I am not seeing things in black and white and in no point in my post did I call her weak, so please do not make assumptions about me. One of the reasons I was drawn to her thread initially is because she has a solid head on her shoulders and a positive, bright outlook overall. I just don't see how it serves any of us to try and stick up for one another, and I think it actually creates a divide between posters. We are all here for the same reasons--to not only show support for one another, but to offer advice. Then we are free to accept or reject that advice as it suits us.
The assumption that I had frequent interactions with my H because we have children is only partly true. The last several months before he came back around we had very minimal contact and I did not see him. We only had occasional businesslike emails about the kids and bills, and otherwise I avoided seeing him and stayed in my room when he picked up and dropped off the kids. I even had a bday party for one of the kids with my family and friends and told him that he was not to come. Again, IMO when the S is wayward/selfish I think it is important to have strong boundaries until they show you a person that can be trusted. I fully acknowledge I am more extreme with some of my advise and that is partly because 1. that is what worked for me, and 2. I have not yet read of a sitch here where the LBS was able to nice/friend their way back to the M. When that happens, often the S loses respect and may pull back again.
Leah, your sitch is different than mine in several ways, however that does not change my advice. I haven't read DR in several years however I recall MWD discusses the importance of writing out lists of goals; that is why I listed those 5 questions in my last post. Perhaps that could help you organize your thoughts/feelings by making a list of goals, despite what he is doing and saying? I don't want him to get in the drivers seat and then you lose site of what is important to you; you are still vulnerable after all you have been through.
It can be confusing and a whirlwind of emotions when they start coming back around and it is hard to know what to do. I can certainly relate to that and I remember it very clearly! On the one hand there is this a sense of hope and relief that they are coming back around, however it is mixed with fear and ambivalence because we know this person can (and has) really hurt us. That is why I think they need so slowly earn their way back, even if it takes longer, which can also give them more time to think and get their head back on straight.
I actually do not think he has any "bad" or "hidden" intentions. He may not even fully understand what his intentions are at this point! It does seem as if he is second guessing himself, that he misses you, and that he wants desperately to try and reconnect with you. I can only imagine it would be very tempting to see him and know where this is going. You have proven without a doubt that the pursuer-distancer dynamic is in full effect. In some ways, you have him where you want him. Not to play games, but I do think of the our goals as a LBS is to keep ourselves in the distancer role.
Here is the thing though, you have all the time in the world! If you see him this weekend, or next, or next month, well just make sure it is under your terms. Every poster that is piecing has said that they should have taken is slower and not one (that I have come across) has said that they should have moved faster. There are so many, many layers of complicated history and emotions now, that naturally it takes time for them to unfold.
So my most important piece of advise to you is protect yourself and your heart from this man. Teach him how you deserve to be treated. As tempting as it can be (and I know it was for me) to start seeing him and possibly even reconciling, it has to be done with armor on. The armor is not only there to protect you, but to show him that you value yourself more than to just let him walk back in. He has to show you someone that is worthy of you now.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Just for the record, I don't see you as "attacking me", although I admit I was pretty raw last night and it stung. That's not to say I didn't need to hear it though. The value to me in a place like this is the very essence of what can sometimes be painful- the TRUTH. It's so much easier to see someone heading for disaster, when you're standing as a bystander rather than driving the boat into the iceberg.
I also don't see Cadence as "defending me" so much as I see her coming from the position of having no children together, and virtually no reason to ever run across our S again. I think that is frightening to both she and I, in thinking about that possibility.
We need to all be reminded (and I think this is a perfect example-this conversation we are having the last 24 hours) that every person who makes their way to this place is hurting, as is most every other person we see every day. We have no idea of people's struggles, just b/c they put on a brave front. Although it's true we all bring that pain to this table from different walks of life and situations, the common denominator for us all is HURT. We all have so much to offer each other, and I believe, for the most part, it's a safe place to fall for each of us.
Thank you both for putting so much time and thought into your posts. (And to Ownit- who wouldn't even chime in on here last night, but called me on the phone and talked me off the ledge too!) What blessings to have friends like all of you.
Usually the things we need to hear the most are the very things we are struggling to convince ourselves to do because they FEEL right, but usually are counter-productive to our end goal.
To be continued......
M-60 H-51 M-14 years BD 12/26/16 S 1/1/17
"First the pain, then the rising." Glennon Doyle Melton
PS- I kind of hate to hit my IC with all this in the morning- I think I'll make some notes to give her a timely re-cap, so I don't end up catching her up and using my whole hour. I'm going to need some of her wise guidance, and not let myself talk the whole time. There we go again with ALL. THESE. WORDS. Too bad Jeep's not around anymore to say all this ^ with one of his clipped sentences. LOL.
M-60 H-51 M-14 years BD 12/26/16 S 1/1/17
"First the pain, then the rising." Glennon Doyle Melton
Right now I don't have goals for the current M, nor goals for a D. Right now my goal for us is a brand new, better, stronger, more communicative new relationship. I'm not re-committed to the R, and I don't know how he feels about re-commitment either, but as long as I know I'M not committed, it doesn't really matter to me if he is or is not.
2. What are you doing from your side to achieve those goals? I'm learning to be MORE- in everything. What I mean by that is more fun for myself, (and less negative self-talk), more spontaneity in life in general (less planning and more go by the seat of my pants, spur of the moment, open for new things), more open to bigger love, (and I don't mean with him- certainly he'd be included in that, but specifically I mean bigger love with my children and their partners-which I've re-discovered since S), bigger love with my mom and sister, bigger love with my step-children, bigger love with his family (and less resentment about their closeness that at times can feel exclusive to me), just a bigger heart for people and less fear of rejection. I'm reading everything I can get my hands on to help me achieve these goals. I'm in IC as often as she can book me. Continuing to read this forum, and see how other people learn and grow from this same type of heart-ache.
3. What are you communicating to your H about what you want?
Absolutely nothing.
4. What do you need from him in order to have an R with him? ... Or do you simply want him to desire you ....
A desire on his part to begin a new relationship with me. Explanation of who OW is, and what role she plays in his life, and what plans he has for NC with her. That's a given (for me.) A welcome mat at our home in NJ, and the step-son's friend GONE to live in his own place. Of course, him to desire me, but more than that.... because once that need is satisfied, there has to be more. I want to see a desire in him to enjoy being with me the way we used to enjoy each other, before things fell apart.
5. How are you communicating those needs?
Not at all.... (yet).
These are my answers as honestly as I know them, Blu. Clearly, I need to communicate them to him at some point. IMO, though, these are not things that can be discussed openly and honestly except face to face.
M-60 H-51 M-14 years BD 12/26/16 S 1/1/17
"First the pain, then the rising." Glennon Doyle Melton
I am not seeing things in black and white and in no point in my post did I call her weak, so please do not make assumptions about me.
I assume you are talking to me? Hi Blu, my name is Cadence.
I didn't accuse you of these things. The first was presented as my perception (which is fallible and limited to me), and the second is totally out of left field. By stating that I felt that Leah was strong, I was not implying that you said she was weak.
Originally Posted By: BluWave
I just don't see how it serves any of us to try and stick up for one another, and I think it actually creates a divide between posters.
I seem to have really offended you and I apologize for that. I meant no harm by offering what I saw about Leah's situation. I'm sorry if you saw it that way as it was not intended.
At the same time, I feel like I'm having to defend myself and I'm not sure why, which feels incredibly divisive and unwelcoming.
Originally Posted By: Leahsue
I also don't see Cadence as "defending me" so much as I see her coming from the position of having no children together, and virtually no reason to ever run across our S again. I think that is frightening to both she and I, in thinking about that possibility.
Yes, exactly. I read the post and thought "Well, how is she supposed to see the consistency from him without opening up to communication that will not happen otherwise?"
A few of us have been talking about vanishers and not sharing children and how it feels like more of a hurdle because there is absolutely no information coming in and you do not get to interact regularly.
Essentially, the risk feels like if you don't respond to what looks like tentative feelers, you may never know what the intention was. And that feels very frustrating, because there is no way to judge someone's intentions in the early stages. After so much pain, who wants to be open to something less than clear-cut? Of course it would be preferable to sit back and wait for consistency, but we also have to remember that everyone's circumstances are different. And I really don't see what you could have done differently if your goal is to potentially save your M.
This is all that I was trying to express.
Quote:
Although it's true we all bring that pain to this table from different walks of life and situations, the common denominator for us all is HURT. We all have so much to offer each other, and I believe, for the most part, it's a safe place to fall for each of us.
Hi all Think we might be in danger of all agreeing vehemently! We all respond from our own experience of this horrific stuff - Blu has wisdom from knowing what reconnection feels like, and how hard piecing is. Cadence knows the limited opportunity to communicate and the desire to do it while keeping your soul safe. I know...gosh, not much...the pain of a vanisher and the uncomfortable truth of what severe depression looks like in an MLC spouse so everyone hurts.
Leah, your goals (esp 2.) look great and they were great questions from Blu.And fab that you're seeing your IC.
I guess I'm wondering what MORE Leah would like to do...what would be the fun, spontaneous, open way to respond? About what you want rather than thinking about what he may or may not bring to the party?
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
Right now I don't have goals for the current M, nor goals for a D. Right now my goal for us is a brand new, better, stronger, more communicative new relationship. I'm not re-committed to the R, and I don't know how he feels about re-commitment either, but as long as I know I'M not committed, it doesn't really matter to me if he is or is not.
2. What are you doing from your side to achieve those goals? I'm learning to be MORE- in everything. What I mean by that is more fun for myself, (and less negative self-talk), more spontaneity in life in general (less planning and more go by the seat of my pants, spur of the moment, open for new things), more open to bigger love, (and I don't mean with him- certainly he'd be included in that, but specifically I mean bigger love with my children and their partners-which I've re-discovered since S), bigger love with my mom and sister, bigger love with my step-children, bigger love with his family (and less resentment about their closeness that at times can feel exclusive to me), just a bigger heart for people and less fear of rejection. I'm reading everything I can get my hands on to help me achieve these goals. I'm in IC as often as she can book me. Continuing to read this forum, and see how other people learn and grow from this same type of heart-ache.
3. What are you communicating to your H about what you want?
Absolutely nothing.
4. What do you need from him in order to have an R with him? ... Or do you simply want him to desire you ....
A desire on his part to begin a new relationship with me. Explanation of who OW is, and what role she plays in his life, and what plans he has for NC with her. That's a given (for me.) A welcome mat at our home in NJ, and the step-son's friend GONE to live in his own place. Of course, him to desire me, but more than that.... because once that need is satisfied, there has to be more. I want to see a desire in him to enjoy being with me the way we used to enjoy each other, before things fell apart.
5. How are you communicating those needs?
Not at all.... (yet).
These are my answers as honestly as I know them, Blu. Clearly, I need to communicate them to him at some point. IMO, though, these are not things that can be discussed openly and honestly except face to face.
Leah, I think this is a great start. And I so appreciate your honesty :-) There are no easy answers in love! There is something to be said about organizing your thoughts and feelings on paper (or computer, haha). That way when H comes at you--text, call, or is unpredictable--you have more preparation of how you want to respond. I recall when my H started coming around initially, I did not know what to do or say. Sometimes he would simply be temp checking me and other times he would tell me that he wanted to see me, talk to me, missed me, etc, and I was so confused! Here I was still trying to master DB and the 37 rules, so when this came up, I was honestly flabbergasted at how to respond. It started to feel so different than how he had been for the last 10 months, but I wanted to keep my composure.
I am out of town so I don't have a copy of DR, but I do recall her talking about writing down goals in the book. I also think that Psysara addressed this in her posts. If I recall, the goals are 1. things that are in your locus of control, and 2. things with measurable results. The idea is that we can still have goals for anything that only addresses our own part in the R. Some of them can be very small and simple and some can be larger and only measured over time. There is also something empowering about the personal goals because they are for us and the focus is not on them. We are trying to remain detached by opening up the idea of letting them back and it's a delicate balance.
So if I were to answer my own questions at the time my H started coming back around, here is what I might have written down:
For example #1. What are your goals with this M? or D?
1. To continue to not initiate contact, however when H initiates contact, to be responsive, listen, and validate only for the next several weeks. 2. During communication with H, to avoid highly emotional topics, heavy R talks, and if I feel triggered to allow myself time and space before answering, including telling him that I am not ready to talk about that right now. 3. Goal is to start attending MC weekly, if H agrees and continues to want to work on any type of R with me. 4. That I will not work on piecing or restoring the M with him if he is not willing to attend weekly MC and if he is not consistently showing remorse. 5. To initiate D process if we are not actively piecing by the end of the calendar year.
So I was not organized about writing things down, but these were some of my initial goals that I went by. I think it might have helped me to have lists going, because there were so many times that I was caught off guard or emotionally triggered and then later I would wish that I had responded differently. There are no 37 rules for piecing, however I think the 37 rules do still apply when they initially come back around, because as you say, you are still not sure of his intentions. When in doubt we can never go wrong with letting them pursue us and initiate contact, listening and validating, and creating safe boundaries for ourselves.
Not sure any if any of that helps, but it's just an idea to help you when you are feeling stuck!
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Thanks, Blu! I've printed out your post, pulled the old worn DB book back out, and also Sandi's rules. Crash course before the weekend! I agreed to see him this weekend, but told him I have a few conditions, which he readily agreed to.
I just had a GREAT sessions with my IC. She had a good point. When I was telling her about the playful afternoon we had last week, I said how good it had felt to just enjoy each other without trying to figure out all the hard stuff, especially without a counselor to guide us in that discussion. She said you won't believe how many couples sit right here, struggling to stay married, because they've lost that playfulness. She said I actually give homework to a lot of them to try and bring some of that back, because that's what helps make a marriage work- to still enjoy each other's company. She strongly suggested I use this weekend to be light, have fun, enjoy him, and save the hard stuff for MC, if we get to that point. No need to try and drag it all out and solve it over a three day visit, with no professional help. Plus, if the weekend isn't what we both want in terms of beginning a new relationship, not sure the junk from the last 8 months would matter.
I know there are going to be hundreds of opinions about how to handle the weekend. (There already are, between this forum, and my close friends and sister.) In the end, I just have to put them all together and pick out a plan that works for me.
Now if he CANCELS, then that's a whole new story line! I'm not even going to go there for now.
Moving forward to better days, no matter what the weekend brings!
M-60 H-51 M-14 years BD 12/26/16 S 1/1/17
"First the pain, then the rising." Glennon Doyle Melton
