25yearsmlc 10 yrs later I File D (part 4)

[kml]

"Let go or be dragged" was my mantra.

I attended a similar group meeting when going through my divorce - I agree wholeheartedly with your advice, it's a huge financial transaction and most divorce lawyers have a flimsy grasp on the tax consequences etc. Wife dot org has some good related financial advice.

Simple things like the tax consequences of receiving alimony versus a lump sum. The necessity of getting a QDRO to split a pension. Lots to consider and definitely worth getting some sound financial planning advice.

AS for daughter's legal issue - lawyers are expensive, but not having one can be more expensive still. You may need to directly ask your H to help with the legal fees - you can hope that he may be ashamed to say no in a voice conversation with you, whereas it's easy to say no to an email.

I had a similar situation - my oldest son, as an indirect consequence of his Asperger's, got caught up in a legal situation with a pretty bad potential outcome. Ex and I each paid half of the initial fee - but when the total bill came due (for the lawyer EX had researched and hired btw as I was out of the country when this first came down) my ex stuck me with the entire remainder, to the tune of an additional $10k. I've never forgiven him for that.

And one of the reasons my ex felt justified in sticking me with that fee? Because he's an idiot and totally didn't understand the tax consequences of alimony, so he thought he was paying me much more than he actually was. He was apparently under the delusion that he was paying me almost 20% of his income in alimony, when, once you calculate his tax deduction for it etc., it was only 11% of his after-tax take-home income. He also probably thought that I got all of that alimony money, instead of having to pay about a third of it in taxes.

[kml]

Correction - he actually thought somehow he was paying a third of his income in alimony! Again, very bad at math and taxes.

[Ginger1]

What an incredibly sad story, 25. And I am sure this is extra difficult because this is someone you knew and liked. That has got to be hard to handle. Not many people get to know someone who killed someone on a personal basis.

I remember, because I guess I am kind of warped, when I was a kid I asked myself what would happen if I found out my dad was a murderer? He was my safe place and my friend and I wondered how I would felt if I found out something horrible. Would I still love him? Then I remember I said of course I would, he is my dad! And then I felt guilty about loving him if he was a murderer..... (I know, this sounds nuts. I have always been an overthinker).

My mom was mentally ill. She did take her own life 4 years after my dad left her. She was a mentally ill former addict and spiraled out when he left. She couldn't handle it.

I remember saying I wish my ex would have died rather than have left me. I never though of killing him of course, but I felt his death wouldn't have been a CHOICE to leave me.

I never thought about killing myself after bomb drop because I had a baby. But I had wished I was dead sometimes and I imagined a tractor trailer taking me out on the way to work.

There are life events that are so devastating that just make people snap. So incredibly sad for all involved. Especially those kids.

[AnotherStander]

Killing his wife (or himself) was totally at odds with his religious beliefs too.

Ironically he may have thought that death would be a reuniting of he and his wife -because- of his religious beliefs. He may have thought he was acting out of love, "fixing" the situation. Obviously he wasn't. He more than likely was having some severe internal struggles as you suspect, that clinging to the ledge comment really rings true for what I went through. And he no doubt was not thinking rationally and logically. I think when I was going through that "empty shell" period that no one knew the difference. Outwardly I -think- I was acting normal, but inside things were not at all normal. So don't beat yourself up, I am not surprised you didn't see any warning signs because there probably weren't any. I am very sorry you went through this, you and your friends in the group are yet another casualty of his actions that he probably never considered.

years ago, here, a WAW took her own life and her h blamed himself for awhile.

Strangely enough I was thinking about them on my drive to work this morning. For me that is a tragic example of how traumatic things can be for a WAS. On these forums we read pages and pages of LBS's expressing the pain, trauma, fear, etc. that they are going through and shock that their WAS "could do this" to them. What is sadly missing from nearly all posts is concern for the WAS, for what THEY are going through, and how the LBS can help them with their struggle. BD doesn't mean there's a happy WAS and a distraught LBS, it usually means there are two very distressed parties trying to figure out what to do with their lives.

In hindsight I don't think his WAW was in a MLC at all; she had undiagnosed mental illness. I recall her getting the diagnosis and within 2 months, ending her life.

Your memory is much better than mine but from what I remember that does sound right. Unfortunately the LBS didn't post much after that, I hope he came through it OK.

We cannot affect our spouse and we cannot go back in time & we cannot "wait" for the future we hoped for, to happen.

Nicely said. It's so accurate, and also poetic.

[25yearsmlc]

Just went on FB to look at Ralphs photos of his kids and him. (Not worried about using his name now, given the situation).

A bunch of people are cursing at Ralph on his fb page.

ONE person posted a prayer for the kids, and the rest are condemning him. Telling him to burn in hell.

*AS, I don't think Ralph believed he'd be united with his ex in heaven because they'd be dead. That wasn't the plan b/c there was no plan.

I do hope God looks at all of our actions in life. I think Ralph snapped and then was overcome with despair and took his own life. Not insane but also not in his right mind.

His kids meant everything to him and if he thought any of it out, there's no way he'd have done this. He did not think this out. He would not take the primary caregiver away from his kids, especially his disabled son.


But why must people condemn him this way? He has family and friends who are being VERY quiet, understandably.

I just wanted to look at him & his kids again and now i have to see all this "rot in hell you coward!" crap.

Surreal. Painful. What are Ralphs family/ sisters feeling now?

I guess no one is allowed to mourn him publicly.

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=Ginger1]What an incredibly sad story, 25. And I am sure this is extra difficult because this is someone you knew and liked. That has got to be hard to handle. Not many people get to know someone who killed someone on a personal basis.

not counting clients, this^^ is true. Certainly the first friend I have had who took a major exit ramp in life. Damn.

I remember, because I guess I am kind of warped, when I was a kid I asked myself what would happen if I found out my dad was a murderer? He was my safe place and my friend and I wondered how I would felt if I found out something horrible. Would I still love him? Then I remember I said of course I would, he is my dad! And then I felt guilty about loving him if he was a murderer..... (I know, this sounds nuts. I have always been an overthinker).

I get it. I have not told anyone in real life other than my sisters that he was in our group or that I went to his house or that I liked him. I told my sister 2 weeks ago that he was "a really devoted dad". SO weird.


My mom was mentally ill. She did take her own life 4 years after my dad left her. She was a mentally ill former addict and spiraled out when he left. She couldn't handle it.


Ginger...wtf? That is some serious ouch.

I remember saying I wish my ex would have died rather than have left me. I never though of killing him of course, but I felt his death wouldn't have been a CHOICE to leave me.

I think a lot of us get that feeling. MY sister was divorced, remarried and then was widowed. I'm positive she preferred widowhood to being rejected.

(Plus you get free food when someone dies...) yes that's called gallows humor.

I never thought about killing myself after bomb drop because I had a baby. But I had wished I was dead sometimes and I imagined a tractor trailer taking me out on the way to work.

There are life events that are so devastating that just make people snap. So incredibly sad for all involved. Especially those kids.


Yes yes...^^

I was wondering if our brains and neuroplasticity can be redirected by chronic stress and hurt, rage, frustration, and then despair.

Would the MRI show changes?

Again, I think we all must stress HOPE in our situations.

Ralph must have felt hopeless after he attacked his xw, and or horrific shame, or more despair...a despair I hope never to know.

I feel in my heart that if he had believed his life was going to be better soon,

maybe none of this would have happened.

Hope really matters.

[Rick1963]

Hi 25 the signs are not always visible when someone does not suffer from psychosis. We know that 95% of people who commit such crimes are suffering from a mental disorder at the time of the act. We don't know about the other 5%.

We know that one huge red flag for people with depression who were feeling suicidal at some point and become happy. This is concerning. This means they have it all planned out researched have means and a plan. Most clinicians miss this sudden change from total despair to happiness.

Giving away things, writing good bye letters, and in the elderly...cleaning their future resting place are some examples..

Getting divorced is a serious risk to everyone especially if you do not want it. I hear of so many killings during a divorce where domestic violence was never present in the marriage.

I think divorce needs to be further researched in mental health and classified as a form of PTSD or something...

[25yearsmlc]

rick

(Hi!)

Yeah, well, I can't say 95% of my violent clients were mentally ill.
I think of armed robbers (and burglars who are surprised there is someone home) & I don't think they are necessarily mentally ill. I suppose rapists are arguable mentally ill but I've never heard them claim mental illness absent some abuse in their childhoods.
Maybe you can refer me to the source if you can recall it.

I'm familiar with the signs of suicide you mention. I just don't think that applies here as no one thinks it was premeditated.
In the opinion of the therapist and pastor & others, Ralph was not suicidal in advance of the event.
He was in our support group, active in his church, he was planning on hosting another event, & he cared deeply about his kids. Ralph said his goal was to improve his r with his ex w and said he wanted to stop being irritable with her. So, no, He did not plan this. He was not suicidal until after he realized what he had done. And in a way that was the appropriate response. If Ralph spent 5 minutes thinking this out, he'd totally avoid this. He would feel complete utter regret.

Belaboring this point isn't really my goal here.

I think I'm just freaked AND I think is something to watch for in others (and ourselves).

As I said earlier, I wish there was research on the brain after long periods of sadness or stress/obsessing, etc. We know there are changes in the behavior (and increased suicide) but I wonder about actual structural or chemical changes. Same for deployed soldiers. Less sleep, poor eating, low or manic energy- the fact that we cannot concentrate as well means something is going on.

Now that I think about it, our obsessing -after awhile, is pretty darn unhealthy &
We can ruminate too long and repetitively.

We tend to focus on the MLC WAS's behavior and forget to check ourselves often enough for our own unhealthy behaviors.


Yes it's absolutely a form of PTSD. In Ralphs case, he also learned that his son was going to die before the age of 20, which he learned a few months ago. Even for an LBSer, he was under tremendous stress and it was ongoing.

His inlaws showed up Sunday and I guess they were "observing" his drop off time.

We will never know what transpired in the <2 minutes between his arrival at the house, and... the rest.

To be clear, there's no defense to what he did. I know that.

But it's alarming & sad & horrifying. His little d8 will never be the same, & seeing her mom, and asking the neighbor to call 911 - OMG I can't even go there. She lost her mom and her dad in the most brutal manner.

So we really need to look out for ourselves, "check in" with ourselves, and we need to be safe with our spouses.

This is not painless for anyone. But it should not be fatal.

Very sad.

[Zues126]

This is a heartbreaking story. To see two people that loved each other, married, brought children into this world, and built a family together end with betrayal, abandonment, violence, death, and the daily devastation that will be the future for these children that once had parents...well, it's horrible beyond description.

Was he mentally ill or driven beyond any reasonable breaking point? Was he a villain or a victim? Did his WAW drive him to this or is this all on him?

There is no question that violence and murder cannot be excused. No one but him is accountable for this decision. It is utterly damaging and isn't something that can ever be made right. So I would never excuse his actions or encourage someone else to take responsibility for them.

Yet these questions aren't easy. I don't know if he was 'mentally ill', shoot, I don't even know exactly what that term means or what the difference is. If mentally ill means people acting crazy compared to the rest of us, then yes, anyone that does something crazy fit that description. But I get concerned that label minimizes some of what this man was dealing with. Maybe he wasn't crazy. Maybe it really was simply too much. Did his WAW drive him to this? No one drives someone to what he did. That is a step he took himself. But it would be naive to think that she didn't contribute to the pain he felt that at some point exceeded his ability to cope. You cannot drive someone out of their marital home, limit their access to their children, destroy their family and identity within that family, flaunt another person in their face, and oppress them with an aggressive court system, then label them as 'mentally ill' when they can't go on.

I think to myself, if the divorce rate was 5% instead of 50%, would there be more or less suicide? I'm not booked up on statistics but I would imagine it would be quite a bit less. If that's the case, then at some point don't we all have a responsibility to contribute to a world that is livable?

Then I think of a school shooting with a kid that was being bullied. Of course that's not ok. But do we label the kid as mentally ill and close the case? Or do we take a look at the bullying epidemic and say "We need to put a stop to a culture that inflicts such tremendous pain on so many"?

In so many ways this mirrors our DBing. I never would've left XW. She is ultimately responsible for her choice to end the marriage. Yet it is clear that my behavior during my M had some serious shortcomings, there was real pain inflicted on her as a result of my actions, and right or wrong this is the outcome.

We don't need to beat ourselves up about things in the past. But I do think it's really important that we take responsibility for our behavior, and acknowledge the impact our behavior has on those around us, and the cumulative effect all of our behavior has on the world we have to share.

I am not a model of this behavior and don't claim to be an example. I just know that when I read a story like this it makes me rededicated to being more demanding of myself and more aware of the impact I am making.

I also want to thank all of you that are DBing and standing by your marriages. I am of the belief that divorce isn't the answer, and that it leads to losses deeper than we can measure. Something so destructive should not be socially acceptable. Something so destructive should not be minimized and shrugged off with trite sayings and rationalizations about how it wasn't meant to be. I believe those attitudes minimize the damage that divorce causes, leading to more pain and suffering, which can clearly lead down even darker paths. So stay true to your beliefs, stand by your marriage, and take responsibility for your own destructive behavior. The next person you talk to might be at the end of their rope. We're fighting for more than our marriage here. We're fighting to do our part to make things a little easier for each other so that these situations don't repeat and our children grow up in stable loving homes with both their parents around to see them through.

[Ginger1]

Hey Zues,

On another hand, I also wonder if the divorce rate was 5% would people be killing themselves because they are in a marriage they are miserable in? It could really go either way. We see how some WAS feel smothered, trapped, neglected, abused, very depressed and if they couldn't get out by divorce, they might get out otherwise. Again, I am probably only an advocate of divorce in 5% of situations, rather than 50%, but this is a reality.

I do think they should do more studies on the effects of divorce/heartbreak. It really can be devastating to many.