WW in A. NC or not NC? Unsure. LImbo. (4th thread)

[Stormchaser]

How did you find out about the burner phone?

[Tread]

Hoosjim,

Don't give your W any credit for telling the truth. She lied at first saying it was for her bff. And then only told the truth after clearing the history and the threat of checking the phone records. Even then it took 30 minutes of her searching for excuses in her head before confessing. You got to stop reaching for excuses.

[Coconut]

Jim,

you keep telling us about what she says and how that might be a good sign.. talk is cheap, what is she doing to show you that she wants to be with you?

She's continuing to talk, and maybe more. No matter how close she tells you that she is cutting it off cold turkey, she's still talking to him.

She's "upfront" with you and told you about the phone, but then she deleted the call history and tried to convince you it was only bff she used it for.

Look, this whole conversation shouldn't have happened. What was your boundary about contact with OM? If I recall correctly, it was that you would be done... As soon as you knew, you should have protected yourself and followed your boundary. If/when she stops talking to OM, then you could decide what you want to do then, but right then, at that moment, you were weak and failed to enforce your boundary by ceasing communication with her.

There are two ways that this can play out, you can be in an open M, or you can stand up for yourself and start to move on. If your boundary is that you won't be in an open M, then as long as she is wayward, you start moving on from the M. If she ceases with OM and wants you back, she will let you know.

What are you afraid of? That if you leave she will move on? News flash, she has moved on, she just wants to bring you along.

[AnotherStander]

Should I really be the one leaving the home? Doesn't that look kind of weak? Especially when my kids still need a little looking after and at a somewhat tumultuous time (one getting ready to go off to college)? I'm supposed to be "the lightouse", an important component of which involves, I would think, being a strong and present father for my kids... ESPECIALLY when the other parent is in the throws of an irresponsible, wayward mindset.

I agree with you, stay in the house. You can pressure her to leave but legally you can't kick her out. But if you hold your ground by staying in the house AND in the bed, and you detach as much as you can and treat her like a roommate that you don't necessarily enjoy being around but have to tolerate, then at some point she'll leave on her own.

[Coconut]

Ok, let me be clear on my point, I agree that staying in the house/MBR and DETACHING would be best case scenario. However, most LBS are not able to do that; I believe that if you cannot detach and focus on you, then you are doing more damage than good.

Personally, I think walking out of the house, going dark, and focusing on yourself looks a heck of a lot stronger than staying in the master bedroom, moping around, constantly checking up on the WW, and engaging R discussions.

[hoosjim]

To be clear, coconut, I did not "know" for sure until she confessed. She held phone and had clearly had time to delete history. I didn't even know for sure she'd done that until she told me, just that she'd had opportunity. I don't even know if what I said, checking record, was possible with a burner phone. At any rate, until that point in the convo, she had at least some level of deniability. After that, she didn't. AT THAT POINT, I thanked her for answering me truthfully, said "I'm walking home", got out of the car aND did just that (3 miles, nice walk.) She broke into tears, said "please just ride back to house" but I said no and got out. She got out of car and called to me but I didn't look back.

The other part of the convo occurred later as I was getting ready for bed. I did mostly listening and very little talking.

[sandi2]

I just cant win with you people. Sandi2 says "you shouldn't have taken down your surveillance", you say "take it down". Yeeesh.

Why i am still checking is because I had good reason to believe she (W) was, in her own paradigm, trying to "work on us." Sandi2 suggested or at least implied that doing some "checking" would not be a bad idea, and I agreed. Problem is it has now added some uncertainty. So, yeah, detachment may be the way to go.

Ha, I knew when I made that comment that you would cling to that one thing, if you remembered nothing else I had written. Let me try to clarify to everyone, b/c it was highly unusual for me to suggest you should have left up the surveIllance. At that time, you were debating whether or not she was trying to put some form of effort into NC. It was mostly just you wanting to believe she was NC with OM. She had not made clear, verbal verification of ending the A or of NC with OM. She continued engaging, in what I saw as suspicious behavior. You would not insist on a transparency plan.......but rather, you wanted to simply "trust" this WW who had volunteered no proof of ending her A, nor was she committed to working on the MR. I told you that you cannot afford to trust a WW when there is no verification to back up what she is really doing. Even when the M reconciles and she ends the A and agrees to NC ever again with OM..... there needs to be a lengthy period of transparency. Starsky used to call it, "Trust, but verify". That means you have something that can verify what's going on with her. Most people rely on some sort of tech device as a way to verify, until enough time passes and she has earned your full trust.........b/c her word and actions lined up with the verification. The problem was.......you took down your source of intell, before she made any such changes.

You stayed in a constant emotional stew, b/c you said that since you had removed the surveillance, you had no way of knowing if she was seeing OM and if she was just playing games with you. Therefore, under those circumstances, I did suggest you consider putting the surveillance back up, if your real holdback was not knowing if she was still seeing OM.

Here's the thing, Jim. Without going into the negative sides of snooping, I'll just say that it's not something every person is equipped to handle, and can be difficult erasing from their minds.....even after reconciliation. You took down the surveillance, not b/c she proved she was not seeing the OM.........but rather to convince yourself to trust her on unmerited grounds. I have seen H's decide they will just start trusting their cheating, lying, wayward, wife......and they are delusional. I was concerned this was exactly what you were doing when you took down the surveillance. As shown throughout your posts, you were not able to rest in the uncertainty of not knowing. You were spinning & spinning and getting nowhere b/c you had no transparency plan, and she had not agreeded to one. That's when I told you that you had taken down the surveillance too early. I mean, you continued to say it was a deal breaker if she dishonored your boundary. And, she wasn't likely going to tell you the truth if she was still seeing him. Rather than going out of your mind not knowing where you stood, and seemingly paralyzed from what steps to take next.............I thought it would have made more sense if you had left up the surveillance. I thought it would beat you pretending as if your MR was in a transparency period, when you had nothing that said you were.

But.........here you are, still spinning and basically saying the same stuff. So, apparently, it did not give you the answers you needed?

[Coconut]

AT THAT POINT, I thanked her for answering me truthfully, said "I'm walking home", got out of the car aND did just that (3 miles, nice walk.) She broke into tears, said "please just ride back to house" but I said no and got out. She got out of car and called to me but I didn't look back.

Bingo, there's Jim...

That's the attitude you need to keep with you for the next few weeks. no R talks for two weeks, can you do that?

[hoosjim]

Thanks, Sandi, but...

Okay, now that you've had your "I told you so" and beat me up a little bit about ONE sentence I posted... what... a week ago(?) do you have anything else to offer based on current events? Alot has happened since then. Don't quite see how I am "spinning" in the same uncertainty. Seems to me the uncertainty has been removed.

Or how I am "still saying the same things". You talking about the fact that I choose to see some small glimmer of hope in the fact that she, at least partially on her own, chose to admit to some stuff rather than denying everything to the end as most WWs do? Yeah, I will take that as a SMALL sign, as I said, that in the FUTURE their may be some hope for her to break free of this and find her way back. But that is IT. Nothing about it being a basis for me trusting her now.

Been dodging texts and phone calls/ voice mails (some tearful) from this woman all day. I've got two kids at home with special needs, one profound, and the other one getting to go off to college. All as I start to take the steps that will be as likely to end my marriage as they are to save it. All things considered I think Im holding things together remarkably well.

And, yes, you can interpret all that as a little snarky.

[Coconut]

All as I start to take the steps that will be as likely to end my marriage as they are to save it.

Jim, wrap your head around the fact that her A was the step that will likely end your M... The advice you're getting here is to become the man only a fool would leave, so you can save your M.