How a treehouse can cost you your marriage 2

[Clyde]

You will not prove her wrong and she will not have an epiphany that you were right all along, and if she'd just listened to your flawless logic none of this would have happened.

Seems a lot clearer/obvious when put that way.

Moral victories ARE NOT victories!.

So true, I am applying this one to disagreements the W and have had over the years, as I sit here it seems so obvious, but that might be one that only makes since when you are where we are today.

I can relate with your whole post... sounds like we are a lot alike. Triggered some serious self reflection.

[Clyde]

Matrix,

Thanks for the link, I checked out the post from CT - yes it is a very healthy, rational and inspiring perspective, I don't know that this hell we are going through could be summed up any better. I've bookmarked it, and will reference back to it on those days when I need some wind in my sails.

I've also started to read his threads, and while I' am not all the way through I can see that he truly used his experience to better himself.

[Clyde]

Clyde,

It’s okay to long for those days. You are grieving the loss of your marriage, the woman you married, and the future you thought was yours. Go through all your stages of grief...and when you are ready, you’ll start to accept this death, let go and move on...and when that longing comes back...make space to grieve again.

Thanks Gordie,

6 months into this and I am finally starting to see that it is a process, a process that can not be denied or set aside for another time.

On a lighter note, I was hanging out w/ my S4 in the yard today... I don't quite remember what I was telling him but his response was "I know Dad" (this has been his go to response for the past few weeks) so I replied " you seem to know a lot these days buddy", he went on to tell me "Dad - I know everything" I chuckled and told him, "thats good buddy, I remember back when I knew everything... life was much easier", in my head I was thinking - just wait till you get married buddy!

[CT1118]

Just a moment Clyde, I a going to hijack briefly...


***> Matrix,
You honor me. It is humbling to read your input and to comprehend that I have been of some help. Thank you, truly.<***

Thanks for the brief aside there on your post Clyde. First off, it is cathartic to dump our M's bile here, so if posting in the forum about the sister eases you, then you should do it. This is your thread in a safe and anonymous place - so bleed, weep, scream, and even celebrate (believe it or not, that day will come) the story as you will. Keep that real life notebook safe from any prying eyes though - btw, I kept one with printed DB stuff too.

That said...

My reason for feeling the need to elaborate on these outings is that some have said I am being controlling (and I can see why they might think that without further elaboration) before the M went haywire, she broke the trust several times regarding these outings... do I lie and say I trust her? Or is this where the healthy boundaries come in.

Clyde, before we get to your question(s), I will ask you to appreciate the irony of your statement ^^^. Your feeling like you need to elaborate to illustrate to the forum that you are not a controlling person is an illustration of being a controlling person. Your entire first thread had the symptoms of a controlling personality, I'm not going to replay it here, but it did. And now, here you are, facing one of the most out of control situations you could have ever imagined and thinking you can control it, i.e. explain yourself further in hopes that those who said you were controlling will come to understand if you can only explain a little bit more is EXACTLY the irony of you quoting EASTTN in your Nov 11th post!

Me sticking to your initial goals, sir, you are still here because you want to find a truth. Here is what you got presently, you got no control over W or W's friends. W has left and what specific thing can you do right this very second about her choice(s)? If you thought "jack sh*t" then you got that right. What you can do, is think about what I said before, in summary, tearing yourself down and cleaning all of your parts. Where does that desire to control come from Clyde? Who or what taught you that, and you were taught that. Control is a form of self defense - there is a burn down in there somewhere.

Praise be upon the day that I was asked this:

By becoming individuals again we can see who is really the source of the problem, is it ourselves or is it our partner?

Now, regarding your questions - do you lie and say you trust her or is this where healthy boundaries come in... Depends, do you want to live with yourself as confident and emotionally strong individual or do you want to continue to blame WW for all the ailments of your current persona? A man in the construction business w/ 3 kids and a W in school - brave endeavor sir, so I'm leaning toward your brave heart choosing the answer that does not leave you punishing WW's memory or presence for the rest of days. She broke your trust AND your heart dude, but statistics lean highly towards the probability that you helped break something in her too. And together you both f'ked that M up.

Yes, this is where boundaries come in, but a common misconception is that boundaries are to defend the LBS from the WAS, they are not. The boundaries are inside of us and they are new boundaries we strive to achieve regarding our own behavior, not fences we place around others. Think about that for a moment, because how we frame our thoughts will make a difference.

As I was told once, get the shovel out and start digging. Find out who Clyde becomes, he's down there.

[Gordie]

CT1118,

That was beautiful. Awesome advice for all.

Also, thought you were from Connecticut!

[Gordie]

Clyde,

It’s okay to long for those days. You are grieving the loss of your marriage, the woman you married, and the future you thought was yours. Go through all your stages of grief...and when you are ready, you’ll start to accept this death, let go and move on...and when that longing comes back...make space to grieve again.

Thanks Gordie,

6 months into this and I am finally starting to see that it is a process, a process that can not be denied or set aside for another time.

On a lighter note, I was hanging out w/ my S4 in the yard today... I don't quite remember what I was telling him but his response was "I know Dad" (this has been his go to response for the past few weeks) so I replied " you seem to know a lot these days buddy", he went on to tell me "Dad - I know everything" I chuckled and told him, "thats good buddy, I remember back when I knew everything... life was much easier", in my head I was thinking - just wait till you get married buddy!

Clyde,

That’s awesome. Stay close to the little ones. They perceive a lot but don’t have the tools and words to process them. Spend a lot of time with them and physically engage them—hugs, tickles, piggy backs—it expresses a father’s love that they need right now.

[Clyde]

Who or what taught you that, and you were taught that. Control is a form of self defense - there is a burn down in there somewhere.

Some of it from my upbringing, some of it from experiences in my M. Something I can/and have worked on though. I am very analytical and am a perfectionist... I'm sure that does not help.

The main thing my wife complains about me being controlling over is a byproduct of her actions... (to be clear, I am not saying that I am not being controlling,) what I am saying is her main example/gripe of me being controlling is the outings w/ the sister, but at this point I will not tolerate the crap that I highlight below. This has been beating to death in MC & IC, the C says my concerns have been validated time & time again.

I really think that when it got brought up in MC, my W thought the C was going to say that I was being unreasonable/controlling, instead after listening to the history and the state of our M, he suggested that the W refrain from these outings for the time being until our M was on a solid footing, he even went a step further and stated my W age and said "aren't you a little old for this kind of stuff anyhow?"

So here we go, (I'll take your advice Ct) time to dump on the W and "sister", if nothing else it will make me feel better, maybe it will shed some light, maybe it will bring some good advice as to how I should move forward in these sitch's, I hope the later will be the case as it is an unresolved matter w/ the W and I that will need to be addressed if R is to be successful. (It came up again, during a long R talk 2 days ago, that talk along w/ some of the W's actions are looking like piecing might be on the horizon... I'll go into that in my next post).

Incident #1: W and I are dating, pretty much living together at this point. W says she is going to L.A. for the weekend w/ the sister. I say cool, have a good time. First night I text goodnight, no answer. I decide F that, I'm not reaching out anymore. W goes the whole weekend w/out texting/calling.

Incident #2: Big camping trip w/ friends and family, there is a club about a block away (you can here the music at night). First night, the W & I call it a night early as our D was only 18 months at the time. We are laying in the tent, can here the music, the W rolls over and puts her arm around me and says, "I'm so glad I never have to step foot in a place like that again, (referring to the club) it's almost like we were lost, glad that chapter in life is over".

The next night I told the W that I would take care of our D, enjoy your time w/ your friends. I crashed out only to be woken by the sound of my W's and "sister's" voice screaming followed by guys cursing/yelling at on another. I jump out of the tent, climb up on my truck and can see a brawl in the parking lot of the club.

I called the W/ no answer for 1 hour, I could not leave my daughter in the tent alone so I was stuck worrying. When the W finally answers, she says her and the sister are walking on the beach, I say "yeah now you are, I heard you guys at the club, saw the brawl, and have been trying to get a hold of you since, thx for not answering the calls". Next day she claims the "sister" talked her into it.

My biggest beef w/ this was that she did not answer her phone, she tried to play it off as walking on the beach... had she just text me -"sister and I are going to the club to grab a drink, I would of felt completely different about the whole thing.

Incident #3: This is a big one!!! I plan a surprise B-day party for the W. About a month before, I tell the sister time/date of party and ask her to make sure her side of the family is there on time, it's going to be a surprise. I set the W up w/ a day at the spa til 2p.m. (time of the party). Week before the party the W informs me she is going to the "sister's" b-day party, the same date/time. I ask her to call her back and clarify time/date... sure as $h!t the "sister" pulled the rug out from under the W's party.

At that point I had to tell the W about her surprise party. She says awe, thats so sweet and so on. The W says that is fine I won't go to the "sisters" party, but is also bummed that none of her friends will be at her party - as they are all going to the "sisters". As a few days go by the "sister" talks her into not going to the spa, moving her party ahead by 2 hours, so that she can then go to her party. Thats exactly what the W does, none of her people even showed to the W's party, and she bailed 2 hours into it.

To pour salt in the wound, at about 11p.m. I call the W as it was raining cats and dogs... I was going to suggest that if she hadn't already left, that she just spend the night at the sisters. She answers and I can tell they are at a club, I ask what happened to the party, she says going clubbing was all part of the plan... along w/ spending the night. Total B.S., this was never discussed.

Incident #4: I plan a night out for the W and I as a B-day present for her. I spend $120 on concert tickets, (this was a big deal/expense at the time as the economy/money was down) and got dinner res at nice restaurant. Low and behold who shows up at the restaurant with an entourage... the "sister".

We migrate to the bar in the restaurant, the "sister" being the attention wh*re she is, demands all my W's attention, (yes my W is just as much to blame). Anyhow I'm like the odd man out watching the clock reminding the W we have to go - concert is starting. "Sister" says just one more drink and so on and so on...I am trying my best to go w/ the flow (maybe even not be controlling - lol), 2 hours later I put my foot down and say ok, we are leaving. Low and behold we pull up to the concert and everyone is walking out, we missed the show!

At this point I am pissed about the history of the "sister" being put in front of everything else, the W says "but I never see her", I reply "its been 4 years since we've been on a date", W is too proud to acknowledge her lack of consideration that night. I point out that it seems as though the "sister" is always trying to interfere, I'm told I'm crazy. Silent car ride home and several days after.

There are dozens of other incidents were they will just be hanging out at the "sister's" house and the W will not answer her phone or reply to text for hours. I am now getting wind that the best friend's H is complaining same thing happens when his W hangs out w/ the "sister".

This only happens when she is w/ the sister, otherwise she always answers her phone or calls back right away.

[kml]

Have you considered the possibility that she and the "sister" could be having a lesbian affair?

Whatever it is - your wife's not right. Seriously, who lets $120 worth of concert tickets go to waste like that? That was disrespectful and just plain selfish. In fact all of your examples are.

Also this "sister" sounds like a sociopath.

[Clyde]

So I am trying hard not to get my hopes up, but it does seem as though there is a change in tides happening. There was the "goodnight, cu tomorrow" text (first since S)... I wrote it off as a temp check.

Phone convos (not about the R) are getting more frequent, I'm trying to walk the line here as far as Db'ing goes... I try to be the one who ends them first, In the past week I have not always answered and not text back right away. Again I'm trying to walk that line as she has said in past R talks that she felt like I was checked out at times when I was working crazy hours, so a 180 for me is to make sure I am there to have a reciprocal convo with. My W is not wayward, so while I know I should not be pursing, I don't know that going dim is my best plan of action at this point... any advice?

A few days ago she text "getting off work in 30 min, I'll call when I am off", I did not respond - she never called, I questioned myself if that was the right move on my part?

2 days ago, I was dropping S4 off at her place, she sat in the middle of the couch, knowing I was going to sit also making it to where we were sitting next to one another. We talked small talk at one point she looked at me and I could see a difference (those who have looked at your W in the eyes after BD only to see right through/hollowness, will probably know exactly what I am referring to), it was a passionate stare, I was caught off guard and ended up looking away.

My S4 came up and asked her when she was coming home, her reply was "I don't know". S4 ran off to go play in his room, I told her that both S4 & S7 were really leveling some tough questions my way about the sitch the last few days.

The convo then turned to R talk, we talked for about 2.5 hours, I did a better job validating this time. I did go further than validating though as she opened the door to my feelings on things. We talked a lot about our communication problems, how we could of handled things better. After covering much ground I wanted to leave it on a good note, so I told her I had to get going.

Later that day we had a teacher conference, at the last one she sat away from me, made it clear to the teacher we were S. This time she sat next to me, at one point she said where we live (as if we lived in the same house), she even called me "babe".

Later that night we were talking on the phone, she mentioned D13 needing to come to my house to type a report, I asked when it was due, she said Friday. I suggested that D13 handwrite it and have it all done so that when she is at my house thurs. night, all she will have to do is type it. W said yeah thats a good idea.

The next day she text me, "What r u up to? Was thinking about coming by so that D13 can do her report." I told her I was just working on the house, come on over. She showed up mid afternoon and hung out for close to 5+ hours. It was as if she never moved out. I gave her space, finished my project, we sat and talked on and off through out the evening, at one point I went off by myself and read a magazine, did an art project w/ S7.

She left to run some errands for about 30 mins., she had stopped by the library to grab some books for S7, when they got back she told me she was looking for a book for me called "the 5 love languages for men" but they did not have it. I said that was thoughtful, thanks anyway. In my head I was thinking, wow - why would she suggest that if she was not considering R?

BTW, I went and got that book this a.m. I was thinking, does this give me the green light to recommend/give her books on MR?

We cooked dinner side by side, said grace, and ate as a family. What was different this family meal from others we have had since S, is that we both sat at the heads of the table like we did before S/BD, I had noticed in the past she would avoid sitting at the head of the table.

Before she left she mentioned that they scheduled her to work on T-giving, she put in a request to have it off and is looking to get someone to cover it.

As she was leaving she said she had a nice time, thanks for having them over. No hugs or anything like that.

Today my sister called me, said she saw my W at the elementary school, said the W went out off her way to come up to her and say hi, and that she was super nice.

So fellow DB'ers, any advice on how to proceed. It goes without saying that I need to continue to work on myself, I know she is seeing the changes. I am pretty certain she was/is experiencing a MLC, so she could quite possibly do something tomorrow that will completely undermine this progress. Is this a temp check? In my head I thought that we would verbally decide to re commit, but is it just going to slowly unfold like this? I am adamant that she needs to be the one who brings up moving back in if we even cross that bridge.

[Clyde]

Have you considered the possibility that she and the "sister" could be having a lesbian affair?

Whatever it is - your wife's not right. Seriously, who lets $120 worth of concert tickets go to waste like that? That was disrespectful and just plain selfish. In fact all of your examples are.

Also this "sister" sounds like a sociopath.

kml,

I've flat out asked, the W got pissed off that I did. The reason I am certain they are not, even the W knows the "sister" is a cesspool for STDs.

Our MC - my IC thinks their bond goes back to when they were kids, while my W's family was insane going off the tracks, my W was staying w/ the "sister's" family, (and while that household was anything but sane) it still was shelter from the storm, an escape from the madness.

Yes, it was disrespectful and selfish of the W, the thing is, this is the only setting she behaves this way, otherwise she is the most selfless thoughtful person I have ever met.

Yes the "sister" is a sociopath amongst many other things.