WW ended EA 4 mos ago; trying to restore intimacy

[sandi2]

Why don't you just do what you would normally do

That was a clear invitation from her. Don't apologize for kissing her.

[hoosjim]

Rebellion. Fantasy. These are two of the big hurdles i am facing here.

We talked today. Her visit to Store X (next door to OM's hangout bar where she had meetups with him on a handful of occasions, at least, that I know of), AFTER i asked her "Is that somewhere you really want to be, and to be putting yourself in that situation, especially since you know he often hangs out there on Friday afternoons" was, on some level, apparently, an act of rebellion. That's not what she would consider it, perhaps, but it sure was the way she explained it (and remember that i am very bad about remembering exact words): "I want to be able to go where I want to go, without worrying about this or that. I wasn't even thinking about that being his hangout when i first thought of going there, i just wanted to look at clothes. After you brought that up then i definitely wanted to go there just to prove that i could do it..." (I later thought i should have reminded her about the last, at least that i know of, FTF meet she ever had with OM where she said she left the house not even intending to see him and she's not even really sure how or why she did it-- which MC seemed to grant can happen in these addicitive type affairs-- but i didn't at the time.

She also said she didn't think i was out of line or obnoxious on Friday, though i still think i overdid it a little bit, AND... Regarding the kiss:

That was a clear invitation from her. Don't apologize for kissing her.

It was actually NOT a clear invitation from her... at least not probably in the sense you were thinking. She was not wanting to be kissed, but, rather, was wanting to see if I would kiss her. Basically seeing if i really wanted to kiss her. She was also, apparently, hoping to find out if she would "feel that spark" or "like she wanted more", but she didn't get it. She still wants that fantasy feeling to drop out of thin air... like it does in all of the Hallmark channel christmas movies that she has been glued to for the past few days and is at every recent christmas i can remember (probably why holidays are so disappointing to her... I mean what can match up to THAT.) She also had been a rabid, and I mean RABID consumer of romance novels leading up to the A with OM, so she has a good, solid, understanding of the fantasy life she thinks she can have.

She says she still thinks most everything is better between us than ever-- we talk and laugh more than we ever have, we have fun when we go out, and our parenting is on the same page. But... no "spark". She says she still gets that regret which she's always had (and which she has in fact told mme about in the past even as far back as when we were dating) that she feels like she wanted to be a free spirit and just get on a bus and head west or to joion the peace corps or something but she never did, mostly because of what otherr people expected of her (which is a little of what was driving her Friday, apparently when she went to store x), and that she still regrets that. And now if she goes off on her own she will be being selfish and hurt everybody else. Also that she wants to go off and try all these new things, skydiving, etc., but "doesn't see herself doing them with me or really with anyone exxcept maybe her girlfriends" and that she's sorry but that "she knows that hurts me to hear". None of that is, of course, really news at this point, and it is supposedly what we are supposed to be working on to "get back"... but it seems more and more as if i am competing with both the lingering rebellion as well as an unfulfillable fantasy.

Finally, i am coming to the conclusion that I am NOT nor have i ever been competing with OM for my wife. To the extet I am competing at all, I am competing with W's bff. It was bff who first got her going out on these "single girls nights" (rather than trying to help repair our broken marriage), who encouraged her in her A with OM, and who continues to encourage her to "just choose 'you'" and "you HAVE to be selfish sometimes" and "Oh look at me how happy i am with my AP" (and it is a very seductive call, as bff leads a life fully half filled with leisure as she and her STBXH sold their first business for a boatload and now she just consults part time, and spends the rest of her time jetting to florida, or new orleans, or new york, soon Europe apparently, rendezvousing with her AP and "having lots of sex."

And, finally, another thing... and kind of disturbing/sad. The un-returned kiss was a revelation to me. I find that there are few things as unattractive as a woman who doesn't respond to you. I was not so much "hurt" by the lack of response as I was left feeling very empty. It DID sound like an invitation to kiss her and initiate something... but the reasons for the invitation were selfish on her part, imo, almost like a temp check though not exactly.

Idunno. If she is committed to this she needs to be committed. Someone told me once that if you go into something expecting it to suck or expecting to be unhappy, chances are it is going to suck or you are going to be unhappy. If you commit to BEING happy and commit to making something work and come out GOOD, you vastly increase your chances of that happening. Right now, it seems, she expects no spark between us, and she expects her holiday to suck, so both those things are likely to come true.


Oh, and she actually copped to the flowers at her office that she took the picture of as her FB front page being from OM, saying "well you knew he sent me flowers" (which i actually did not, she never having told me that i can recall) but denied that he gave her any other gifts... which i have a very very hard time believing. I'd have found it much more believable had she said "yes he did but i pitched them."


And or those of you new to this rodeo, the flowers and gifts and such with Om were not recent... they were from this past spring.

AFAIK she is still "Non contacting" the Om... but i am starting to wonder if she is thinking of this as "doing time" for a year, after which she will be able to say "I tried" and then end the MR.

Now who's thinking negative. I know the man upstairs has my back, but I can't say for sure where that path leads.

And one final note... really scatterbrained today. Lest you think it's ALL negative, we did have a fairly nice, light, fUn day, post-talk Christmas shopping for the kids, and stopping for coffee once and lunch and a drink later. She also said, during our talk, thst she agreed that things always seemed to be somewhat better right after a MC session, and she agreed to go back this week and next. Just wish she would do the IC, too. Too busy watching hallmark (where she actually is right now...)

[Zues126]

She says she still thinks most everything is better between us than ever-- we talk and laugh more than we ever have, we have fun when we go out, and our parenting is on the same page. But... no "spark". She says she still gets that regret which she's always had (and which she has in fact told mme about in the past even as far back as when we were dating) that she feels like she wanted to be a free spirit and just get on a bus and head west or to joion the peace corps or something but she never did, mostly because of what otherr people expected of her (which is a little of what was driving her Friday, apparently when she went to store x), and that she still regrets that. And now if she goes off on her own she will be being selfish and hurt everybody else. Also that she wants to go off and try all these new things, skydiving, etc., but "doesn't see herself doing them with me or really with anyone exxcept maybe her girlfriends" and that she's sorry but that "she knows that hurts me to hear". None of that is, of course, really news at this point, and it is supposedly what we are supposed to be working on to "get back"... but it seems more and more as if i am competing with both the lingering rebellion as well as an unfulfillable fantasy.

I could've possibly been a professional pool player that won international competitions, traveled the world competing, and spent my time walking beaches across the globe to relax between matches and working on my game with other champions. Instead I get up early to drop my kids off at school and go to work. When I play competitions I inevitably get eliminated by players that went down the road I didn't and play full time. But instead I have three wonderful children, a rewarding career, and still find my way to some thrilling victories on occasion.

In life you make choices. You get ice cream for desert or you get cookies. You get to order the steak or the shrimp. 'Wanting it all' in life is like going to an infinitely large buffet and wanting to try 'a little of everything'.

I'm not sure if human nature has always to perpetually covet what we don't have, but I feel that the internet age and advent of social media has poured gas on the fire. Keeping up with the Jones's is harder and harder because now we can see the entire buffet, and we know how much we are 'missing out' on. It's easy to get panicked.
Just like if there were $100 bills all over the streets there would be a mob trying to pick them all up, one can find themselves terrified that there is all of this happiness out there and everyone else is getting it, but (gasp) it's slipping through our fingers because all we have is what we have.

This grosses me out. It is all viewed through a lens that the most important thing in the world is our personal gratification. The things we covet don't bring happiness, they bring pleasure. Pleasure is obtaining something external that makes us feel good temporarily. Happiness comes from appreciating what we have, the most powerful of which are internal and involve sacrifice. When we think we're not happy enough we become less appreciative, and the only way we know to change how we feel is to chase more pleasure.

But pleasure involves a sacrifice too, and it involves us sacrificing the things that would actually bring us happiness. And so the downward spiral begins, empty lives filling up on garbage.

I'm almost to my point.

My friend, who also sacrificed his pool career to start a family, is still married. When he lost out of a competition he'd get very frustrated because he felt that his family was the reason he lost. Which in a way is true. But he would become very resentful of his wife and his family because of this. I guess he didn't feel he was getting as much pleasure from being a husband or a dad as he would if he were a champion pool player, and he felt like his wife should understand the sacrifice he made and somehow show the appreciation by making the family man role more rewarding for him. This is a normal need of course, feeling appreciated, and his wife should certainly understand this and do her best to show her appreciation as much as possible. The problem was his expectations and how it turned into resentment.

It reached a point to where his wife basically said 'look, you can stay or you can go, but you can't stay and then perpetually gripe about being here'. This was a wake up call to him, and he realized that he needed to focus on appreciating what he had, and not being angry about what he didn't. He has since quit playing pool because it was a trigger for him and his life has been easier since he did. He's still new in this struggle. It's a battle. But I've talked to him about this for endless hours and he agrees it's a matter of appreciation not acquisition.

OK, so now to your wife. She seems very similar to my friend. She resents reality because it doesn't measure up to what she wants, a little of everything. Her friends and every pillow embroidered saying in the world all assures her that she is a special princess that deserves a bit of everything. And she isn't 'happy' so clearly that proves they are all right.

Personally I don't think she'll ever be happy unless she picks one meal and enjoys it rather than staring at everyone else on the buffet. But I don't control her, and neither do you. She's on her journey, and you can't speed it up or lead her one way or another.

What you get to do is establish boundaries. What is a deal breaker for you? I get it, if she's with OM that's clear. But what if the marriage remains sexless? I get being patient during a difficult marital crisis, but at what point does it become a whiny child throwing a tantrum and punishing you by withholding affection because she is resentful your existence is preventing her from that fling with the waiter in Paris? I'm not suggesting you tell her to put out or get out.

But it might help to have a game plan for yourself as to what you're willing to take. And at some point you may need to express that to her. Not as an ultimatum, but more as a boundary. The same way the "I am not going to remain in a open marriage" is bandied about, there may be a time when you say "I'm not going to be in a relationship where affection is being withheld". IF that is a deal breaker. And if that time comes you'd better be ready to detach and move forward on your own, because you can't control her and there is a good chance you'll have to go your own way.

Now- here's the hard part. If it's NOT a deal breaker then you don't get to make that statement. In fact, you're essentially making the statement that "I am committed to you regardless of whether you withhold sex and affection because you resent me for your lack of fulfillment".

AND, if that is your stance, then YOU have to let go of YOUR expectations, and instead of YOU focusing on what YOU don't have (a sexually fulfilling relationship with an appreciative loving spouse) YOU have to focus on what you DO have. And find fulfillment in what you've been given in your life.

If you can't find fulfillment in what you already have in your life, how do you expect her to find fulfillment in hers? Lead by example, and hope maybe someday she can follow.

Am I saying that no sex should be a deal breaker? Not necessarily. Personally I don't believe in deal breakers in a marriage but if someone wanted to make a case for it I think no sex would their best chance to make me wish I did. Of course it's too early for that right now.

What I'm really saying is 1) Be patient, today won't be what your relationship looks like in 3 months or 12 months, 2) Find joy in limbo, if you can't be appreciative of your life right as is you're just as far off track as she is and you need to be a leader, and 3) figure out what your boundaries are so you can protect yourself if she crosses them and you can stop mentally whining and let go of the expectations if she doesn't.

Easier said than done. I was in a sexless marriage for the last 3 years and while I was resolved to go to the grave a very frustrated but still married man, I was definitely resentful and allowed that to impact how I conducted myself as a husband. I wrote a thread about this (the card came), if this wasn't already an epic novel post I'd quote it for you, let me know if you haven't seen it. Point is I get that it is tough. It's so hard I don't know if I could do it even with the things I've learned in the last three years. Put me back in that M and I still might not be able to handle it. But I think that's the fight you have to fight.

It all stems from no expectations and appreciation. You wrote a lot about what you did wrong and what didn't go well and what's missing and her bad influences and what's not perfect and your doubts and fears and both of your challenges. You kind of glossed over the overall pleasant experiences you guys are having and what's going right. If you're 95% focused on what you don't have you're doing it wrong. And just like you get frustrated that she's so focused on the french waiter, she's probably frustrated that she's recommitted to the M, quit seeing OM, and is doing the best she feels she can and you are still hung up on that it's not perfect. Do your best HJ. It's hard. Keep posting.

[rexgm]

H,

I was wondering have you two read the book "after the affair"? I am listening to it and it is actually pretty interesting. It gives points of view for both parties, the one who committed the affair and the one hurt by it. It lets you know what to expect and how to deal with the feelings in a constructive way.

H,

Not sure if you saw this, but it actually answers a lot of questions you're asking it actually has a chapter on getting physical again and pretty much states from both parties that it's going to be awkward and that is normal.

[AnotherStander]

Jim, I sure do read a lot of mind-reading in your posts. This is one of the problems with snooping, it leads to a crap-ton of mind-reading to fill in the blanks. I personally would suggest you drop the snooping. You think she's having an affair and trying to find out? Well then just assume the worst and act accordingly. Let HER prove to you that she's not. Until then, live your life like she's still an active cheater.

And, finally, another thing... and kind of disturbing/sad. The un-returned kiss was a revelation to me. I find that there are few things as unattractive as a woman who doesn't respond to you. I was not so much "hurt" by the lack of response as I was left feeling very empty. It DID sound like an invitation to kiss her and initiate something... but the reasons for the invitation were selfish on her part, imo, almost like a temp check though not exactly.

The "revelation" to you should be this- she doesn't find you attractive right now. So what can you do about that? Get out. Get a life. Quit snooping (that is SO not attractive). Give her time and space. Detach. I think maybe you're trying too hard and she's pulling away (the ol' you pursue/she distances dynamic at work). Read TXHubby's thread again, try and model more of your activities after his. He made himself so damned attractive that his W begged him to take her back.

I'm always a little perplexed at sexless relationships. For me I've always made it clear to my romantic interests that sex is not optional with me. You want me then you will be having sex with me. You start playing games with sex then our relationship will come to an abrupt end. If you two are not having sex then I wouldn't even consider that piecing, or any kind of couples relationship really. I would go back to DB'ing and treat her like a cheating WAS. If she wants to reconcile then fine, she can show it in the bedroom. Until then she shouldn't bother you because you are too busy out there being awesome. You're not going to "nice" her back, so quit trying. Be mysterious, a little bad and naughty. Make her wonder what you're up to. Make her pursue you instead of vice versa.

[hoosjim]

Zeus, thanks. This is quite honestly one of the very best and most helpful and well-illustrated posts I have seen on one of my threads. The whole "quest for happiness" thing is, to all appearances, a HUGE deal for my W and I, for my part, certainly helped push her down that road by my role in making her very UN-happy for so many years. For whatever reason, however, that's where she is now and, as you said, until she decides to start being thankful, appreciative, and even happy for what she has, she is likely to continue to be a very unhappy person. Worth noting that her church attendance, where you will also hear that message preached from time to time, has gotten considerably more spotty of late, and she is visibly tense and ill at ease and short with everyone when she does go. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to write all of that.

I have not seen your "card game" thread but would love to read it and would be very thankful if you could provide a link or cut and paste the quote you wanted to add.

What you get to do is establish boundaries. What is a deal breaker for you? I get it, if she's with OM that's clear. But what if the marriage remains sexless? I get being patient during a difficult marital crisis, but at what point does it become a whiny child throwing a tantrum and punishing you by withholding affection because she is resentful your existence is preventing her from that fling with the waiter in Paris? I'm not suggesting you tell her to put out or get out.

This is a tricky angle and there are subtexts here that bear discussing. I am at a place now where I don't think I can in good conscience live in a sex-free marriage. I need that now... but that was not always the case. I was chronically poisoned due to a genetic condition and spent several years in declining health, one of the effects of which was suppression of the endocrine system and of, amongst other things, testosterone. I literally had nearly no to sex drive. In addition, even had the sex drive been there, pretty much every joint in my body felt like it had a red hot fork or icepick sticking in it 24/7. And that was even when I wasn't, as I did fairly regularly, contracting pneumonia or some other infectious illness. Sex was pretty far from the first thing on my mind in those days. The dynamic between W and I worsened to the point that, even when I finally began a return to health (a long and fairly miraculous story for another time), our relationship had become so damaged that we were kind of turned off by each other-- she was snarky and naggy (or at least so I thought) and verbally abusive to me and the kids at times, and I was cold and aloof and challenged or put down most every idea we had. By the time of BD last January, we really weren't even friends... let alone anything more intimate. We were definitely in what MWD would call a "sex starved marriage." We have not been intimate in probably 4 years or so at this point.

So, that's the status quo. It's not as simple as saying "she needs to be fulfilling my sexual needs or a I walk." We both bear a LOT of responsibility for getting to this point, and romantic and physical intimacy of any type is pretty far in the rearview mirror for us. She has even a more jaded view than I do (in terms of how often and how recently we have been intimate) and has still not (yet) relented in that view even as I know the truth to be otherwise. So, while NOW with a healthy glandular system pretty much restored I definitely WANT that relationship with my wife...It's not a simple matter to restore it. We both bear responsibility for where we are, but I definitely abandoned the masculine role of sexual pursuer and let that part of the relationship languish. And it has been a loooooong time.

What I'm really saying is 1) Be patient, today won't be what your relationship looks like in 3 months or 12 months, 2) Find joy in limbo, if you can't be appreciative of your life right as is you're just as far off track as she is and you need to be a leader, and 3) figure out what your boundaries are so you can protect yourself if she crosses them and you can stop mentally whining and let go of the expectations if she doesn't.

This is good advice, and I am giving it time. But it is hard. To kiss her like that, thinking it was invitation when in fact it was a test... hurts. Now, our MC has told us we are going to have to be deliberate, and kind of test the waters like that but... the way my W did it definitely left a bad taste in my mouth.

We've been having a lot of fun and nice times, its true, but the lack of any intimacy (and not just sex) is very hard to endure. And I am not sure that she gets to a point where she'll even have a chance of "feeling" that unless she gives up the fantasies and commits fully to making our MR a great one.

I honestly probably really effed up by not separating and/or giving her the boot or completely shutting her out until she absolutely came crawling back, completely humbled, like TxHubby did with his W. Mine did have what was a come to Jesus moment when she thought I was walking, but I think I let her back in to soon, committed to the MC with poor foundation, etc. and am now painted into a corner where I have to hope we can employ the "just do it" philosophy and regain that intimacy-- which is unlikely to happen with her current attitude. Can't exactly go dark and shut her off now without being a huge backtracking D-bag... because AFAIK and can prove she is not seeing OM and she IS going to MC. Even if I distance myself now from her, in house, she is going to wonder what's wrong, and I really have no basis other than "I'm not getting any"... but the course of action I committed to expressly included the possibility of "not getting any" for a while.

[hoosjim]

You think she's having an affair and trying to find out? Well then just assume the worst and act accordingly. Let HER prove to you that she's not. Until then, live your life like she's still an active cheater.

Stander, you always have some good insights and this is no different. However, I think your insights here may have been more timely 4 or so months ago.

You see, right now, I do not think she is having an affair. I think she is having difficulty getting over the affair she had previously, and that her bff is further complicating that recovery. I am not snooping on her, but have "spot checked" her a couple of times based largely on Sandi2s suggestions. Call it "intel gathering" or "research" as I think that that is more apt. My MC/IC didn't even have an issue with it, nor did my DB coach.

The conundrum I am in, and why your advice her might not be as timely as it could have been is this: As I posted a couple of threads back, I think, I have chosen my path, here. That path involves marriage counseling and an effort to rekindle an intimate relationship in my marriage that does not currently exist. I know opinions vary on the "possibility" of achieving this, but is certainly something that MWD has described in her books as being possible. Problem is, I may have jumped too soon. I had her on the ropes so to speak. Desperate because she saw the whole façade crumbling, me walking away and her "losing" the kids, or at least their respect. I could have walked off then and probably should have, and maybe then by this point she would have "fallen" for me again and we would be more actively and effectively piecing. That is not what happened, however. I took her back, she committed to ending things with OM (which she has apparently upheld), and we committed to working with the MC. She is still doing those things. Not sure I could jettison her now without looking like a two-faced jerk, undoing the good progress that we have made so far (we weren't even friends 6 or 7 months ago) and permanently poisoning the waters.

As to the sex-free marriage, well... I put us in that boat way more than she did (see above response to Zeus) and it has been a LONG time. The romance was long gone from our MR by the time OM came along, and W and I have not been intimate in fully four years or so. Maybe 5. It's been a loooong time. Insisting on sex "Right damned now" just doesn't make sense in the current state of affairs. Moving deliberately towards that is what, apparently, I am committed to now. Problem is I don't see that being successful as long as W is in fantasy land, and I have moved OUT of the realm of distancing/going-dark/after-the-last-resort-technique. Perhaps I should not have so moved but... the fact of the matter is that I did. Going back to that right now not really an option.

Do I have boundaries? Yes, one of which is that she can't see OM. Were that to happen, then, yes, of course I would drop the rope cut the cord and "go dark". Problem is, I would also file. With no going back. I have told her as much and I meant it. if om ever comes back in the picture we are through

So not sure how what you suggest could fit into my current sitch, at least in it's totality. I will certainly take to heart your suggestions to make myself "awesome" and irresistible, but "living my life like she is an active cheater probably doesn't make a lot of sense right here given what has gone before.

Would still love to see Sandi2s take on the most recent.

[TBSakaJ9]

HJ......I subscribe to a blog where I get weekly emails on male subjects. The one this week is on Is Your Wife Withholding Sex from You? Just thought I would share.

What options do you have in the prison of a sexless marriage?

Have you ever felt like your sex life has been stolen?

Do you believe that women are the gate keepers of your sexuality?

Are you concerned that your masculine sensuality will never be honestly expressed until you get the permission and approval from your partner?

Many men answer “yes” to those questions.

I used to believe the answers were “yes” too.

Now I know differently. And you can too.

The Sexual Prison is in Your Head

Many men feel imprisoned by society, their upbringing or even their marital vows.

Societal programming has brainwashed them into believing their masculine sensual and sexual nature is something they should be ashamed of.

They’ve been raised to be quietly embarrassed about their natural craving for intimate connection, sensual touch and sexual pleasure.

And they feel their marital vows have locked them into an inescapable, monogamous prison where they solemnly wait for the gatekeeper to give them the nod of permission.

But the truth is they are sitting in a cell with an unlocked door and no guard.

They can leave anytime they want…but they don’t.

The fear of walking out the door and simply being who they want to be is paralyzing.

It’s all in their head.

What if You Just Walked Out of the Prison Cell?

I had a client once who was determined to walk out of his unguarded cell of sexual shame.

He didn’t care what it took. He needed to shock himself into owning who he was and what he wanted.

I asked him, “What would be the most grandiose demonstration of your reclaimed freedom?”

He thought for a minute and said, “The most outrageous thing I can think of is if I told my mother that I love to eat p*ssy! That would prove I’m afraid of nothing anymore.”

“Really?” I said. “What’s the worst that could happen if you do that?”

And so it was decided.

He sat down one Saturday morning over coffee with his mom. He could smell bacon sizzling on the stove as he sat nervously at the 36-inch round Formica kitchen table he grew up with.

She said, “How have you been, dear?”

He said, “Great, mom! Hey, I’ve got to get something to get off my chest I’ve been too embarrassed to tell anyone. So I’m telling you.”

“What is it, honey?” she asked.

“Mom. I just love to eat p*ssy.”

Pause.

“That’s nice, dear. Do you want some breakfast?”

Yeah. It was that easy.

And his life started changing from that day on. True story.

What if You Just Lived a Life of Intimacy, Sensuality and Sexuality?

What if living an intimate, sensual and sexual life wasn’t a place to get to?

What if it was a place you must come from?

What if all you had to do every single day was the equivalent of telling your mom you love to eat p*ssy?

Living a life of intimacy, sensuality and sexuality requires you to come from those places. You must embrace the scary edge of what it means to show up in relationships as an intimate man.

You must be unashamed of expressing your sensual thoughts and feelings.

And you must unapologetically invite and initiate sensual play and sexual interactions.

The choice to do otherwise is like sitting in an unguarded, unlocked prison cell.

You can do anything you want and you can BE anyone you like. Nobody has a gun to your head.

Do they?

The Gun to Your Head

I know the feeling.

The fear of speaking our truth can feel like a virtual gun to the head.

We’re afraid of being rejected…again.

Being called a pervert.

Being mocked, scolded or belittled.

Being laughed at.

Being alone.

These fears are what keeps us sitting on the edge of our bunk inside the unguarded, unlocked cell.

We choose to play it safe and do nothing.

Actually, it’s not nothing.

We might whine, complain, argue, beg, debate, blame and negotiate for slivers of what we want.

We give absolute power to someone else to regulate our experience of intimacy, sensuality and sexuality.

And that’s a miserable life.

What Are My Options?

Your options are plenty…if you dare to exercise them.

The world is full of opportunities to play in the realm of intimacy, sensuality and sexuality.

I believe you must learn to play in all those realms with the world – without shame or apology.

You were not meant to place all of your eggs in one basket. It’s impossible for your partner to be the sole source of your intimate experiences.

She never signed up to be your prison guard or the keeper of your happiness and satisfaction.

She doesn’t want you to get those from her. She wants you to come to her with those already inside you.

Instead of pursuing intimate, sensual and sexual experiences you must learn to create them.

This means you must boldly create intimate, emotional and vulnerable conversations. Do this with your friends, your co-workers, your mother and your partner…whenever the mood strikes you. Push that scary edge. Treat intimacy just as you do the air you breathe. It’s not negotiable.

Playfully delve into the world of sensuality. Read, watch, listen and share with others what you’re thinking, what you like and what you desire. Learn to touch, hug, kiss, compliment and love others without fear or expectation. Practice receiving those with a gracious, open heart.

Shamelessly express your sexual nature. It’s normal and natural to be a sexual being. It’s food for your soul. Reset your mindset of scarcity, uncertainty and trepidation. Instead, offer, invite and initiate from a place of self-respect, self-love and outcome independence.

Intimacy, sensuality and sexuality are your gifts to offer the world…they are not a place you need to find or get to.

They are a place you must come from.

And to do that you must walk out of that prison cell under your own power – without asking for permission.

Will This Fix My Sexless Marriage?

Will pushing this scary edge fix your sexless marriage?

I don’t know. Maybe.

One thing I know for sure is that it will make you feel happier and more confident. Those two things should be your priority before trying to fix anything else. Becoming independent of any specific outcome is critical and you can’t do that if you’re not happy or confident.

Another thing I know for sure is doing more of the same won’t fix anything and it will only get worse.

Complaining won’t fix it.

Begging won’t fix it.

And negotiating won’t fix it.

Sometimes a sexless marriage is rejuvenated when you decide to walk out of your unguarded, unlocked prison cell and simply become an intimate, sensual and sexual person and partner.

You take responsibility for living a life of your choosing – taking back your power to experience one of the most amazing parts of being a human being.

You let go of controlling, threatening or manipulating your partner to make you happy. You just invite her to join you in the intimate, sensual and sexual life you are going to live – one way or another. (By the way, if the roles are reversed the same concepts apply)

No rules. No demands. No judgment.

Just a simple invitation.

[hoosjim]

Zeus--

I was kind of half-distracted an ran out of time, but I did pretty half-a$$ed job of fully saying how appreciative I am for your post. I ended up making yet another post where I pretty much gripe and moan about how difficult my own sitch is, but there is a lot more stuff in your post that is extremely helpful and offers me different takes on some things I have already considered, and some lifelines as well.

I will think hard over "what I can and cannot live with", as well as re-dedicating myself to being thankful and appreciative for what I do have, and how I can lead by example rather than trying to control, and find peace with various outcomes.

No woman has ever affected me the way this one has, and on the one hand my heart brakes for having let the relationship get so far down this road that it is on, but... I did. And it happened. I still have a whole, whole lot going for me, and a lot to offer. I'm a child of God, after all. And if he's on my side, what do I have to fear?

Thanks again, your post was a blessing... it has helped reinvigorate me.

[sandi2]

"I want to be able to go where I want to go, without worrying about this or that. I wasn't even thinking about that being his hangout when i first thought of going there, i just wanted to look at clothes. After you brought that up then i definitely wanted to go there just to prove that i could do it..."

First all, if she had repented for her waywardness, she should not be acting out on rebellious feelings. Not if she genuinely repeated. But I have to tell you, Jim, that above quote from her is nothing but a cop out. A WW cop out! I mean, the audacity! I'm afraid I would have had to tell Miss High & Mighty that she is suppose to be earning your trust. You did explain how that works with transparency, etc. Right? It's not necessary to remind her of previous activities with OM, but apparently, her "commitment" to work to save her M has slipped her mind.

It was actually NOT a clear invitation from her... at least not probably in the sense you were thinking. She was not wanting to be kissed, but, rather, was wanting to see if I would kiss her.

Sorry, I was thinking like a woman. And, yes, I knew exactly what she had on her mind, and that was to see if (1) you would kiss her, and (2) if she felt sparks. Of course, she wouldn't feel anything b/c she still has OM in her head.....and she wants to act as if she's single. She can feel sparks for her H when she's wayward.

She also had been a rabid, and I mean RABID consumer of romance novels leading up to the A with OM, so she has a good, solid, understanding of the fantasy life she thinks she can have.

Yeah, I am very familiar with those actions (romantic movies, novels, etc.). If her head is still stuck in fantasy land, I'm afraid you won't be having much intimacy soon. Unfortunately, the holidays are over-romantized, and that doesn't help her fantasy.

She says she still thinks most everything is better between us than ever

Sure......as friends. And that would be okay (since you are working toward piecing) if she would follow up with the MC/IC. But she's trying to make it your fault that she doesn't feel a thrill.....without her putting any effort into it. I understand her! I really do! But her thinking is wrong.

And now if she goes off on her own she will be being selfish and hurt everybody else

WW script.

Also that she wants to go off and try all these new things, skydiving, etc., but "doesn't see herself doing them with me or really with anyone exxcept maybe her girlfriends" and that she's sorry but that "she knows that hurts me to hear".

She has said this stuff in the past. If you reversed it and said you couldn't see yourself with her.......it would hurt like heck! She would probably be pi$$ed about it. Sorry, but she sounds as if she's really backslid.

And, finally, another thing... and kind of disturbing/sad. The un-returned kiss was a revelation to me. I find that there are few things as unattractive as a woman who doesn't respond to you. I was not so much "hurt" by the lack of response as I was left feeling very empty. It DID sound like an invitation to kiss her and initiate something... but the reasons for the invitation were selfish on her part, imo, almost like a temp check though not exactly.

I have to agree. Very self-centered, indeed.

Idunno. If she is committed to this she needs to be committed. Someone told me once that if you go into something expecting it to suck or expecting to be unhappy, chances are it is going to suck or you are going to be unhappy. If you commit to BEING happy and commit to making something work and come out GOOD, you vastly increase your chances of that happening. Right now, it seems, she expects no spark between us, and she expects her holiday to suck, so both those things are likely to come true.

Exactly!

Oh, and she actually copped to the flowers at her office that she took the picture of as her FB front page being from OM, saying "well you knew he sent me flowers"

Well, isn't that sweet..........and she decided to preserve it on FB. . That's very telling, Jim.

AFAIK she is still "Non contacting" the Om... but i am starting to wonder if she is thinking of this as "doing time" for a year, after which she will be able to say "I tried" and then end the MR.

No, I think she's making some type of contact. Burner phone, BFF as the go-between, something. She's not going to wait a year. She can already say she's tried.......even went to MC with you......but nothing worked. It's script.

I will be tickled pink if I'm wrong.......but I think she is trying to get through Christmas, and then she'll BD you.....or just replay her old actions (benefit from the M, but live as a single). Either way, she seems to be setting the tone.