and point. Although I had not necessarily intended to ask her to put it on. Was more interested in WON it would be productive to bring it up as a discussion point, perhaps in MC session. Im just wondering what her thinking on it is, if she is thinking about it at all, at the present time.

To answer your question, yes, I absolutely would wonder.

[Verum]

Your sitch is similar to mine after my W returned. She made what seemed to me only lukewarm efforts because she was not fully invested. I think you got good advice from AS above. In your current situation, you're only going to be frustrated and display all the wrong behaviors trying to convince your W to commit more fully to the marriage.

[artista]

What I am wondering is if I should sit her down, after Christmas or even maybe before (do I want to go through a sham holiday where we pretend all is well(?)) and say something similar to what LH19 suggests?:

"honey I love you and I adore you and I know I have neglected you in the past. I can not continue to live in a marriage with no intimacy. I think you are beautiful and sexy and I can't continue to live in the same house as you without being able to kiss, touch and ML to you"

Because I think that captures my sentiment pretty well. I dont think I can keep living that way... at least not without some hope or some indication or some willingness on her part that things at the very least might change in the future. Or that she is committed to giving working towards that her best shot.

i think this is a good idea... it finally addresses what was missing from the beginning of your attempt at reconciling...

but i don't think you should say, "at least not without some hope or some indication or some willingness on her part that things at the very least might change in the future," because that is a loop-hole she will cling to... you as a lawyer say nothing is definitive... that's not true... people like to use words such as might, may, maybe, perhaps, try, at the very least, hope, etc., so they cannot be held accountable for not following through...

but we can make commitments and keep them... and we do when we really want to... don't give her loop holes... don't give her wiggle room... when i approached my husband about reconciliation, he allowed me no more wiggle room like he had during our false starts... he finally said, "this is what i need, and anything short of that, i am not interested," and i immediately began doing what i needed to do to save our M... and still it took time for him to really buy in to the reconciliation...

artista

[LH19]

[quote=hoosjim]

What I am wondering is if I should sit her down, after Christmas or even maybe before (do I want to go through a sham holiday where we pretend all is well(?)) and say something similar to what LH19 suggests?:

"honey I love you and I adore you and I know I have neglected you in the past. I can not continue to live in a marriage with no intimacy. I think you are beautiful and sexy and I can't continue to live in the same house as you without being able to kiss, touch and ML to you"artista

HJ,
You are leaving out the most important part. Communicating confidently that this is non-negotiable.

Not um a kinda sort of don't think I can live this way. Come on man!

[Ginger1]

The thing is, Jim, you have to follow through. Not rationalize her answer and say never mind.

[hoosjim]

Well, my overall track record here is not good, but the last time there was what I will call a "fulcrum moment" I thought I generally did pretty well... it was pretty much the most desperately she has pursued me since this all began. My follow up was not quite as firm as it could have been, mostly from not having thought things through fully and having a plan for various eventualities, but I've learned from my mistakes.

Plus, I'm just a hell of a lot more level-headed and grounded in general than I was when this all started.

Best pieces of advice I think ive seen here today are the ones telling me to recommit to "doing me" instead of just "doing the MR". I have let that slip a bit, though my shoulder injury has played almost as big a part as has the attention I've been giving to W and the MR.

Had an amazingly good session with the MC/IC today. I'll detail later as im kinda busy right now but... she definitely agrees on some of the opinions offered up here, and some of her stuff could be straight out of the DB handbook. At any rate, she's a real sweetheart... made me feel a lot better about just stuff in general-- not just the MR-- when I had been despairing a little. (You guys help me a lot too, though. ) Sometimes it definitely helps to have a real, tangible person to talk to, though.

[hoosjim]

So, nutshell brief from my IC yesterday (with our MC who also doubles as my IC. And as a sex therapist Though we're not using her for that just yet )

--MC doesn't think i should throw in the towell just yet.
--Sez W needs to have "given up" the A/OM completely before she can make much progress on the MR. She can still be "mourning" the A a bit (though she'll make more progress once she's past that.
--MC thinks W has given up the A, but no way to be sure. Still wants to get W in IC with her to work some of that out.Says is good sign that W felt bad and still feels bad about hurting me in particular.
--MC says both spouses need to be committed to doing the work to save the the MR. Says W shows signs of this, but other things she says raise some doubt (though she was less discouraged by some of things my W said than was I).
--MC said if we want to have any hope of it working out, we absolutely need to come in more than once every 6 weeks. Ideally every other week at a minimum. It's the infrequency of our visits that, in her opinion, have somewhat retarded our progress (especially given that W and I both agree we feel better and more energized and hopeful right after a session) and also make it harder for her to get a good read on exactly "where" my W is in terms of A recovery and commitment to the process.
--She is going to try very hard to get us both to commit to IC interspersed with MC. Says IC will be of particular importance to W.
--Says it is absolutely acceptable for me to tell W I need to know she is committed to not just "working towards saving the MR" but also to "working towards a fully intimate MR".
--Preached the gospel on pursuit and distance, even on the micro level-- alot of kino-type stuff, here: Be cognizant of her mood, initiate light touch at light, happy moments like when laughing, but quickly withdraw. Be charming and if you see her smile or giving you a look, DON'T follow up but pull back some or leave her for a while. "Better to draw her to you than to demand her attention" is one way she put it.
--Said if there was something I suspected, like jewelry from OM, i should absolutely bring it up. Gave me some guidance on how to broach that.
--i am outgoing, a talker, and someone who readily shares my feelings about things and who processes stuff better by talking it out. W is just the opposite (upbringing)-- internalizes alot of stuff, not so eager to talk it out. MC urged me when talking with her, to work harder on listening, validating, coaxing her to share her feelings some, rather than doing all the talking myself.
--She suggested bringing up the wedding ring issue in session... in the context of getting new ones... Asking W "What would it look like for you for us to go get a new set of rings?" which could broach discussion on why she is not currently wearing hers.
--Be careful about trying to direct, change, or control her... she has to choose on her own for this to work.
--She was frank about prospects: Most MC's have "losing records", and we are plagued with both a long history of neglect as well as an A... but she has seen couples more beleaguered than us make it.

Theres more I prolly forgot.




--Also told me to keep taking care of self and maintain a PMA... get out on my own if i needed to. Oh, and try to "Be a little mysterious"... which is pretty much verbatim what my DB coach has told me a couple of times.

[hoosjim]

Christmas. Ugh.

Being in limbo a bit means i don't know how to handle Christmas gifts.

The me I am now, if i was in a fully functioning MR with this woman, would want to get her something really nice, really special, a pretty piece of jewelry or expensive coat or the like. I've never really bought her a nice, NICE piece of jewelry.

We'd gotten to the point the last few years where we would each say "OOh, i like that" and usually end up buying it for our respective selves and then telling the other they could just wrap it up for the one or the other for Christmas.

And my W has been bummed out around holidays for many, many years now... would like in general and not just in terms of buying her a nice gift to make it a good, happy time, especially with S19 coming home from college.

If she were in the throws of an A, obviously i wouldn't want to participate in family gatherings like holidays pretending all was cool, but... Things are better now and there's no hard evidence implicating W in any kind of A (though her dispostions, as many her correctly note, is not completely "ideal."

Really don't want to do nothing, or play it down, if she is thinking things are going better than i seem to realize they are. Apparently W's bff, at our anniversary back in September, after she and I had talked about whether or not and how we were going to recognized it, said something to the effect of "well, at the stage you all are at right now, he should have something planned" (Weird coming from her, since she was effectively working against my MR for months.) At any rate, Christmas has always been important to me, and I am getting into the spirit, putting up house lights, repairing the broken or out of shape fixtures and appliances and walls and such, anticipating family visiting. It's gonna bum me out to give her the cold shoulder in the midst of all that.

Last few days, after the kiss incident and our MC session, she has been happier. Touching me, leaning in to me some even in public or at parties (her office party was last night), being warmer. But still spells of quiet moodiness. She's definitely better/happier when we are occupied and doing things.

Just not sure how to approach/handle the gift angle. Already know she's getting me a nice pair of leather boots I'd had my eyes on (when we were out at dinner the other night, we walked past the shop and I said "I think i'm gonna go in and buy those boots") and she said "don't do that dummy, it's christmas, santa is coming...