Limerence and My Situation Pt3

[BluWave]

Thanks for your thoughtful answer! I have to say, for someone that has only been here a couple months, I am impressed at how much you are willing to think about things and your motivation to work hard at this without being derailed by emotions. If you read my sitch, you would know that I failed at this for a long time and I didn't even post after BD; perhaps I just couldn't endure the 2*4s like some of you brave people!

My post was initially me just wanting to know what "LO" stood for. The only thing I was able to find online was "Limerance Object." Is that how you are using it? I hear what you are saying about OM and the stages of limerance. Yes, you are correct that often Rs go through a period of deterioration. Mine certainly did and we were separated for 10 long months while he was with OW.

I have also spent my fair share of time demonizing OW. TBH, the more my H and I work on our piecing process, the more I can see that the A truly was a limerance R, a fantasy, one where he was trying to escape his life, and one where she did most of the initiating and pursuing. It doesn't however change the pain of the betrayal though because he still broke my heart and essentially turned my life upside down. It has been a tremendously difficult process to repair the damage and learn to love him again.

So I want to press you a little bit harder. I think the language we use is telling about our intentions. Referring to OM as Affair Person and Limerance Object in my POV dehumanizes him. I think my H's ex-OW (who mind you posed as a close friend for many years) has no moral compass, has a personality disorder, is pathetic, selfish, and a desperate wh-re. Guess what tho? She is still a human being and for whatever reason for that period of time, he still chose her.

I am concerned about two things for you. 1. that you are dehumanizing him and keeping this wall up to protect yourself emotionally. This is terribly painful and it is important at some point to accept this harsh reality and start the grieving process. I haven't seen this in any of your posts and I am concerned. 2. I think you are sure that their R will come to an end and you are focused on keeping yourself a better option in hopes she will eventually see it. I know others here have told you the same thing so I am sorry to repeat it. The 180s and GAL have got to be for you and you only. It's time to let go and live your life. I don't see that happening yet and I hope you can get there!

I think it's time to let go of her and start your grieving process. It has been said here that the M is dead and gone and we will never get it back. A small percentage of us will have a chance to have a new R with our spouse, but most won't. I have been very, very fortunate to have this opportunity. But I'll tell you this Mark, I was not keeping myself the better option, not at all. I don't think he was trying to leave the M, limerance or not, so he found his way back.

I think you are still focused on if and when her A comes to an end. Maybe she will think she "made the biggest mistake of her life,' but more likely she won't. It seems that most WWs do not return to the M and often used the A to exit the M. That appeared to very much be the case with my H's ex-OW. When my H left her and came back to me, she moved right on to OM2. I mean within a few weeks! Heck, we have some reasons to believe she was already involved with OM2. Now, 2 years later, I have heard she is getting M to OM2. None of it makes senses--her H was truly the prize over all these men; he is highly intelligent, attractive, a hard worker & provider, a great dad, and he is fun and funny! She didn't want to go back to the M, she was done when she left, and my (limited) opinion is that she is not willing and/or able to look at herself. Some people want to leave the past behind them and keep going for what is shiney and new. I sort of pity these people because her H and her had a beautiful family and home and she just cowardly ran to others to feel good about herself. The thing is tho, that even tho we all see that, it doesn't matter, she will do what she will do. And FYI her H DB'd his tail off--far better than I did--and she still never looked back. ... Now tho, he has the benefits of the hard work he put in and he has moved on.

I am sorry if this was all over the place. You don't have to give a lengthy response and dissect it. Plus, you are obviously very intelligent and convincing in your posts :-) Here is the thing tho, that doesn't help you and may be hurting you. Being right doesn't equal being happy. Let her go, Mark, please. And stop focusing on when the A dies and if she regrets it. That is her problem. You just start at square one and get really f-ing sad. Your W just kicked you to the curb and replaced you with some other man--it's awful and it's time to get sad and angry! I happen to think all the GAL and 180s will only take you so far if you haven't fully accepted the M is over first.

Blu

[Parkema]

25yearsmlc,

I respect your views I truly do and maybe I do come across as the lonely dog barking into the mist waiting for my WW to re-appear but since I started on these boards I have listened and am adapting my views.

I continue to DR and will continue to throughout the rest of my life BUT only the part I feel is useful:
• Smart contact – I don’t go looking to communicate with my WW BUT when the opportunity arises I’m determined to show her the best me.
• Detachment – believe it or not I don’t care if I see her any more I can take it or leave it. Unfortunately we have had children together and so will always have interaction.
• Work on me – I’m in the best shape now since my military days and this is being noticed, I’m looking at where I failed in the MR Intimacy, emotional connection and Mr Nice Guy syndrome to say a few.
• GAL’ing – recently told WW I’m planning to be away on a day where I SHOULD have the kids and have asked her to change these days. Not being home when she comes around, not being able to answer the boy’s facetime calls due to not being in.
I’m sure the above is a good start…

I feel where I get the most 2x4’s is when I mention the following:
1. Being her safe place – if you see the response to BluWaves reply you’ll notice my thoughts on deterioration and also my views on the limerence effect (original post), I intend to show her a safe place when she needs it BUT due to me detaching this is few and far between.
2. Being her friend – again when SHE progresses this I’m not here now waiting to expect her to sit down each day and talk about any old thing IT JUST DOESN’T HAPPEN but with the eventual deterioration of their A she will possibly want someone to talk to hopefully she’ll remember that I am a good person/husband/father and someone she could rely on way in the past and come to me. This is where I feel the DR books content comes into its own.

Cake eating simply does not happen she’s not here and doesn’t want to be here, I suppose what I’m doing is future looking but am well aware that their A most likely will continue even when deterioration kicks in and the cracks start to appear as pride will stop her from doing the right thing.
But by working on myself, showing a confident happy carefree individual acting “as if” he knows everything is going to be okay will spark her interest again but also know this will ONLY happen under her timescale and need to be extremely patient but GAL’ing will definitely help with this.

Of course I’m in a weak position, she holds all the cards BUT this isn’t about me it’s about her and as you know there’s nothing I can do to affect that, all I can do is work on making me the best me I can. This I intend to do and then when that point in time comes and the effects of the A wears off a little I’m going to revert to doing everything I can to re-build our MR.

I do appreciate you wanting to keep me on the straight and narrow and would appreciate you keeping up with my posts as I can only benefit from your experience.

Thanks.

Mark.

[TBSakaJ9]

Blu....that was an awesome post. I got a lot out of it. ty!

[lcause]

I agree entirely with Blu. Thank you for that post. The percentage of piecers is really small. We all have to realize this. We have to realize we don't control it. Both people need to go through their own journeys and most likely they do not end up joining together again.

2. Being her friend – again when SHE progresses this I’m not here now waiting to expect her to sit down each day and talk about any old thing IT JUST DOESN’T HAPPEN but with the eventual deterioration of their A she will possibly want someone to talk to hopefully she’ll remember that I am a good person/husband/father and someone she could rely on way in the past and come to me. This is where I feel the DR books content comes into its own.

What I've read during my sitch, most of the WWs do not go back to the M if their XH is like you are explaining here. Because that isn't attractive at all. You will much more likely end up being a "gay boyfriend" who gets to listen to all the tears while she takes other men. Trust me on this, the successful cases with WWs are when the H has been more with a "f u b¤&%!" mentality (well, not directly like that, but you get the point ). Showing an attractive alpha male who doesn't care a crap about her. I mean, she DISRESPECTED you. You need to gain that respect back. Read TX's thread. That's EXACTLY how Tx was. YOUR W HAS TO WIN YOU BACK!!! It's not the other way around.

You are a valuable person and the world is full of women who would want you Mark. Stop keeping her in a pedestal - detach from yourself and look at the situation in 3rd person. Are you REALLY sure you even want a person like this back?! (you can use this mentality to "gain the respect back"). I am not in a similar situation (my XW is having an A/new R, but is not pushing it to my face and we have active D waiting period already) but I already realized that I'm not in love anymore - I'm just sad because I have LOST the CONTROL and I just FEAR the FUTURE. Are you sure you aren't in a similar situation?

Sorry about the 2x4 especially if it's wrong as I haven't read the entire sitch through. Not trying to sound mean or anything. I just fear that you don't see this and end up hurting yourself in the long-run.

[Parkema]

Hi BluWave,

Again I appreciate your view.

“For whatever reason for that period of time, he still chose her.”
^^^^ Blu do you feel he chose HER or the fantasy? We were all in this fantasy at some point, the R was exiting and new and invigorating and this is perfectly natural. If the two are able to carry this on then a long term R will evolve due to no guilt or obligations that come if they are in a long term R or worse MR. Due to these the A tends to play out and fizzle away and one then sources RC with their BS OR look for their next fix! Possibly in most cases they simple carry on with the A and due to the BS giving in too soon D crops up and we are where we are.

I will ask you a question though…
What did you change that led you to piecing with your WH? Did he just come back or was it a mixture of DR’ing and a pleasant demeanour towards him? Do you think the best approach for RC is to have little if not no interaction? Sorry three questions but I see this as so counter-intuitive it screams ACCEPTANCE! Accept the MR is over and move on. NO I can’t do this YET maybe down the line but we aren’t even talking D and I need to know I did EVERYTHING to try and RC the MR. No contact with WW will IMHO says to her “look I’m not bothered about you carry on” and why wouldn’t she..? I can still DR I just want her to know that I’m still around!

“I am concerned about two things for you. 1. That you are dehumanizing him and keeping this wall up to protect yourself emotionally. This is terribly painful and it is important at some point to accept this harsh reality and start the grieving process. I haven't seen this in any of your posts and I am concerned. 2. I think you are sure that their R will come to an end and you are focused on keeping yourself a better option in hopes she will eventually see it. I know others here have told you the same thing so I am sorry to repeat it. The 180s and GAL have got to be for you and you only. It's time to let go and live your life. I don't see that happening yet and I hope you can get there!”

To be totally honest I don’t give him the time of day, he’s not worth it. Dehumanizing him! He doesn’t exist.

I don’t really see it has so much his fault but something that is fundamentally wrong in our MR R, again deterioration of our R led WW to the actions SHE did AP/LO was just in the right place at the right time.
Do you not think this won’t happen in her new A R?

I’m sorry but have MANY times stated the likely outcome to the end of limerence in her and am not suggesting for one second the most likely result will be a return to the MR.

I’m going to be slaughtered here but why not FIGHT for your MR? Why not continue to show her AND THE WORLD the very best version of Mark? Why not slow the whole process down?

In the beginning I would agree with you that I was blinkered into thinking this was some sort of temporary fling which she needed to get out of her system but as time goes on I am realising there is NOTHING I can do to affect her actions and so why bother! I do as you point out intend to DR and for a while know this is for my benefit but please keep hitting me with those 2x4’s.

Grieving for the end of my MR will not be seen here YET (although lots of tears have been shed) as I still intend to fight as this is the right thing to do.

Time will tell, No one knows the future and I’ll continue to present the best version of me whilst DR’ing my butt off.

Thanks Blu you help more than you know.

Mark.

[BluWave]

What I've read during my sitch, most of the WWs do not go back to the M if their XH is like you are explaining here. Because that isn't attractive at all.

I completely agree with lcause and this seems to be a common mistake made by the LBH with a WW, and especially by the NGs! They seem to think that if they are nice, friendly, and safe that some day their WW will "wake up," "start seeing things clearly" or "come to their senses" and return to the M. THEY FALSELY THINK THIS MAKES THEM THE BETTER OPTION. I have been reading here for 3 plus years and I can't think of one example where that has happened. There is another poster--I think his name is Chris73--where he challenges the ideas around DB and attempts this friendly approach for some time. Unfortunately, it does not work. WWs do not respect being allowed to walk all over their H and then watching them try and nice them back into the M. It's not human nature to be attracted to someone that is weak and needy.

There are several vets that have been here and seen it all--Sandi, Cadet, Starsky, 25mlc, AnotherStander, to name a few--and there advice is invaluable! I know it is so hard to change the way you see your sitch, but the reality is that when anyone is in a crisis, they cannot see their sitch objectively, it's impossible, because there are emotions tied to it and the person is invested in the outcome. So Mark, please trust that the posters here are only telling you what they know to be true because they want to help you. They are telling you that the approach you are taking will not get you the outcome you desire. I am not a vet--I have been reading here just over 3 years--but I can share with you what worked in my sitch. I will also tell you that the advice here (a lot of which was too hard for me to take) was right on target.

Blu do you feel he chose HER or the fantasy?

I personally feel that he chose the fantasy. Why? Because that makes ME FEEL BETTER, and it makes it easier to forgive him. The reality tho is that it doesn't make a difference. He chose her and he chose the fantasy, but more so than that he left me and our M for a long time. He was physically gone from the M and our home for 10 months and he was engaging in some type of EA for about 8 months before that. Some here say that the A has to go out into the real world and die a natural death and according to you it eventually will. I think that is a fair assessment. As much as it hurts me to admit, limerance or not, he did think that he loved her, he did like how she made him feel about himself, and he did leave the M for her. If there is something that I want you to take away from my answer it would be that it is really not our position to ascribe meaning of the A for them and we really can't because we are not them. Also, it works against us because as we cloud the importance of reality, we prevent ourselves from experiencing it (the reality of our sitch) and the much needed grief that comes after acceptance. I think it is so painful that we put up a wall and then use words like--MLC, fog, alien, limerance, etc, because to us it feels less real that way. Not accepting what is really happening does not help us but serves to only make rationalizations for their behavior.

What did you change that led you to piecing with your WH? Did he just come back or was it a mixture of DR’ing and a pleasant demeanour towards him?

If you read my sitch you will see that I was the worst DBer (maybe in history); I came here and read every day and then couldn't seem to apply the principles. I was rarely, if ever, pleasant because I was furious and devastated! The way that I failed was that I showed him my most vulnerable self--if I was angry I lashed out, if I was sad/needy I told him, and I tried various methods of persuasion. It wouldn't work, I would feel ashamed, and then I would go back to stonewalling him and punishing him. He would send me emails about the kids and their weekend together and I would ignore him. I played hard on his guilty conscious because I knew he was suffering being a cheater and a classic NG. I mean I could go on and on.

I finally got to a point where I realized I was only torturing myself. Even though I was getting better and better at "following the rules," 180s, and GAL, I was doing it to show him and not to feel better and move on without him. People are very, very intuitive and I am sure he sensed the change. I allowed myself to accept that I am simply too good to be waiting around for someone that could cheat and walk out on their family. Basically I found my balls (or whatever women find. lol) I finally dropped the rope--and I mean let go--and he somehow immediately noticed.

Simultaneously, their A was fizzling out. The reality of the A was not what he wanted. Way too much to write about here! So the combo of the limerance (or whatever) wearing out and me finally dropping the rope, had a huge impact on him and he did a sharp 180, ended the A, and practically begged me to take him back. ... Here is the part that kinda svcks for you guys tho; I don;t think it was anything I did or could control that brought him back. I think he would have come back anyhow. We have pretty much talked about everything in the last 2.5 years and this guy was hurting, confused, a suffocated and desperate NG who had no idea how to navigate a long M with kids, and he bailed, but in his heart he really always wanted his M and family back.

Here is what I do think would have made a difference in my sitch: if I had known about DB before BD. If I had read the book, been reading here, been following the rules, the 180s, the GAL, for me tho, etc, BEFORE this happened, I honestly don't think he would have ever left and I don't think he would have taken their original A (EA with makeout sessions in the park) to a full on R. My lack of being able to DB from the get-go definitely drove him to run from me and to her.

Do you think the best approach for RC is to have little if not no interaction?

I don't know. I can see it both ways and there are some here that say that sharing kids is a benefit because it forces more interactions and therefore there are more opportunities to show them your changes. That doesn't make sense to me because having kids and having to share that for me made things all the more painful. Also, if the goal is to make the changes for us and not them, them that shouldn't really matter right? So I don't think their is an easy answer to that.

I am not going to bore you and go on and on and on, but Mark, reading the rest of your post breaks my heart. As suspected you have not accepted your reality. One of dearest friends was so brutally honest with my post-BD and it HURT SO, SO MUCH, but now, years later I can tell you that it is what I needed to hear. So Mark, my dear, I am so sorry but I am going to hit you with some truth darts and I do so with love, because we are all brothers and sisters here. I want you to move forward and I want you to start healing, and I only think you can start that if you see the truth:

OM is a real person and your W has left you for him. It is terrible, but it has happened. She may never leave OM and if some day she does, she most likely will not come back to the M. Your M as you knew it is dead, gone, over, and is history. You deserve a W that loves you and respects you. The only person now that can save you, is YOU. You do this by deciding that you deserve better than her and you start to create a life without her and without focus on her. You accept that she will never even think about coming back to you, or even looking over her shoulder, until she sees a man that is strong and knows his worth. Your worthy of better than her, Mark. Mark is a man that is too good to wait and to try and be friends with her. A man that knows his worth does not want to be friends with a woman (not any woman but a WIFE) that lies, cheats, and gives up on her family. Can you accept this?

Mark, I want you to get angry. I want you to allow the sadness in! Please do not postpone your process any longer by not accepting your reality. Then, and only then, can you start to heal.

Blu

[TBSakaJ9]

Blu,

Can you elaborate more on your thoughts with kids? I find that it is harder to not be some what friends with the W since we have so many activities together with the kids. From a co-parenting standpoint and helping our kids get through it. Does that make sense? Any advice on how you can find the right balance? As you note above there are more opportunities to show your changes. Thanks!

[Rose888]

I don't understand why you think cutting contact implies acceptance of the affair.

To my mind, continuing to be friendly sends a much stronger message of accepting her behavior.

Think about it. People disown family members or drop friends because they object to their behavior. It's a pretty strong pattern.

How is staying friends fighting for your marriage? It seems like it would make you less attractive, which would be bad for your marriage.

Maybe I'm not correctly picturing what you mean by staying friendly. Can you share a scenario and give us the friendly and the non-friendly response? It's possible I'm just getting tripped up on terms.

[Anchor]

Hi Parkema

I haven't read through your sitch thoroughly, so forgive me if I misunderstand something. I don't have any advice to give per se about your relationship with WW, but I wanted to offer an observation I've felt before when browsing your sitch.

I recognise a lot of the language you use - LO, fighting a year after you want to give up etc. It makes me think we've been tracing the same path. From your posts I am guessing you dipped into a few other programmes, one based in Nashville, for eg, and another which claims to have a 90% success rate and is basically centred on pursuit...?

I am a fixer, in a big way, and when my WH left, I went into fix-it over drive. I did a comprehensive survey of all the programmes out there. Basically I bought everything, starting with the pursuit programme. There were a couple of others that didn't click with me and I never really took to their material. When I read your posts I see bit and bobs from each of these programmes in there. I may be wrong of course, so I apologise if I am because the next part of my post is based on this assumption.

These are my thoughts:

All these programmes basically say the same thing - pick yourself off the floor, stop with the hysteria, work on yourself. There necessarily is differentiation in the product, so one programme will say pursuit will wear down the WS, whereas others will say pursuit is to be avoided at all costs. Some advise being the 'safe place' aka 'staying friends', another will say no contact is the only way to go. Each programme will critique the techniques used somewhere else.

Fixers are looking for a magic formula. There isn't one that exists that can be applied to all our individual situations, not down to the T anyway.

I think of it as tribalism. Here at the DB tribe, there is a certain philosophy about how to behave with a WW. Another tribe will advise differently. In addition to the 'safe place' tribe, and 'love them into returning' tribe, I've also observed the 'Chump nation' tribe and the 'standing/faith based' tribe. Each tribe has it's own philosophy.

I think the problem for you (and me) is that we don't belong to any one tribe per se. We've tried to settle in each one but for some reason not one single one is a complete fit. I am guessing this is what you're going through because even though you quote from other programmes/tribes, you're still posting in this tribe's forum, where you will not find widespread support for other tribes' stances.

I too, am very confused about my tribe identity, but every day I get a bit clearer. I've learned that I must listen to myself first, and not so much others, which is in part the reason why I stopped posting on my own sitch. I've tried all the approaches from the different tribes, and they didn't sit very well, so I came off as forced and false. More importantly, I felt terrible. I didn't have peace, I was always second guessing myself, I didn't feel like ME. Don't get me wrong - there are nuggets of gold in each philosophy, and I have learned something from every programme.

I am still finding my way. In my mind, this is my cocoon time. Values I hadn't considered for many years, about marriage, identity, love, life etc, I am examining now. In a way, I am in a period of metamorphosis. When I emerge, eventually, from this identity cocoon, I think my values will be locked in place and these values will ultimately tell me which tribe I belong to. I am describing this because I feel this may be something that you may wish to consider as being helpful to do. It's very difficult to go through this experience having one tribe identity, let alone multiple - it's confusing and one will inevitably come into conflict with another.

[Anchor]

Of course this is not meant to mean that you should stop posting here until you've declared yourself to be a true blue flag waving DB-ing tribe member. I have found, in myself, that when challenged, your deep seated values come to the fore. So it may be that the 2x4s you get here will be instrumental in deciding which path you wish to take.