I know weekends are low traffic here, but I could really use some opinions if anyone is reading.
Spoke to my L yesterday. My options are: respond to their claims (L said I'd deny all of them) and then counterfile, where I get to tell my version of events, OR to try to respond awkwardly to their last paltry offer with a dollar amount.
My L assures me that if it goes to court, all of the evidence I have that this was all his choice, and he created a hostile environment will be admissible. L laughed at their claim that I'd left and stopped paying the mortgage, saying "They neglected to mention that he's LIVING THERE", so that makes me feel better.
He tells me court will be expensive. But if I counterfile, it's possible that could cause them to make me an offer.
I'm not sure what to do, here.
Part of me is craving the idea that I'd be heard if I counter-filed. He'd have to read my story.
I am under no impression that it would impact him, but he is so self-focused and driven to make sure that I'm the only one who is impacted negatively by his own choices that it is absurd. His claims seem to make sure he recovers every dollar he spent, and though he has my contributions included after he lists what he contributed, he then asks the judge to award him what he spent in full, and if there is anything left over, to split it between us. He also seems to imply he wants the court to ask me to pay his attorney's fees, as well as the costs to sell the home.
Even if I did think that his proposal was fair, there won't be anything left over when the house was sold. We bought a fixer upper and it was on the market for a long time. We planned to live there for 5-7 years and make upgrades a little bit at a time.
So I could respond, explaining my side of things, and include the "offers" he made where he tried to trick me into signing away my interest in the property, as well as his other offers, none of which approach the amount that I contributed. I can, hopefully, make it clear that the short duration of home ownership was his choice, that he ended the relationship, and seems to want only me to bear the financial costs of the choices he made.
So he's still focused on punishing me and I'm still not sure why. It's clear he's still irrational and angry.
I know I can't say for sure, but I am more certain this is a MLC. He was always a kind and sweet man, who loved me a lot but also repressed a great deal of pain. And I think it all emerged, and he decided that I was at fault for how he felt. I think the debt of the house purchase was a trigger for him, though both of us were in better financial shape owning the home than not owning the home, because we also got rental income for our separate properties.
It's clear that the man that I remember is gone, possibly for good, and has been replaced by this irrational punitive person. I'm certain he is still arrogant, thinking that I'm delaying a sale so we can get back together. That's not true. Thinking of that house causes me feelings of trauma; I don't think there's any going back in the short term. In reality, I just want a fair offer.
However, I did enjoy being with him. My family is absolutely shocked, and seemed to be holding onto hope we'd work it out, because they saw how happy I was. So I also want to protect any possibility of, perhaps, someday working through this, if the previous version of him ever returns.
So I also struggle with counterfiling, as I know that one of the reasons he needs to get away from me so badly is to avoid feeling shame. Unfortunately, he was taught by his narc mother that men cannot be angry and still be good people, and he is still holding onto that value very tightly. I believe he sacrificed our relationship because otherwise he'd have to face that he has a great deal of anger, so he has to get rid of the evidence. Whereas I feel his anger is totally justifiable, given how his parents failed him. I don't agree that it is okay for it to be projected onto me, though. Counter-filing would be putting his actions in black and white, thus increasing his shame.
Ugh. I don't know what to do. I don't want to take his money and not sell the home; I just wanted a reasonable offer. Not getting one makes it look like I'm delaying, and I never was.
Cadence, everyone loses in litigation. There is just nothing worth battling for here. My suggestion, have your attorney write a comprehensive letter explaining the flaws in their logic and make your best offer. If there is a settlement push for a dismissal with prejudice (meaning he can't refile and you don't have an adjudication "on your record").
If he still doesn't bite, tell your attorney to hang back and let him burn money proving his case. He's the plaintiff which means he has the burden of proof. Unless you are going to add a new cause of action against him you can deny his claims and put him to his proof without the need to bring your own claim.
You could also push for mediation now or later to try to come to a quick resolution with an impartial. In most jurisdictions it is mandatory to go through some sort of alternative dispute resolution before a trial anyway.
There has to be a basis for an award of attorney fees either based on contract or statute. Has he indicated the source of that?
It's going to be ok. Try not to let this take you down or be the focus of your life. If possible, think of it as a nuisance.
Of course you are the bad guy. He feels empty and broken inside and that must be your fault. It can't possibly be him, right.
Sorry you're having a rough time of it with the legalities Cadence. Looking back I realise I was pretty lucky with how our D unfolded. I think XH was so keen to dash out of the M and start a new life and family with OW, he was pretty reasonable.
However, things didn't start out that way. Initially he wanted us just to agree some kind of simple split and he suggested some figures which (for me) were ludicrously below what a normal settlement was likely to look like. He then got a L himself and became much more reasonable. What seemed to help us was 'normal formulae' in our kind of situation.
Our M was a little too long to be classed as short and in the UK, the norm for that situation is to take total assets, each carve off what you came into the R with, and divide the rest 50/50. We don't have kids together. During the M we did see a big rise in assets (and XH regarded these as 'his') but they got split 50/50 in the end. Ours was a collaborative divorce and reasonably pleasant - mostly through the L's, but with a little direct contact too.
It helped my situation that XH's L was a city L and really expensive. She told him that a contested D could cost up to 60k and he was running scared of high L bills. In the end, I think my L bills were around 5k.
What I would say is try and let go of the need for him to see 'your side' and focus on what would be acceptable to you and bring matters to a reasonable conclusion. Also, it can be good to 'sit' with things for a little while before responding - and posting here for sure is a good idea. At one point, I wanted to cite OW, and I wanted to get the considerable funds he spent on visiting her (long haul) factored in - but I let go of that and I don't regret it.
Good luck with things and you will get to the other side of this, I promise :-)
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
I spent the weekend thinking about things. As a way to help me process, I wrote a few different documents trying to get down to the logic and whether I had proof of the statements I was making.
I also went to a concert by myself last night. It's an artist I've always loved and had never gotten to see. It was outside, so that was nice. But the tickets were so expensive I couldn't find anyone who wanted to go. I'm glad I went.
Incidentally, the artist has a famous song with my name and the lyrics are about a woman with troubles happening in her life. I remember just looking up at the clouds as he was singing a certain line in that song and thinking "I always seem to identify with this song. When do I just get to be happy?!"
I've told my family about the possibility of court. I've already had offers that they'll come. I've been joking that I might hire a male model to accompany me.
Originally Posted By: OwnIt
The thing that is stressing me out is that his claims were all facts. "I contributed this much" "She contributed this much" "She moved out and isn't paying". So, OwnIt, when you say let them burn through trying to prove their points, their points are not going to be difficult to prove. They're all true. The case is a giant exercise of omission of all relevant details.
My logic boils down to "Holy cow this was all his choice and why is he trying to unload the financial consequences onto me when it was all his choice?" So my items are a bit less straightforward but no less true.
I've also got evidence of my continued good faith actions and his efforts to trick me into signing my rights to the property away.
I also called our MC, whom we saw for two sessions, since she knows that this was all his choice (he expressed it in counseling. She tried to calm him down and ask him to not make decisions when he's so angry to no avail). I asked if I needed her to write a memo with what she heard, if she could do that and would feel comfortable doing it. I had to leave a voicemail and I'm waiting to hear back.
This doesn't mean I'm going to counter-file, I'm just trying to organize things in my head enough that I know what I'm working with. I think I'm doing some of my attorney's work for him in the process!
Originally Posted By: Sotto
Initially he wanted us just to agree some kind of simple split and he suggested some figures which (for me) were ludicrously below what a normal settlement was likely to look like. He then got a L himself and became much more reasonable.
Mine got a L and is still unreasonable. I don't think he ever told his L "by the way, I'm the one who wants out and to force a sale", so the entitlement for me to shoulder the risk he has introduced is still there.
Boy, I messed up my response to OwnIt. Somehow my text ended up in the quotes. Here's how it was supposed to look:
Originally Posted By: OwnIt
If he still doesn't bite, tell your attorney to hang back and let him burn money proving his case. He's the plaintiff which means he has the burden of proof. Unless you are going to add a new cause of action against him you can deny his claims and put him to his proof without the need to bring your own claim.
The thing that is stressing me out is that his claims were all facts. "I contributed this much" "She contributed this much" "She moved out and isn't paying". So, OwnIt, when you say let them burn through trying to prove their points, their points are not going to be difficult to prove. They're all true. The case is a giant exercise of omission of all relevant details.
My logic boils down to "Holy cow this was all his choice and why is he trying to unload the financial consequences onto me when it was all his choice?" So my items are a bit less straightforward but no less true.
I've also got evidence of my continued good faith actions and his efforts to trick me into signing my rights to the property away.
I also called our MC, whom we saw for two sessions, since she knows that this was all his choice (he expressed it in counseling. She tried to calm him down and ask him to not make decisions when he's so angry to no avail). I asked if I needed her to write a memo with what she heard, if she could do that and would feel comfortable doing it. I had to leave a voicemail and I'm waiting to hear back.
This doesn't mean I'm going to counter-file, I'm just trying to organize things in my head enough that I know what I'm working with. I think I'm doing some of my attorney's work for him in the process!
In a pleading there is normally a fact section, a law section, and a section that applies law to fact.
In an answer, if your jurisdiction has a general denial you can deny generally. If not you have to go point by point and say either admitted or denied.
Somewhere in there is a section that talks about the cause of action (or the claim) he is making against you. There is more to it than I paid this or that. Somewhere he has to be saying we were both jointly obligated on the mortgage, I paid my part, she didn't pay hers, that sort of thing.
Still your lawyer can write a letter and explain the omissions. She couldn't pay her portion because she was forced to move out by his constructive eviction. She had to locate housing elsewhere at a cost of $________. She had to pay movers at a cost of $_____________. At the time of the purchase the parties committed to one another to be in an exclusive relationship and to live together and share the benefits and burdens of the contractual relationship. He unilaterally chose to leave the relationship. But for his actions in leaving the relationship and constructively evicting her by creating a hostile environment, she would not have had to move and locate suitable housing elsewhere. Etc. I think you get my point.
There are ways to deny the basis for a claim without pursuing a counterclaim. These include various defenses. Some examples include:
Hey Own, I stopped by your thread late and it looked like you had great feedback from others, so I didn't comment.
Long journal incoming. I'd love any feedback:
I am continuing on my journey. I am trying to get into a daily writing habit so I can finish my schooling and have options to move away from here. I like it here, but I don't love it. I'd been staying because H's kids had a few more years in school and then we planned to move away. Now there's not anything keeping me here except for school.
I have some wonderful friends here. I went and met some of them last night and had a few hours of fun. I'm starting to feel more receptive to the idea of meeting someone new, but I also don't trust my people picker so I'm still focusing on me. I stayed pretty close to my friends all night, but it did seem like some guys were trying to get my attention. Someone did the "tap on shoulder then turn back around" move on me. I'm sure that whomever it was did not reside in an appropriate age range for me so I generally ignored it.
(My IC said that I'd made a ton of progress and I could start dating if I wanted, as long as I didn't jump into anything serious. So far I haven't moved forward on that.)
I'm still GAL. My version of that is getting out and socializing when I'd rather stay isolated. With H it was easy to just do couple things or stay in and let him go out with his friends. I'm continuing my diet and it's paying off; I'm starting to feel really good in my body again. I opted to walk home alone last night rather than catch a ride with someone. (My city is very safe, but of course I'm still cautious.) An all-uphill 15 minute walk at midnight appealed to me. I got a cute new haircut that will help it look fuller; I get stress-related hair loss and this is the second time my hair has fallen out because of H abandoning me out of nowhere.
A friend's husband seems to always give me pep talks when I see him. He's offered to find H and beat him up if I wanted (lol) and I told him to hold off on that. He tells me that I'm a catch and that I need to realize that about myself. And when I'm ready, take it slow in finding someone new. He said rushing can net me a new jerk; taking it slow will help me find someone great.
My IC told me that she was seeing some personality disordered behaviors in H, though of course she can't say one way or another. This is both distressing and a relief for me. Distressing because how did I miss it? Relieving because if it's true, I don't have to have doubts.
I've been reading a book on narcissism, and I do believe some of the behaviors fit H. There was idealization, devaluing, and then discarding happening. I think I threatened his supply when his past choices (marrying his crazy ex and having kids with her when she was so obviously looney tunes) and current choices (passive parenting of his kids) were no longer things he could avoid. There was uncertainty whether his son would graduate from high school, and I think H was realizing his passivity may have hurt his kids.
I think that's the real reason he raged and then I was discarded. I think he also had some sort of breakdown and projected himself onto his son (who was being rejected by his wonderful mother, as H was when he was a child) and became hellbent on protecting his son from women. Not the one who was hurting his son, of course. Just me. Even though I had a good rapport with his son and was trying to build him up, H could only see me as someone who wanted to emotionally hurt his kids. I was the symbol of all things evil-engulfing-female, and wanting to try to work through things also leant me a pathetic and clingy character flaw. (His lack of negotiation with the house tell me I am still all of those things. Sigh.)
I feel bad for H. I think we'd also reached new levels of intimacy and vulnerability and I think he just couldn't tolerate that. He wants a wonderful relationship, but he ultimately doesn't want to take risks. That feels wrong to him. He doesn't want to have to give; I think he's got a fantasy woman in his mind who will be his sexy mommy and fulfill all those things he never got from his mom and have no needs of her own. I had no interest in being anything but an adult partner with obligations outside of the relationship, and I think that wasn't a dynamic he was familiar with. Both times he's left me out of the blue, he has been hyper-focused on whether all of his needs are being met. I go from someone he's put on a pedestal (that I can't possibly live up to given that I'm human) to nothing but an object, and he has no concept that to receive what he wants, he must also give.
I assume he is out trying to locate his ideal sexy mommy now, which hurts, but also makes me chuckle because he's in such a state that he's only going to be attracted to/attract messes. Good luck to him.
He expressed to me so many times that he wanted something different than his crazy family. He used to joke about his parents and how they were terrified of change, and so they stayed in a miserable situation for 50 years. When they had opportunities for improvement, they made excuses to not leave their comfort zone. That's what I represented to him; relief and a way to leave the crazy people behind. But when he got out of his comfort zone, guess what he ran back to? Guess who is turning into his parents by trying so hard to run from them without taking responsibility for his past?
I'm still struck by how he couldn't even explain reasons why he was doing what he was doing. He told me that he was unhappy, but that seemed like rewriting history to fit current feelings. (I know I can't say for sure, but he'd offer up to me how happy he was and how lucky he was to have found me all of the time.) Then it was some darkly humorous "sign" from 5 years ago that he overlooked, which was clearly a red flag about my horribleness as a person. Then it was that we'd simply "grown apart" and the reason I moved out and disappeared was because of how "shocked" i was when he broke the totally normal news to me of how we'd grown apart. (Darn, I hate it when I put a tens-of-thousands of dollars of a downpayment on a house to buy with someone, and then discover 6 months later that we'd simply grown apart.) The very nature of the timing demonstrates that it was a slow and mutual growing apart. Sure H.
I still spend time thinking about him, as you can see, but it's more me trying to make sense of the senseless for my own sake. I want to know what red flags I may have missed. I want to know if he's disordered, but I want to know that for me. My IC says I'm an empath, which I think is true.
Something I can't reconcile with H being a narcissist is that, aside from me, he does not place blame externally. He'd own up and take responsibility, and, frustratingly, he had very little recognition that his ex was horrible. The reason they divorced was because "marriage with kids was hard." He never blamed her, and that's something I'd expect to see from a narcissist. Also, I know and have met some personality disordered folks, and I normally see right through them and feel disgust being around them. I never felt that way about H. Any dysfunction seemed like learned behavior that he could unlearn if he wanted to.
So I still wonder if this is an MLC that brought out narc tendencies/learned behaviors. It seems like being an N would be visible to me, but maybe I'm fooling myself.
He did have a false self he protected fiercely. He liked to think of himself as a "glass half full type of guy" and you should have seen how he'd glow when one of his male friends (always self-absorbed and disasters at relationships) would compliment him on his optimistic outlook on life. I found it hilarious, because I got to see the anxious insomniac who rubbed bald patches into his eyebrows, and would sometimes wake up sobbing at 5:30am and banging his head on the headboard when his ex-wife was emotionally harming his son.
A few weeks before H did a 180, I remember telling him that I didn't agree that he was a lighthearted optimist. I told him there was much more to him than that, but that his true self was still lovable and I loved all of him. I thought that was a nice thing to say, but I guess that may have been an incredibly threatening thing to him.
In the end, it doesn't matter, but I still want to know if I missed something and how. It's all so confusing for me because he appeared to adore me, until he didn't. He was happy, until he wasn't. I got the rug yanked out from under my feet and I want to know why. Not to go back, or to not detach, but because I want to know because of what it means for me.
I am proud to say that I don't feel I was very codependent with H. I had very solid boundaries, and would talk to him about how he could improve things, but I didn't fix anything for him. I remained focused on me and I always felt I liked who he was at his core. The largest source of stress we had was the constant BS coming from his ex and some from his two teenagers, but we'd talked about how we just had 2-3 more years of it and then we were home free. Other than that, we were pretty happy, I thought. I liked who he was, though I did wish he'd get some help for his anxiety and his repressed childhood issues. I really liked his kids, and they seemed to like me. I'd thought that once he was free from being legally required to communicate with his ex - who was trying her hardest to traumatize him - we'd be free from the majority of the stress on us.
As for the legal stuff, it turns out I haven't technically been served yet. My L asked for my permission to be served so that the sheriff wouldn't come to my workplace. The 20 day response deadline starts from that date. We talked it through and my L will be writing up a denial of their claims, and we'll also counterfile. My L wants me to settle and then get the case dismissed, but we don't see any way of H being receptive to a settlement that does not have me incurring a financial loss for his decisions without counterfiling. H and his L are still approaching this as if he should get a full refund for a faulty Cadence, and that H's actions are all perfectly normal, which is fun.
My L said the bills don't start really racking up until depositions and hopefully this will be settled by then.
I asked my L why H's L wouldn't just advise him to give me a fair amount of money and settle this so he can sell. He said that it's not unusual for clients not to be forthcoming with the whole story, and he feels that's likely in H's case. So I'm hoping that describing how this all unfolded will lead them to want to settle. And, honestly, I'll be describing H's actions after he decided he wanted to be rid of me, which were emotionally abusive, so I'm hoping the threat of exposure countering his "nice optimistic guy" image will lead him to want to settle out of court.
I shared H's likely view of me with the L, and he hilariously interrupted me and said "so you're a demon, then?" and I said "pretty much. But a clingy one who is trying to keep him from selling the house because I am SO hoping to get back together." and then we laughed. He's going to include language that I am eager to get the house sold to counteract that ridiculousness. Who knows if it will work. I am bothered by the fact that not reaching a settlement could be furthering H's belief that I am hoping for him back; I've worked so hard to detach but it's not visible because of the circumstances/H's foggy brain.
In the end, H chose the comfort of familiar dysfunction over living an emotionally healthier life. In my mind, there are definite narc tendencies there, but I'm still unclear if that's his true self, or if there was a CPTSD breakdown/MLC that led him to seek out familiar defense mechanisms. I may never know, but I wish I did for my own sake, so I can figure out what it all means for my people picker.
Right now, I'm happy alone, even though it's tough wading through all of this, while not having anyone to hug me and tell me it will be alright. It's tough not having someone to tell about my day and confide in about my fears. But I'm hoping I'm putting in the time to be ready to meet someone healthy and reliable. I still wish it could be H, and maybe there's a .5% chance that he'll show up one day haven taken responsibility for himself, but I know that's unlikely. If he did want to try to R, I am very clear that pretty words are not enough this time, and it would take a great deal for me to ever trust him again.
Logically, it will be so much better/easier for me to find someone new.
Cadence, a cyber hug to you. I'm not sure I see narcissist in yours either. Mine is so textbook that others pale in comparison though. I've read and been told again and again the stress, and indeed divorce, often exacerbate narcissistic traits, so whether he is a narc or is in an MLC, it is possible that he is under a lot of stress from his choices and depression and is just making some incredibly selfish choices.
So what does all this mean for you? How does it change your life? Moving sounds great, if that is what you want. I'm hoping a change of scenery will help kickstart a new life (but also realizing that we take our problems with us).
Remember that the house stuff might also not really be about house stuff. While it is true that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, that sometimes it also something more. Seems like there were easier paths to getting this done than the way he has chosen. Mine will often use formal threats to try to get me to engage. Right now we are engaging quite a bit because of the sale of the house and swapping property, and taking care of the cats, and spending time with the kids as time wanes down, so of course he's being nicer.
Have you tried testing that theory? Call him up, say H I'm about to spend a bunch of money responding to your lawsuit but given our history and past friendship thought I'd make one last run to see if we can just talk this out between us. What might happen? What risk would there be? It's always helpful to have the other guy explain how he sees the case. You just keep your mouth shut and listen and learn things that would cost you tens of thousands of dollars to learn in discovery.
