Here again part 8

[T384]

No I feel like he knows I'm still hanging on after that conversation.

[Train]

Interesting. From what you wrote, this is the strongest you've sounded to me for MONTHS. Why do you think what you wrote right there ^^??

[leahsue]

I agree T0, with Train. You DID sound strong in that post up above. Why are you back-tracking?

Tomorrow night will be Saturday, date night, etc. I can't remember what you said you are doing then, but I think you had plans? Keep it up, be mysterious, put some good smelling perfume on, and waltz past everyone with a sly smile on your face. And if you happen to see H during that time, just hold your head up, wink at him, and keep on walking in your hot high heels. DO NOT LOOK BACK TO SEE IF HE NOTICED. He will.

[T384]

Because it was a conversation that was R related.

it was me basically agreeing with oh ok you need time. Take your time do what you want. I feel like if came off I was waiting for him.


I gave a lot of I don't knows

He talked about how we need to make ourselves happy. That we tried to make each other happy and we just can't make each other happy we need to make ourselves happy.

He said it killed him not to be around the kids. I said not enough for you to stay here as a parent.

I just was very flat and firm but I also feel like he knows I'm still here.

He said I'm not sure what path were going to take with our lives. I said no you mean what path you're going to take with your life.

he brought up a lot of negatives like the last two nights staying at the house were really nice we got along and it was nice to just be ther without arguing. BUT you know there's a lot of arguing and unhappiness between us. I just said I'm sorry you feel that way. I choose to see the positives and not the negatives.

[T384]

I was strong but I told myself I wouldn't get drug into these conversations for at least 30 days and it's only been a couple days and here I am.

I was getting to the point where for whatever reason he was saying goodnight texting me. Today was the first time he has asked me how my day was since March. Not that it meant anythingor that it wasn't deceitful but still. Now I feel like I'm starting all over and he thinks it was An act

[leahsue]

Because it was a conversation that was R related.

it was me basically agreeing with oh ok you need time. Take your time do what you want. I feel like if came off I was waiting for him.


I gave a lot of I don't knows

He talked about how we need to make ourselves happy. That we tried to make each other happy and we just can't make each other happy we need to make ourselves happy.

He said it killed him not to be around the kids. I said not enough for you to stay here as a parent.

I just was very flat and firm but I also feel like he knows I'm still here.

He said I'm not sure what path were going to take with our lives. I said no you mean what path you're going to take with your life.

I'm going to comment on this, then I'm going to bed.

What if you had said, " I am deciding what path I'M going to take with MY LIFE."

You and H are not a team right now. You aren't making joint decisions about your future. I think it's strong and confident for you to start making decisions about where YOU want to go, and he may or may not want to be a part of that.

But T0, you absolutely have to decide your own future path, and don't figure him in the plan. If he wants to run along beside you as you go that path, then good luck to him in catching up.

Wow. I need to take my own advice.

I think my anxiety meds are kicking in.

[25yearsmlc]

T0,

I know having the newborn makes this incredibly confusing & so demanding (and probably hormonal).

But T0, as much as you are spinning, and being bogged down & mired in the crap,

you have been here before...and imo, that makes some things clearer...
Not easier, but clearer.

What did you tell yourself before, what your path would be if it happened again?

Does your h doing this again after having a newborn, make you want to stay married to him more,

or less?

Here is what I learned this week.

My T mentioned how much emotional and mental energy it took for me to maintain the illusion that h was into being a family guy when it was just no longer true. The reality is he went to Alaska a whole lot - & usually lied about it. He put a lot of deceit into things I probably would have been okay with, too. Ironically his cowardly behavior was avoiding something that was unnecessary but it hurt me a lot to learn of later. Far far more than I'd have felt if he'd just asked to do a selfish thing (or something important to him that didn't bother me anyhow.)

As always it was the lying that ate away at my confidence.

He lived away from home with various excuses but in retrospect, it's pretty much self evident he didn't want to be a full time dad, and that's just a reality I must accept. He'd wrap it up in packages of "we need the money/I'm just checking out a job/helping with my mom" for 7 of the past 10 years off and on. And I allowed that. It's as if the fact that it wasn't Alaska, made the difference??


I simply could not believe who my h had become... I kept trying to convince myself AND the kids that h was someone he wasn't anymore. (That pretense of his and my enabling it did some damage to the kids).

I like to think He changed. I like to think he was once a very involved dad and h.

As horrible and challenging and overwhelming as it is to unravel a marriage of 35 years,

I'm starting to have days where I think I may have dodged a bullet.

If H & I remained married and I had been in an accident in 2/10/20 years & needed long term help, there is no way he'd have my back. No "in sickness & in health"...

He'd let me down again. This past fall I really needed him when I got sick. I was terrified and yes, needy. And he was AWOL.

I am beginning to see him as unstable & unreliable, and capable of truly poor choices.

I have felt differently about him now for the past few days. Even though he betrayed me in every way a h can betray a wife, I am beginning to see h has done me a very wounding & painful, but ultimately valuable permanent favor.

Our s31 said that I am "bound for so much more happiness than I'd have otherwise".

T0, that is how our only son sees this^^^.

So be mindful of romanticizing what would have been, if you and your h remained legally married. Sometimes we have to see that the value of an authentic but separate life, is better than an intact family with dysfunction and dishonesty. You're young, You can make it financially without your h, and you have family support nearby. If your h is capable of lasting seismic change, that's great. It sure won't come about by continuing this dance. As someone else wrote, you're a hardcore pursuer and it's getting you nowhere fast.

I'm sorry T0, but as of now, Your choice is Not between a bad divorce - OR a happy intact marriage and family. I don't think that is the choice life is offering you now.

T0, there are times it's very hard to know the difference between projecting our own situation onto others

and trying to share our experience and the insights we gained. I'm trying hard to balance the 2. I apologize if I'm blurring the line.

Actions are actions, and inaction is an action.

So again, what would your 2014 self have told your present day self, if you could see where you are today?

We are rooting for you and your boys.

[cadence]

T0, all is not lost, but one of the main principles of DB is not to talk about the R when your H has decided to leave.

All he is doing is looking for validation he's doing the right thing. He WANTS these arguments. He WANTS the nitpicking. He WANTS to feel like you're overly emotional and want to control him.

He is trying to bring those out so he can reassure himself. Engaging in these discussions allows him to search and find things about you that makes him feel better and more confident in leaving.

Before I left, my H was trying so hard to pick a fight with me. I wouldn't let him. My mother was up helping me pack (and serving as a double agent since she was being nice to him to gather intel) and she saw him do things like mention something he was worried we'd take to her, and she'd confirm it, and then he'd seek me out in the house to tell me, too. It was totally unnecessary and he did it hoping he'd upset or anger me. I would not let him have that. I was neutral and brief. "Ok. I'll be careful."

I also heard the weird confusion between "I" and "we". He'd "we" me when he needed my cooperation. I was the one bringing it back to "me". I didn't let him lump me in, because he doesn't get to do what he did and then count on me to help him avoid consequences. This is what I see your H doing with these texts and calls, in addition to trying to bait you into negativity.

You've got a major pursuer/distancer dynamic happening. You both see the world very differently. You want togetherness to soothe you, he wants space to soothe him. You want to talk about problems immediately, he wants to ignore them, hoping they'll just go away (or that if he were with the right person, there would be no problems.)

You started stopping your pursuit, and your distancer doesn't like that. Classic. He wants you back in the role you've always played for him - needing him, wanting him, and making it known. And, make no mistake, by getting angry or hurt and allowing him to see that, you give him these things. You make him feel powerful and like he can come back to T0, Plan B, if he wants to.

You are no Plan B, T0. He chose to walk out, and you get to not participate in the same old games. Do not allow him to bait you into anything resembling pursuit. What you want is to learn to self-soothe and rely on yourself. You want to recognize that H is separate from you, not an extension of yourself or "the family." Right now, you want different things and that means you get to choose how much of yourself you give him. I think it should be very little, because the sooner he experiences the reality of his new chosen life, the better for you.

I think you see every opportunity of H talking to you as meaning it's possible to turn things around in the short term if you can just find the right words. That is pursuing behavior. T0, you will not get a healthy R without time apart where you grow confident and happy and he starts to take a hard look at his own behavior. You can only free him to do the latter by getting out of your own darn way and stop providing him ammunition.

Distancers do not change or really evaluate their choices while the pursuer is still pursuing. You have to stop, because that is the only way you get what you hope for - an H who might choose to examine himself and how he got here, and has realized that you are still the strong confident woman he fell in love with, that he perhaps has some depression issues or looking for happiness outside of himself, and that things can get better. And, yes, maybe he needs to see that the grass isn't greener with any OW.

I'm hurting about H likely dating. But I also tell myself that if I were a friend of mine looking at this situation, I'd say to me "Well, that's actually good. He's not likely to find someone amazing like you, and once the limerance ends, he'll be forced to remember all the good qualities that you have that he took for granted." T0, that applies for you, too. You and H had something special, and he assumes he can find it elsewhere. He thinks the grass is greener. Let him figure out that it's not.

Overall, it's time to decide. Do you want to help H leave you and feel good about his choice? If so, keep engaging in these discussions.

If you'd rather give him zero ammunition to soothe himself about leaving you, it is now up to you to enforce boundaries. No R talks. If he starts on the phone, find a reason to end the call. If he does it in your presence, say in an upbeat voice "You know, H, I don't think I want to talk about this." Keep all bitter tones out of any conversation with him.

You also need to try to validate him when he says things like "I miss the kids." "I can see why. That sounds really tough."

T0, remember all your friends from DB looking through your kitchen window and supporting you to remember and employ the new rules? It's time to picture that again. Because you won't get H back following your instincts; you will push him further away. You seem to have some mutual codependency happening and it's best for you to get the one to amicably put up some boundaries that reflect the new reality that H chose. You're not at his mercy, T0. You don't have to do what he wants.

You sounded so great yesterday, and then you allowed yourself to get sucked in, because you needed him to know that you knew about him looking for a house. What did that get you? To me, that was you being a pursuer and trying to make him change his behavior based on the fact that you "knew." But you're not his mom, T0. This is an adult man, one who has left you, making plans for his future. Why are you choosing to take that so personally and why do you think, after leaving you, he has an obligation to "not lie" to you? You aren't together and he doesn't owe you anything, unfortunately.

You don't seem to be coming from the place where you accept that he wants things to be over, even if there's not legal S right now.

So what if he's looking for a house? That would be great for the boys if he finds one, because unlike most WAH, he'd have enough bedrooms for them to visit.

Do you have the DR book? If so, pick it up and read it again. It's okay to be hurt and scared, but come here for help. With H you need to be acting "as if" while taking great care not to do anything that looks like pursuit, and while focusing on yourself.

[skyhigh]

Cadence, I love your post, I think exactly the same way.
Bravo!

To please follow her advice.

Mlcers need to engage us in fights so they can twist those arguments in their favor to justify their actions/behavior. Don't give him that! Detach! Mine was a master at it (I was walking on egg shells, one day he even started a fight about stains on the kitchen floor...), once I understood the dynamic I stopped, at first he tried even harder then it slowed down. It's removing us as the cause of their unhappiness, it forces them to look elsewhere. Also fights justify them why they had to leave home, otherwise how can you explain to others that you are abandoning your wife and kids for OW... it doesn't look good, they hate to be judged, they care about their image a lot.

It's a process, so be very patient, it takes weeks/months. MLC is a marathon not a sprint, LBS are making the mistake of thinking that the situation can be fixed quickly, pushing too much and being impatient.

Focus on yourself and the kids (detach, please read the thread), because your life shouldn't stop because he is not part of it anymore. Don't expect him to be the dad (even if he expresses missing the kids) you want him to be now (tough to accept but that's reality), he is in full limerence, he cares only about his own life and needs, it doesn't mean his behavior will stay like that forever, limerence fades after a few months, just avoid any nasty words/conversations so in case he wants to come back, things are repairable. My H was very distant with the kids during his full replay (limerence), he was obsessed with OW (addiction), but now he changed drastically. Situations are always evolving so live in the present because what is today can be very different in a few weeks/months.

Pull away from him, stop pursuing him or engage in any R talks, it won't work, it will have the opposite effect. Our instinct is to pursue, but in that case ,it is counterproductive. I

He already planned of moving out since some times now it's obvious, he is just looking for justification to explain to others he couldn't "bear" this situation anymore (poor him...)

Communicate with him in regard of the kids only through emails or messages, so you can keep track of what he said/what he does.

Good job in telling him that you know he is lying, Mlcers like to be in control of their manipulation, they will lie just to be able to go through what they want to achieve without being interrupted of stopped, that's why don't believe any of what he said. Mine kept lying about not seeing the OW, WH have something in common they deny, deny... until I showed him some pictures.

You are NOT the reason he is behaving that way, he needs to figure out why by himself.
Your worth is not related to him.

[T384]

Thanks everyone. You are all right and Cadence your worlds and explanation is exactly why I was regretting getting into the conversation. He continues to lie it won't change but I just felt for the first time I decided it was time for me to stand up band not be a doormat.

He still continues to talk to the boss daughter for hours late at night.

I can promise that is the last talk I will have with him. Even if he tries to have a talk with me after he's finished taking his space and wants to tell me it's over he's made his decision I won't have that conversation. I'll only involve myself in necessary children and financial conversations.

He said he was coming to stay the night tonight. I think I need to leave while he's here. I don't have any plans and most of my friends are busy so I'm not sure what I'll do.