WW ended EA 4 mos ago; trying to restore intimacy

[TBSakaJ9]

Jim....IMO you have every right to know where those items came from and your W should be very willing to tell you if she is committed to your MR. Personally if I were in your shoes it would bother me if she was wearing things that OM gave her. I would tell my W that anything associated with OM needs to go into the dumpster.

[doodler]

hoosjim,

My opinion is that there's a lot of cognitive dissonance (aka fog) on your part. I may well be wrong.

A quote from my MC/IC that I've quoted many times because I think it's a good quote to quote on those occasions that I need a good quote: Look, this is how marriage works, if one spouse doesn't like the other spouse's friend, then the friend has to go.

That means the spouse puts the marriage before the friend which is how it should be. I don't think your wife would do that.

[hoosjim]

Look, this is how marriage works, if one spouse doesn't like the other spouse's friend, then the friend has to go.

That means the spouse puts the marriage before the friend which is how it should be. I don't think your wife would do that.

In general, I am in full agreement. However, I also see the merit with what Sandi2 has said to me relatively recently which is that laying down the law WRT to her bff at this point is only liable to push her away and back into rebellion... that at some point as part of her "recovery" she needs to understand that relationship with bff is not a healthy one and that bff's lifestyle is not consistent with W and I having a happy, committed, and complete marriage. Sometimes I think she is close to "getting there", as when she pretty much cut herself off from bff for nearly a month, or when she said she was "reevaluating all her friendships, including with bff". Then, other times, as in counselling (although this was VERY early on in counselling, when she was still actively seeing OM) when MC suggested that friendship needed to end and W later said to me "well, THAT aint going to happen." BFF is pretty much her lifelong best friend... not that I think for one moment that that should take precedence over our M or even be allowed to impinge on our M but... it's a relationship she is not going to give up easily, and I am not sure it is in my or our marriage's best interests at this particular point to be pushing her on that issue myself. Maybe if she were to get into IC (as she has said repeatedly she needs to and will but to date has not) the IC/MC can promote that idea a bit more.

You know what would really make me feel better/safer right now would be if we were to start wearing our rings again. Of course, I effed that up by losing mine. Not to mention which I had been wanting to save that for renewing our vows, etc., if we ever reached that point.

[doodler]

hoosjim,

I'd take Sandi's advice over doodler's every time. By the way, I'd be happy to loan you my ring.

[Ginger1]

I am going to start with asking you this:

Do you want her to wear the rings to symbolize her commitment to you or to ward off men when she goes out with her BFF?

If your gut is telling you something, listen to it. I have this awful habit myself of my gut so loudly telling me something, yet I write myself off as "I must be crazy/paranoid" because I am scared of finding out a truth or having an unwanted consequence of addressing it (I.e, she choses BFF over you)

But I will tell you this much. My gut has been right EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. If something is making you uncomfortable, there is a reason.

[Maika]

Oh man! That jewelery needs to go pronto! Anything that she ever got from OM or is a reminder of OM has to go. I don't think you're paranoid or controlling if you talk about that upfront. You're in your full right to have that as part of your recon process.

Also, the gut. As Ginger said, if it smells like smoke, there is definitely a raging fire going. Don't brush it aside. I would address it head on.

I get that she's evaluating her relationship with her bff and you know best how to handle it. But, the material stuff from OM and your gut, you have to handle that $hit.

[joejoe1]

IMO, it seems to me you are making every provision not to make your W upset. But on her end she's is not as committed at not making you upset. Why are you afraid to bring something up to the woman that suppose to be your BF, that something she has done is bothering you.

You'll should be able to tell each other everything and if you are holding back how you feel, its not healthy for you or the M.

You seem to be avoidant of anything that might make your W upset or mad.

Her BFF should be taking a backseat to her M. I understand not trying to tear that relationship up. But if you a uncomfortable with her relationship with the BFF, W should put that relationship on a hold for a while.

She should be fighting for you to be in her life and it seems like it's the other way around at the moment.

I have also noticed, you posted about how the jewelry made you feel, then when you got advice on here, you defended her wearing because you didn't have evidence of where see got it from. In your heart you know where she got it from. Did you buy it for her? If not, I don't see why asking where they came from would be a big deal.

I hope what I posted didnt sound to harsh.

[sandi2]

Here's the thing to remember about this journey. There is usually some adjustments to make before you arrive at your destination.

I don't remember the jewelry. I apologize if you mentioned it. My memory isn't as good as it once was. Let me clearly state that when a WW has ended contact with her OM, nothing can be saved that had any attachment to the A/OM. That's why all old texts, FB, photos, etc., must be deleted. No keepsakes from their hangout, date, or whatever, can be saved. And most assuredly, no gifts from OM. Wearing his jewelry is her message to the OM that she has turned on the green light.

I understand being cautious not to appear paranoid, but you really should have asked about the jewelry. You are her H, and if she's clinging to anything sentimental from OM.....it has to go. It makes no difference how much she likes it, how expensive it may be, or how nice it looks on her. It will forever be an attachment to OM. She should place your concerns and need to feel safe in the MR before her friends, things, and certainly anything connected to OM.

Put this jewelry with her new, sexy clothes; going out again with BFF; slacking off the MC homework and not following through with IC; and not wearing her wedding ring after reconciling.........adds up to reasonable doubt. I understand how her momentum could lower about the MC. I don't fault her for the new clothes. Not wearing her wedding ring and then putting on this questionable jewelry.........worries me.

I don't tell many people to do this, but I think you need to either put the surveillance up, or talk to her about your feelings. If she agreed to transparency, then she doesn't have anything to hide.........right? But your gut continues to protest. If the two of you have agreed to work on the MR.....then you are allowed to talk about how all of these actions cause you concern. After all, she cheated on you! IMHO, she is beginning to fall away, and she may think she has you in a place of trust for a while linger. Perhaps it's the effect from visiting with BFF, IDK. She has not worked enough to earn your complete trust, yet. But that's just my thinking.

Check it out, and if nothing shows up.....take the surveillance down again. It's spot checking, or as some call it.....gathering intell. It may relieve your mind.......or you may see something that is devastating. You have to decide what you can live with, and what you can't stand not knowing.

((hugs))

[hoosjim]

Thanks, Sandi. Especially for the hugs. Need it on this roller coaster.

I understand being cautious not to appear paranoid, but you really should have asked about the jewelry. You are her H, and if she's clinging to anything sentimental from OM.....it has to go. It makes no difference how much she likes it, how expensive it may be, or how nice it looks on her. It will forever be an attachment to OM. She should place your concerns and need to feel safe in the MR before her friends, things, and certainly anything connected to OM.

I obviously should have asked this question at the point I had my suspicions, and I absolutely get and agree that all vestiges of relationship with OM (including gifts) have to go, but... Honest question: What is really the point of asking that question now? Either I am right, and one or both are gifts from OM (in which case she is being deceptive to me know and, presumably, would just lie and say she bought them for herself or the like), or I am wrong and she actually did buy them for herself or the like. Either way, her answer to me will be the same ""No, OM didn't buy them for me, I bought them for myself." I learn nothing and then she a) is tipped off that I am suspcicious if she is actually up to something, making it more likely she stays "underground" OR b) thinks I am becoming paranoid and focusing on the OM and the past instead of on advancing our MR.

I don't tell many people to do this, but I think you need to either put the surveillance up, or talk to her about your feelings.

I dont know that either of these will be worthwile, and its really starting to bug me, whig me out, and put me back in fight or flight mode. If I talk to her and she is being duplicitous, she's just going to lie. If she's not hiding anything, I come off as paranoid and insecure. As for surveillance, I have been spot checking her and the worst she has done is drive by OM's old hangout, and she kinda sorta told me about it afterward... some of things she says from time to time make me think she knows I can track the car if i want, and I know she knows i can track her phone since she voluntarily turned it back on. Would be a pretty simple matter for her to have a burner phone at her office on which she could talk to OM. She routinely stays late at work, for completely believable and verifiable reasons, but also could easily be meeting OM for periodic talks during some of that time. I simply have no means of finding out outside of hiring a PI or something-- my intel-gathering means are limited to phone tracking and phone records (both of which she knows about), car tracking (which she suspects, I think), and recording her conversations in the car (which I am pretty sure she has figured out or at least suspects based on what I had told her I know of her carryings on with OM as well as based on the fact that she doesn't seem to talk very much, if at all, on the phone in the car anymore unless it is to me. This is at least what the phone records say and the two spot checks I have done on her in recent weeks turned up no other calls, (Though I did find out that some calls coming into her phone in the car, as well as into her phone at her office, do not register on the call log-- possibly due to wi fi and or bluetooth issues.) Im really at a loss here and, for the most part, think I am stuck trusting her unless and until she seriously slips up or else drops the bomb on me again.

She HAS had a pullback the last couple of weeks. Fewer phone calls to me from work... she had been calling pretty much every day and sometimes several times... pulling away some when I reach out to her physically. But all of this could still be just the time needed to get over the A and rekindle feelings with me... I pretty much have no way of knowing and I am trapped in this paradigm of "we're working on it with the counselor", but that has tailed off a bit. Frustrating.

[Maika]

For the jewelry, there has to be a transaction record. If she said she bought it herself, was it through debit, credit, cash? Do you have access to those records? If she says that, can she produce the transaction record? I know this sounds like serious interrogation, but it is about transparency. Can she be transparent with you? If she's lying, you'll know that pretty fast if she can't tell you how she bought them or can't produce a record. Even if she paid by cash, there would be a withdrawal record on the account. The money didn't just come out of nowhere.

In terms of phone and car surveillance, if she's onto it and she wants to deceive you, I am sure there are tons of ways to do that. If one is going to be deceptive, google will find all the answers for them.

I am not trying to get your paranoid, but don't substitute surveillance and spot checking as the only transparency measures. It should mean that you are within your right to ask these questions. And as Sandi pointed out, with so many signs, it starts to add up and it doesn't just become a coincidence.
Maybe nothing has happened, but if you're in recon, I believe that you are in your right to ask questions and share your feelings, doubts, and whatever else.

I hope it's a big pile of nothing for your sake. Sounds like you've made good progress, but things have cooled off lately.