WW in A. NC w/ OM(?) Next steps? (6th thread)

[sandi2]

I have felt reinvigorated the past 24-plus hours. Skipped church for two weeks in a row but "caught up" by listening to podcasts of the sermons past two days at gym. I really think its important (at least for me anyways) to have your thinking/perspective readjusted once a week, and church is my way of doing that. Coming to grips with the possibility of being on my own-- have wonderful kids despite their troubles, friends and family that love me... a lot of blessings to be thankful for and lots ahead of me with or without my W.

Good to hear you feel better. Yes, we must feed our spiritual side by listening to the Word taught/preached. It's as important as eating food to maintain our physical body.

[hoosjim]

Quick update:

Getting a plan in place to stabilize my Tourrettic S16 as school starts this week. Seems to be going well. Should free me up to get away for at least a few days to camp out and clear my head, though not the week to two weeks I was hoping for. Kid's not just in a place right now where I can run off and do that, especially with W and I both working full time.

Told W of my plans to do this (get away for a few). She asked if something was wrong and I just said "Nothing new, I just think we both have some thinking to do and I wanted to have some time to myself to do that." She mentioned she is thinking of "seeing someone" for IC. I reminded her I had seen the MC for a couple of IC sessions and that it had helped me. This could be either good or bad. Good if she follows through AND if she sees our very goal-oriented, affair-addictiveness-conversant and marriage-friendly MC or someone similar, but BAD if she gets guidance from bff (with whom she is STILL in constant contact) or otherwise ends up seeing one of the legions of "just do whatever makes yourself feel good" counselors/quacks that seem to be everywhere these days. We'll see. Not my battle to fight. Leaving that to the man upstairs. At least she's thinking of getting some help. Hoping and praying it ends up being the right kind.

We might be visiting S18 at college this coming Labor Day weekend for football game. (My Dad, who is an alum at same school as am I, and who is not aware of our MR difficulties, invited us.) Trying to figure out what that is going to look like. May have to tell Dad something of what's up.

[hoosjim]

Ugh.

So, okay, great. S17 comes home from school today and is a tick-y mess. (I came home early myself today to be here when he got home.) For those unfamiliar with Tourette's syndrome and it's variations and comorbidities, I will simply say this: My son has a very profound case, and, at times, presents like a person with autism and can effectively "shut down" or get "vapor locked" just like someone so afflicted. It can be heartbreaking. The good news is that with Tourette's and, in particular, Tourettic OCD which is a comorbidity from which my son suffers, a significant component of the disease is behavioral. Not ALL mind you, but a significant component. As such, he can be treated and "get better" to a much greater degree than can someone with autism. Also, since to a degree the symptoms are episodic (they wax and wane, often in association with external stressors) he is not, as someone with severe autism is, always "out of it". Sometimes he passes as completely functional/normal, although at all times his personality is just a wee bit... "quirky." Sweet kid, big heart, but obviously has issues. Holds him back to a degree in school even though he tests as "high IQ", and profoundly impacts both his social life (though he has good friends and he compensates) as well as his interactions at home, which have been increasingly stressed with W's and my difficulties.

How does this impact my current sitch? In a number of ways. Most significantly, it is impacting my freedom to "leave" and even, I would posit, to try to persuade my wife to "leave" if I want to create some separation. In some ways it even impacts my willingness to create an "in-house" separation or to otherwise stop "playing nice" with my W due to concerns over how degradations to the domestic environment might further stress/impact S17. The bottom line is that we have one year left to make a difference with him and get him straightened out (if he is to "leave the nest" like other HS graduates and move towards self-sufficiency) which, believe it or not, is a very real possibility if we (and he) commit ourselves to the effort. We are getting him back into weekly (maybe even twice-weekly) therapy, recommitting to the various home protocols, etc. (and, oh, by the way, trying to work on college apps and such) with him, which efforts had lapsed somewhat with both the advent of our MR issues and with the focus on S18 as we tried to get HIM over HIS issues in time for him to leave for college. (Mostly successful, there.) Either my W or I "leaving" (and we are both full-time workers), is going to significantly impact our ability to help S17 both directly due to the logistics and indirectly due to the increased stress.

I understand the theory that an unhappy marriage is more stress on the kids than is a split household but, in all honesty, at least to the kids' eyes, our marriage is probably more "productive" and healthy-appearing (at least outwardly and over the past month or two) than it has been in years. There is no abuse, my W and i are not fighting/arguing, our MR talks when they have occurred have occurred "offline", and both of us have been more outwardly "positive" than we had previously, at least when around the house. So I am not sure, unless the kids are good at picking up "vibes", that the current atmosphere for them is more toxic/stressful than would be a split. In fact, I rather think that it is not. Especially for the younger one (S17-- I think S18 had suspicions about the A, but he is off at college now).

So what do I do here? I have been gearing up (gathering my equipment, scouting campsites, etc) to make a move out of the house for a few days, and have even told my W I am going to be doing so when the weather breaks, by the end of Labor Day weekend at the latest.

But my heart breaks for S17 whenever I see him in the depths of one of his episodes, and I desperately want to do everything I can to help him and NOT to torpedo his progress. At the same time, I recognize the importance of taking care of myself, and of giving myself the time/space/whatever that I need to become a fully emotionally/mentally healthy person which, I admit, I probably am not right now. Layered onto this is the growing realization that I am in, in many ways, very "attached" to my wife and likely prone to look for excuses NOT to separate out of fear of losing her. So maybe my fears of hurting S17 are just another excuse.

Additionally, my W, while prolly "closer" to S17 than I am (S18 and I are the closer on that side), pretty demonstrably has a shorter fuse and less patience with him when he is in the depths of one of his spells than do I. If I jump ship for several days, not entirely sure she will be able to hang in there as the lone parent for him and pretty sure she will resent the hell out of me for leaving her alone with him if he is in any kind of "down cycle."

Anyone here have or know of any similar situations that they can speak to? Am I just worrying about nothing and generating excuses? I don't think so (you should see some of the videos I've collected of S17's episodes... heartbreaking). I think it's more likely that I am over-valuing my importance to the equation and de-valuing the importance of getting my own personal sitch figured out and detaching from my W. But I am interested in hearing others'thoughts, here.

[Holding]

Jim, my s10 received an informal tourette's diagnosis about a year ago. Both my sons have Adhd. S10 is also now showing some nerve damage in one of his hands and needs genetic testing.

My kids are everything to me and it's because of my commitment to them that I think I've been able to eat the sh*t sandwich for so long in my M.

Unfortunately I can't tell you what the right thing to do is. It's true that your son does need you. But he also needs an emotionally healthy you.

[hoosjim]

Jim, my s10 received an informal tourette's diagnosis about a year ago

Holding, this is obviously a bit of a tangent/sidebar/threadjack, but... I have obviously seen firsthand for many years now how disruptive actual Tourette's can be. It is NOT just the disease that "makes people shout out curse words at random intervals" (that is actually only a VERY minor subset of the condition that MOST T.S. patients do not experience.) HOWEVER: Wanted to share this since you sound mostly new to the syndrome-- 8-10 years is a very common diagnosis age. You "caught it" fairly early. And the early you catch it and treat it as Tourettes and not as something else, the better. YES, you should be willing to explore environmental factors such as food and other allergies and exposure to strep, and to consider alternative remedies and dietary supplementation (MAgnesium, Fish Oil, and B-12 are all clinically proven to help and are actually recommended by a significant number of mainstream doctors familiar with TS), BUT, and I CANNOT stress this enough: There is NO cure. Do NOT neglect the mental health angle when seeking treatment. Good and effective counseling, at an early age, can make all the difference in the world. You want a practitioner, preferably a PhD psychologist who is familiar at LEAST with CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) and preferably with CBIT (Cognitive Behavioral Intervention for Tics). The kids HAVE to be taught, counselled, and, in some senses reprogrammed to process their tics and the associated compulsions/urges/sensations. It is the closest thing to a cure that exists. We made the mistake of NOT going down that road until it was much later in my son's life (like 14 and almost 15), and in not seeking a CBT/CBIT professional at first. They are not easy to find, and there are alot of pracitioners out ther who set themselves forth as TS experts but are anything but. Find someone for whom that is a substantial portion of their practice. You may have to drive a while. We made many many LONG trips to the pediatric Tourette's unit at Johns Hopkins, which was excellent. Unfortunately, I don't know how they stack up now since the head of the division left in a shake up and moved to Cornell's medical center in New York. There is a fairly good center in suburban Maryland (don't know if I can mention counselling professionals by name on here) that is good but not quite up to what we were getting at Hopkins, which was VERY cutting edge stuff.

If you are interested and we can find a way to interface off line I could give you alot more insights and info.

Oh, another thing: Insist on family therapy being a component (or else find a practitioner that already incorporates family therapy). It can be a crucial component that makes all of the difference. These kids are wired differently and it can take the combined efforts of the whole family to really make a lasting difference.

But: Big lesson: don't delay in getting him treatment. It is easy to get lulled into a sense of complacency during the "down cycles" of the disease.

[hoosjim]

And, as an additional DB/MR-related note, it is the situation with my son and my wife's love for him that, ironically, makes me somewhat less trusting of her commitment to ME (and, yes, I know how selfish that sounds.) Bottom line, however, is that she loves those two boys so crazy much, is so afraid of losing them or of being the cause of their conditions worsening, that that is probably what "kept her around" as long as she did. If we were childless, or even if our boys were completely untroubled, there's a pretty good chance she'd have walked even before the Affair came about last Fall. She even said over and over early on in all of this that it was pretty much just for the kids that she was even thinking of trying to stick around and work on us. That tone has softened some in recent weeks, but I still think it is the major thing "keeping her around."

[OwnIt]

Jim, my D suffers from pretty profound depression and I was terrified about how she would handle my H leaving during her senior year when she had already been struggling. My overly sensitive son gave me grave concern for possible self-harm. I spent about 6 years of abuse (withholding, emotional games, mean comments, etc.--always away from the kids) with H in the home trying to keep him there. I do believe he cared about the kids and tried to stay. In the end, I couldn't take it anymore. At my D's request, I booted him from the home.

She got through her last year of HS (and even made the honor roll the last semester). She is now attending the top conservatory in the world and only a couple of days in seems exceptionally happy. My S is returning to himself after a really difficult year and is again looking forward to school and talking about wanting to do well.

Sadly my H has all but disappeared from their lives. But, I think the less he has been around, the better they have done. I really wish I had the strength to file for divorce 7 years ago when I first consulted a divorce attorney. I think I would have saved us all a lot of misery.

I know you have special circumstances and special needs, but that speaks to me more of a need to bring about stability. I thought my kids were oblivious to the strife and the tension. No, they knew about the problems before I could really accept them myself. They have both told me they are glad that he is not around anymore.

If your wife is truly committed to the kids she will work with you to ensure their success. If she is not, you are a strong man with his eyes on the prize and will do the right thing. She doesn't have to live in the same house with you to be a good mother to her boys.

Let go Jim. Just let her go and live your life. She may come back, she may not, but you all deserve some peace and happiness. Holding on just isn't good enough.

[hoosjim]

Another quick sidebar: How NOT to Divorce Bust.

If you're familiar with my sitch, you know my W's and my respective best friends married each other (we're how they met) and they are going through a split with somewhat similar backstory-- Neglect and SSM followed by WW having an A with husband's friend (also my friend.) There are some different overlays, though, notably that my friend's W (my own wife's "Bff") is a three-time adulteress at the expense of my friend (twice prior to current A), that friend's W is on her second marriage (married once prior to with my friend), that the AP at the time of BD was (so my friend thought) his BEST friend, and that there are also a few other significant personal (with his W) and marital issues that create some extra stressors on the marriage not present in my own. Finally, in terms of timeline, BD for him "I want to separate/divorce" was several months prior to discovery of the A (whereas for me the two were contemporaneous and, in fact, I have not yet gotten the "I want to split" by my W-- hinted and said she's close, but not recently and never with any finality)

I've described previously how my friend has pretty much deferred to and even enabled his WW from the very beginning. He found religion (legitimately, too, not as some gimmick) shortly after his W indicated she wanted to split, and his position is that he needs to be as loving and tolerant as possible towards everyone, and ESPECIALLY his W to whom he sees himself as owing some solemn duty even though she has committed adultery. He has, he has told me, put her in a hierarchy of loyalty in his worldview just below God and above his children. He is convinced that if she needs to "explore her sexuality and find her own way" that he should do nothing and say nothing about it. He has never established any boundaries against her doing so and pretty much instantly forgave her (less than a day) after finding out about the latest A with his friend, and told her "you know by now there is nothing I can't forgive you for"... thinking that this would help the situation. Throughout, he remained completely accessible to her, basically a live-in husband servant even though they were sleeping separately, and continued to do so after discovery of the A. Never raised any objections when she would take off, leaving him with the kids to go visit her AP a thousand miles away. They did actually physically separate about a month or so ago, but he has continued to "Be there" for her as fix it man, babysitter for kids, etc. He has also allowed her to continue her position in HIS family business, which business has considerably enriched her and allowed her to do things like, say, jet off for two weeks here and there to see her AP. (For color, she is not integral to the business and could be easily jettisoned with little or no impact on the bottom line.)

Now, I think it is finally starting to hit home with him. Not wanting to "Create an ugly scene", he agreed to an uncontested no-fault divorce (same lawyer for both of them) with no mention of the admitted and VERY proveable-in-court adultery even though that, in our state, would pretty much get him out of any support and prolly also get him the kids. Now, with only a month to go before things are final, his W up and tells him she's going to move several states away (to where her AP is)... AND TAKE THE KIDS WITH HER. Their kids (girls) are both younger than ours, at an impressionable age (6 and 12) and were just starting to really forge a bond with their father (my friend). The girls also, apparently, at least according to mutual friends in our circle whose own kids know the girls, are REALLY broken up about the situation and telling their friends so, even as both my friend (and his WW) continue to tell everyone that "THe children are really handling this well."

I had some hope that he was coming around when he announced his plans to get out of town for two to three months to "create some distance". Turns out, however, he is only doing so to "get used to" the dynamic of living so far away from his girls.

W. T. F. ???!!!?!?

I know I have not handled my own sitch particularly well, but my buddies situation just boggles my mind. I want to grab him by his lapels and yell "Wake up Dude! Fight for yourself and your frikking kids who are going to end up being raised by your train-wreck of a wife!!!" But I cant say anything. He has basically told me point blank that he doesn't agree with my take and now refuses to talk to me about any of that. (Though he has softened a BIT the past couple of weeks as the realities hit home, and has begun to discuss the generalities of it with me.) The rest of his friends in our circle are similarly flummoxed. It's ended two or three other friendships to this point.

This guy is a really good and loyal friend, and someone I would definitely trust to have my back, but... his worldview and mindset, wherever they are coming from, are not helping him. It's even tempting for me to say his advice to me in the early days of my own sitch were bad and hurt my prospects... But ironically I think, even as in hindsight I would not have listened to him and would have taken a different approach, that the course I did take (listening to him at the time) has ultimately put me in a better position mid and longer term than I would have been. In any event, I would love to help him (he is the one who introduced my to DB-ing books, oddly enough) but don't know how. And I am at peace enough in my own circle to know that I can't "save people", but, yeesh. [censored] to see it.

Doesn't help my own sitch any either, I am sure, for my own W to see her bff effectively getting away with murder at my friends' expense. Ah well, if that's who my W wants to be, ultimately, I'll want nothing to do with her.

[LH19]

Jim,

Are there any males in your group that are willing to stand up to their partners and not let them completely walk all over them?

Man, you need some new friends!

[Holding]

Hey Jim, just wanted to follow up on your earlier comment to me about my S10. Thanks for the info and insight. I know this is an important sitch for S10, but I think it may have to go on the backburner for a while until the D is settled. I'd love to be able to interface offline, but not sure how we could do that.