MLC, thanks. Really, thanks for taking the time because I know after I kinda called you out that it really woulda been completely reasonable for you to just avoid my threads. So thanks for sticking around. I did overlook the compliment in your previous post... so, thanks.
Difficult evening tonight. Getting ready for bed (our stuff is both still in the MBR) she wanted to talk, so I said "okay, talk". I pretty much just listened. Nutshell-- she says she missed talking to me the past four days, that she felt cut off and shunned, but that she understood how i felt. She says that she had done alot of thinking Sunday and Monday and that she didn't like the pain she was causing, to me, to herself, potentially to the kids and, (she said she knows this is hard for me to hear) to the OM. She also said that those feelings had been growing in her the past few weeks. She said she wanted to break off contact with OM so she could "get things figured out" with us. She said she understands my hurt and anger (I have barely spoken to her for past 5 days and have several times told her "I don't want to be around you or talk to you right now") and that if I need to be on my own now for a while she understands... but that she intends to keep out of contact with OM (Who she says she called Monday to say she couldn't continue the relationship.) She said again that she "effed up big time" by staying in contact with OM, but she continues to say that it was not continuous... that it had been getting progressively less and less, and that the last week leading up to this past Sunday she had "not even intended to contact him at all, and that the straight talk phone she got was only to talk to her bff. This latter, she said,due to bff being pretty much in hiding (absolutely true, btw) from alot of our circle of friends who are very very angry with her after it was revealed that HER (bff's) A with one of our other friends had NOT stopped but had in fact been ongoing or rekindled (depending on who you talk to), continuing the betrayal of MY bff who is playing the role of pushover/enabler in that relationship. [whew!] She (W) says that she doesn't know why she contacted OM again on that phone, just that she found herself doing so and once she did it became easier and easier and she hadn[t even realized how many times she had been in contact with him until i confronted her about phone and she started recounting.
Anyhoo, she says she now wants to try to work on our issues, that she knows I probably don't feel like doing so right now, that [again] she is "sorry she hurt and betrayed me", that she "understands" why I would not trust her and why I would feel disrespected and betrayed. She said she did not "harbor any anger" towards me anymore about my neglect of her (although she says she did initially in all of this) although it still does frustrate her that the issue of the A/OM seems to overshadow everything else even though she suffered alot and is still in alot of turmoil. (Though she says she "owns that" and realizes she "brought alot of that on herself".)
Finally, she says she would let me track her phone, and would keep her phone unlocked and let me look at it anytime. The burner phone she says she pitched she also says she kept no paperwork or account info for for me to confirm it was gone and that she couldn't remember the number having only had it one week. I reminded her that she had also used phone to contact bff and that bff would surely have the phone number , to which she responded she would "try to get it". (We'll see.) She promised not to install any extra messaging apps and to let me look at her app store and keep phone unlocked to be sure. I said little but did mention that a call to OM would have been alot more meaningful had she done it in my presence and that maybe another call would be in order. She said she had thought of that but that it was very hard for her to hurt other people and that she really didn't want to have to do that again AND that she thought doing so would make her want to call him again after that to make sure he was okay. She also said she was afraid of how ugly the conversation might get if both he and i were on phone together. She basically begged not to have to do so and described in pretty significant detail how she says that conversation went.
And that was pretty much it. A few comments like "sometimes I wonder why you still want me" and such, but nothing earthshattering. At the end she asked if I wanted her to leave (we had both sat down on the MBR bed while she talked) and I said "no, I'm actually going to take the Guest Bed tonight because I like the new mattress in there (very true, actually--the MBR mattress is, no kidding, 25 years old), I sleep better on it, and my neck is sore tonight (also both true). Not to mention the MBR bed is trashed again. Prolly looked a little weak by not claiming the MBR but I hopefully saved the sitch by "claiming" the new mattress and, TBH, my neck (I have a fusion at C7) is really biting me tonight and I hate to have my Saturday's ruined by neck or back pain.
So that's where we are. A couple bigger crumbs thrown at me by W, but her resistance to calling the OM a second time is obviously troubling, and any attempt to do so after tonight would basically be worthless as any kind of barometer since, if she is obfuscating, she will simply be able to contact OM and stage a response.
In sum, don't really see that we are in all that different a position than we were previously, though good to see that my silent treatment has been having an affect.There were quite a few tears but, of course, that's one of a woman's greatest weapons
And let me just add that I am reporting all of this in the spirit of providing "factual background". I am not trying to make any editorial statement nor am I taking any position on the factual or emotional veracity of my W's statements here. This is just "what she is saying now".
BTW, line dancing tonight alot of fun. Stayed out a little later than I intended. kinda surprised W was still up when i came in.
Last edited by Cadet; 07/28/1707:49 PM. Reason: Combine posts
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Your w had valid reasons for her marital dissatisfaction that's just not relevant now,IF you are owning it and IF she wants to be m.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
The biggest thing that jumps out to me in your W's talk is how she protects the OM's feelings. She is concerned about the pain she could cause for OM? She doesn't want to give her own H the assurance he needs by calling OM in front of him.........b/c she doesn't want to hurt OM's feelings? These are very telling signs that she is faking the whole thing, just like the last time you caught her. In fact, the whole thing about the second phone sounds too much like the first one.
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Anyhoo, she says she now wants to try to work on our issues, that she knows I probably don't feel like doing so right now, that [again] she is "sorry she hurt and betrayed me", that she "understands" why I would not trust her and why I would feel disrespected and betrayed. She said she did not "harbor any anger" towards me anymore about my neglect of her (although she says she did initially in all of this) although it still does frustrate her that the issue of the A/OM seems to overshadow everything else even though she suffered alot and is still in alot of turmoil. (Though she says she "owns that" and realizes she "brought alot of that on herself".)
I hope you will take time to think about what you need from her in order to trust her again. This is the perfect time to do it. You don't have to give a boundary, just tell her about how transparency works and why it is necessary. But one tip here.........do NOT tell her about the surveillance. You need that to remain concealed b/c having at least one source that she is not aware, will tell you if she is being trustworthy or not. As long as she has the option to control whatever app she is using, then there is too much room for doubt. And, I suggest you go for a few days before looking at her apps. When you do check, choose at time when she least expects it.
I think she is trying to secure her place in the home. She has only been thinking two days, so just wait till the craving begins to contact OM. She'll say she doesn't know what made her contact him! Maybe you should require her to read about the addiction in affairs and how it works like a drug and....what it takes to break the addictive hold.
You have started turning the dynamics in this relationship. Don't get too chatty with her about your feelings. Continue to hold a protective distance for a while. She needs to see that you won't cave so easily this time around. If you give her the chance to work on R, then she needs to know what will be required. It won't be so easy for her this time, and you won't accept less.
Give it a few days and see how she's talking and acting, then you can decide what you want to do. It's important that she is committed to doing whatever is necessary to save the M. And, you may have to tell her, that if you decide to give it another chance, it won't be on "her" terms. Not that you will be a dictator or anything, but you aren't going to sway to her same old song & dance. You will lead this dance. KWIM?
Good job in playing it cool and not jumping at her words. When her behavior lines up with her words.....in a reasonable length of time, then you can start believing that she is seriously trying to do the right thing in her MR. (That's FYI only). If she commits and you feel satisfied she is do what you've asked (and none of this business of doing it "her" way), you can begin working more on the piecing. She just has to get this affair behind her.
P.S. I hope she will begin to see her BFF for the enabler she really is.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Many, many things,trouble me here, most obvious of which is her reluctance to "hurt" the OM further.As her H of 20 years, I know her well... or,at least the sweet tender hearted girl she used to be. She was, in fact, always very hesitanr, to a fault even, to hurt anyone, or,even to disappoint or say "no" to someone. Maybe empathy, maybe cowardice, maybe a bit od both. Sometimes this can and has led to greater pain for people she's known, myself included. I experienced this well firsthand when we were dating and she wasn't ready, and I got strung along a bit before figuring it out and then us taking a break. Whatever, the idea that she would not want to make a simple phone call to a grown man who surely knew what he was getting into messing with his friends wife and could easily have anticipated any potential "hurt", or that she would value this OM'S feelings more than mine or her marriage, is one that bothers me a LOT. (She says, "you KNOW how hard it is for me to think I've hurt somebody". And I actually have some insight into this ... one of the convos I overheard between her and bff, though partly unintelligable, was to the effect of bff asking W "are you going to cut contact with om while trying to work things out with jim", and w responding something like "I have already hurt jim, I don't want to have,to hurt OM, too.) Whatever, I still find the concept repugnant, though, as she says, if she HAS finally cUT the cord, she HAS finally "hurt everyone". But she's obviously still way too conflicted, at best,candidate still too committed to OM at worst.
The bff is a BIG problem. Lifetime friend, VERY wayward. Tell each other everything and strong mutually reinforcing support. Most troubling, bff (my own bff's separated W, remember) just got outed as having been continuing an A with ANOTHER mutual close friend, which affair she had SWORN was over. That situation has disturbing parallels to my own, and I can't help but wonder, perhaps irrationally, if Ws bff (who is saying she has "never been happier")is cheerleafing my own W to stray ("see, you can be like me") even though W says that bff told her to NOT have the A, and I DID hear bff once telling her "you really should cut contact if you are going to go to counsEllington to work on MR" aND also her speaking in neutral terms vis a vis me and OM. But still. My own W seems clearly okay with bff having this A with my friends other good friend (in her defense, my bff released her to do such things, but the betrayal by our other friend was a bit much-- it has resulted in a few broken friendships.) Anyway, clearly a very bad influence-- very jaded view of M and long term commitment, three tome loser in terms of having affairs, heavy drinker and regular pot smoker, sometimes enabler of my W's own A, whatever lip service she may say otherwise, and now, apparently, irritated with me for being "controlling". Oh, and she has apparently shared with her new beautiful (a college friend and frat brother of both mine and my own bff) lots of pics of my W with OM (presumably because that relationship is the anticipated resolution for my W?) which I heard her telling my W that "it's still weird for him to see pics of you with OM." Bad. Influence. (For color, these two convos were from about two months ago.)
Anyway, I got problems. I can insist o some things but NC with bff will prolly never happen.
I do intend to confront OM and warn him off of any further advances on Monday l, when I know with absolute certainty where he will be in the evening.
Oh, and one more thing, Sandi...
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Maybe you should require her to read about the addiction in affairs and how it works like a drug and....what it takes to break the addictive hold.
Dont suppose you could point me in the direction of any such resources, could you? Our sometime MC is actually very smart in this area, but dont know if W trusts her enough at this point. If W could be convinced to go to her for IC, that would be ideal, but dont know if she would. I have gotten impression from MC in my own IC sesssions that my W is not exactly eager and open and forthcoming, and in fact quite likely the opposite ("closed") in the couple of IC sessions she has had. MC has basically said she seems pretty resistant to having full-length sessions and to opening up when she has the shorter sessions-- this as an indicator of her interest in the MC in general.
Last edited by Cadet; 07/31/1708:31 AM. Reason: Combine posts
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
maybe you don't need to get bogged down so much in your w's history or her personality & her background, etc, and what you think she thinks/feels...
Because you said you don't think NC with OM will ever happen. Is that accurate?
How does that make you feel? I know you want to save the m. I get that.
And You have said you are willing to separate.
Bottom line is, Is that^^^ really true? Can you see how it might help things, to sep?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Because you said you don't think NC with OM will ever happen. Is that accurate?
I dont think ive ever said THAT, and, if I have, it was a misprint. I honestly don't think she has any future with OM... he's just... he just doesn't have a whole lot to offer outside of the mystique of the affair. I have on a couple of occasions said I should nominate him for "Right Place at the Right Time Poster Child", and I meant that. My wife could do so, so, so, so much better... trust me (And I am not just talking about me--heck, I prolly don't deserve to get her back either, all things considered). If she TRULY ends up thinking this guy is her soul mate and decides to spend the rest of her life with him?... Then she is assuredly not someone I would want to be with. I just really don't see that relationship enduring, especially if it becomes a "real world" R and not just a secretive A. And that is looking at it objectively, not just as the jilted, jealous husband. The guy literally checks one "box" with her, and that is that he pays alot of attention to her and gave her the compliments and attention her husband (me) denied her for the past 8 to 10 years. He literally has almost nothing else going for him.
I think what I HAVE said, at least recently, is that I don't know how I would ever be able to TRUST that NC with OM has happened. She could actually do it (and she may even have actually done so, now) but... don't know how I can/could/should trust that as things currently stand. I'd almost need her to come "begging" to me (and there's no ego in me in saying that... just think I'd need to see some more humility and remorse than I have). There's a lot of other factors and overlays, too, but.. there's just not a lot of trust there for her in my mind and heart right now. Like basically none
Some quick kudos to Sandi2 who was right. Again.
Beach trip my W took back during July 4 week directly after our family trip, where she met up with bff for two nights did, as Sandi said she suspected based solely on my somewhat sketchy account, apparently include OM (nearly certainly). Big stupid idiot posted a picture on his FB page from the day my W was up there of him out in front of boardwalk beach bar just TWO BLOCKS down the boardwalk from my W was staying, or at least supposedly staying, with her bff and one other girl. Conclusive proof? No, but.... come on.
Sandi is just too dead-on accurate for words.
And this is just a paper cut. Doesn't change anything since I already knew W hadn't been keeping to NC and since I had sort of just let myself assume she had seen OM up there, but...
Nice job Sandi. I will never doubt you again...
Last edited by Cadet; 07/31/1708:30 AM. Reason: Combine posts
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Confronted my former friend, the OM. Alost came to blows, though he was definitely the most unhinged of the two of us, which was good. Let W know after the fact since I knew she'd eventually find out anyway. THAT was an interesting convo, with her initial chief concern being WON the OM was "hurt again" by my actions. Later though the talk turned to just how effed up the whole situation is, how destructive the affair has been and how many it has hurt. This all really seemed to hit home for her. She hung her head, cried, and shook for a long while.
For me, it was both liberating and sad. I'd needed to have that confrontation for a while, but the close reminder of the destroyed friendships brought some of that old pain bubbling back to the surface.
Well, I think I may have ended my marriage by doing what I did last night. Why couldn't I just frikking let it go. I felt like I needed to do that, but I handled it, I think, really, really badly, and my timing, in terms of my MR, sucked.
Say a prayer for me folks.
Last edited by Cadet; 08/01/1708:53 AM. Reason: Combine posts
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Its just too hard. I can't do this. Sorry. I love her too much and its not a healthy love. I almost "need" her and that's not good. Cant put myself through more multiple months of this. It just needs to be over.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Its just too hard. I can't do this. Sorry. I love her too much and its not a healthy love. I almost "need" her and that's not good. Cant put myself through more multiple months of this. It just needs to be over.
Were you drinking when you wrote that last post? It is not consistent with what you have been posting and I used to do that back when I was drinking.
It gets easier, it really does, in fact I would say that a year out for me it's easy (not just easier), and is a non-issue.
If you weren't drinking, then you need to do some serious GAL. What your yearning for is companionship, and that is a legitimate feeling when your "partner" is no longer there. It helps a lot to have other people around that you can confide in, enjoy spending time with, etc. Get out with others, friends or family, doesn't matter. Invite people over for barbecues, poker, video games, doesn't matter, just insert people into your life, it will lesson the loss of your partner.
You can do this Jim, but you have to go through this, you can't skip it.
M - 9 1/2 years 5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA 10/31/16 - We sold house 01/10/18 - D Finalized
, to which she responded she would "try to get it". (We'll see.) 
She promised not to install any extra messaging apps and to let me look at her app store and keep phone unlocked to be sure. I said little but did mention that a call to OM would have been alot more meaningful had she done it in my presence and that maybe another call would be in order. She said she had thought of that but that it was very hard for her to hurt other people and that she really didn't want to have to do that again AND that she thought doing so would make her want to call him again after that to make sure he was okay. She also said she was afraid of how ugly the conversation might get if both he and i were on phone together. She basically begged not to have to do so and described in pretty significant detail how she says that conversation went.
