the L your h hired & who emailed you for info, she MIGHT be churning fees to "confirm/verify" the identity of your L.
Or there's a legit reason to confirm, like she thinks your h is flaky, disorganized, etc.
Or she has to hear it from you, with local customs in place, etc.
I doubt that in this particular sitch, your h is playing a game on purpose. Just my .02
as for hiring a DB coach, I always support that. But don't confuse a DB coach with a L and don't confuse a L with a therapist (& believe me, I've done both).
((( )))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Friends who tell you why WAS will/won't return are totally speculating but usually I think they want us to protect ourselves by keeping our hopes down. I get that.
I think we are supposed to completely work on having no expectations and to protect ourselves financially, & to remember that anytime in this process and even after a divorce, couples can reconcile.
On occasion, the freedom so desperately sought by and demanded by the WAS is only achieved by a divorce.
Maybe only then, can they finally look around at the spouse they left behind, who is now living their own life. (& that part is 100% in the LBSers control).
Only then, perhaps - is the light shined on the history and commonality in their r. Even then, the WAS would need to face the wreckage they created, then do a lot of work to rebuild.
No LBS can wait for ^^that, or expect it, but maybe a part of your heart can hold a tiny piece of hope. Hope is allowed.
Hope has to be disconnected somehow, from expectations & cannot hinder GAL and feeling free.
Because like it or not, you are or will be free. And more WASs do not return than do.
Some argue that hope has to be eliminated or the LBSer simply won't move on.
I think if you are careful, you can have hope safely coupled with embracing what life is offering/forcing upon you.
Make sense?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Yes 25, makes perfect sense. Thanks for taking the time to stop by.
The statement you made in someone else's thread (and I can't remember who right now) struck a chord with me. You said we have to decide if we can live with the way they are treating us (as we begin to work back toward R).
Well, I realized, I can't. I don't like the way he has not only abandoned me, but his mother, siblings, favorite BIL. That has never been his way. One of the reasons I fell in love with him was his deep commitment to the people he loved. That appears to be gone. He was a very tender, loving man who would tear up at a Hallmark commercial. Now, he won't return phone calls, unless it suits him, or texts, sometimes at all. Not just mine. His other loved ones too. He used to openly adore me, and didn't mind telling anyone who would listen. Now he can go 4-5 days in a row, with no contact with me at all. He does not show one single bit of excitement or even interest in anything but his work. For whatever reason, he keeps planning, then canceling, an extended visit here. But I don't know how he thinks that is going to fix anything. He has not stated that he want a R. All he has said is- we just need to spend some time together.... which if I'm honest, is far from saying he's back in the game. The one time I mentioned him being attracted to me or not, he did not offer one single bit of encouragement or affirmation, but instead, turned it around and said, I don't know why you would think I'm not attracted to you. My question back to him should have been, Why in the world would I think you are? We spoke on the phone last night, and even after I told him his re-scheduled dates would not work for me, he still has his trip planned for then, knowing I will be tied up for the first 3 days of it. We had a horrible conversation about all of that. No DBing there. It was late and I was tired and I should never have engaged in the conversation. We hung up in anger. I tried to call him back in just a few minutes to suggest another way to work the dates, but he would not answer his phone. I was awake all night thinking about how easily he has just let go of me. I think this visit will be a disaster. It's too long, especially if things go badly. So today, I just made a decision. If I am going to engage at all from here on out, he is going to have to show me that he wants us to work toward that. And he is going to have to act like it. I basically told him that the way he is able to ignore me when things get too heated for him, shows me very clearly that any feelings he had for me are gone. I also told him I cannot see why he would possibly want to visit me in light of that, unless it is to bring divorce papers, and we don't have to meet in person for that. I said if you still come south to see your family, maybe we can meet for lunch or something. But if that does not interest you, then that's OK too. I said I'm sorry this is how things turned out. Since then, silence. Based on his past actions after a discussion like this, he will wait a few days, then contact me and totally act like the previous conversation never happened. Which makes my words mean what, nothing? So I expect that to happen, or he will just drop the whole thing.
Either way, I can't do this any more. I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who goes hot to cold, ignores me or my calls when it suits him, then calls later like "it's all good". It would be different if he hadn't kept wanting to see me and spend time with me, plans it, then postpones. I just don't know what the visit means to him, and it makes it almost impossible to truly remain neutral about the outcome. It almost feels like the visit will be an audition, to see if I'm worth the work that would lie ahead of us.
Last night he kept saying, I am 95% of the way to seeing this work thing to its conclusion, and I've come too far to drop it now. I've put all this time and effort in it for 18 months, and I can't just walk away. I said, that's what most people say about their relationships, not their JOBS. Work will always be there, but every time you postpone your visit, you choose work over me. He disagreed, but that's exactly what it is. He said, If I'm not here, things don't get done. I'm sure he truly believes that, but a job cannot be there in the place of people and relationships. I don't understand why he can't have both. But he compartmentalizes things, and always has. This is to a ridiculous degree.
Today, for the first time, I think I know in my heart that it is over for good. I am so very sad, and lonely, but I'm trying not to confuse those emotions with love. I don't think I even love him anymore.
I do love and value me, though. And I will be OK.
M-60 H-51 M-14 years BD 12/26/16 S 1/1/17
"First the pain, then the rising." Glennon Doyle Melton
Okay Leah, right now it $uck$ to be you. I totally get that. I'm just wondering why you are putting negatives on his emotions instead of being confident that he "should" have positives and isn't showing them....
let me see if I can clarify...
Originally Posted By: leahsue
Yes 25, makes perfect sense. Thanks for taking the time to stop by.
The statement you made in someone else's thread (and I can't remember who right now) struck a chord with me. You said we have to decide if we can live with the way they are treating us (as we begin to work back toward R).
Well, I realized, I can't. I don't like the way he has not only abandoned me, but his mother, siblings, favorite BIL. That has never been his way. One of the reasons I fell in love with him was his deep commitment to the people he loved. That appears to be gone.
we don't know if it's gone for good, or absent without leave. There is a difference
but you may not care if it's permanent b/c hey, it could happen again and without a lot of assurances as to why it won't, or better gauges for checking in, it's a damn big risk.
FAIR enough.
He was a very tender, loving man who would tear up at a Hallmark commercial. Now, he won't return phone calls, unless it suits him, or texts, sometimes at all. Not just mine. His other loved ones too. He used to openly adore me, and didn't mind telling anyone who would listen. Now he can go 4-5 days in a row, with no contact with me at all. He does not show one single bit of excitement or even interest in anything but his work. For whatever reason, he keeps planning, then canceling, an extended visit here. But I don't know how he thinks that is going to fix anything. He has not stated that he want a R. All he has said is- we just need to spend some time together.... which if I'm honest, is far from saying he's back in the game.
Fair points^^^. OTOH any WAS trying to reconcile, (or most, I assume) need to probe a bit before returning or live in the same area, etc.
They are risking too...know what I mean?
The one time I mentioned him being attracted to me or not, he did not offer one single bit of encouragement or affirmation, but instead, turned it around and said, I don't know why you would think I'm not attracted to you. My question back to him should have been, Why in the world would I think you are?
We spoke on the phone last night, and even after I told him his re-scheduled dates would not work for me, he still has his trip planned for then, knowing I will be tied up for the first 3 days of it. is he trying to prove something? Are there a lot of other things for him to do there, without you? I'm not clear on why he'd do this unless his schedule is really busy...
We had a horrible conversation about all of that. No DBing there. It was late and I was tired and I should never have engaged in the conversation. We hung up in anger. I tried to call him back in just a few minutes to suggest another way to work the dates, but he would not answer his phone. I was awake all night thinking about how easily he has just let go of me.
yeah, I hear you...I really truly do...man, it $uck$.
I think this visit will be a disaster. It's too long, especially if things go badly. So today, I just made a decision. If I am going to engage at all from here on out, he is going to have to show me that he wants us to work toward that. And he is going to have to act like it. I understand.
I basically told him that the way he is able to ignore me when things get too heated for him, shows me very clearly that any feelings he had for me are gone.
^^^here is where you've lost me. He RUNS when it gets hot and when he starts to feel negative emotions (whichever emotions those are)
which is NOT to say his feelings are gone. Probably the opposite.
I also told him I cannot see why he would possibly want to visit me in light of that, unless it is to bring divorce papers, and we don't have to meet in person for that. I said if you still come south to see your family, maybe we can meet for lunch or something. But if that does not interest you, then that's OK too. I said I'm sorry this is how things turned out. Since then, silence.
Based on his past actions after a discussion like this, he will wait a few days, then contact me and totally act like the previous conversation never happened. Which makes my words mean what, nothing? So I expect that to happen, or he will just drop the whole thing. Wow his conflict resolution skills are just absent. Like gaslight absent. What were his parents like?
My h became very conflict avoidant and sometimes act as if he had amnesia and I guess I was supposed to as well.
When he'd come back from a shocking sneaky trip to Alaska - (which is insanely far and weird to do) he'd say he was "just checking out a job" and act as if I was overreacting or a b1tch of not welcoming him home with open arms at the airport.
Looking back, it made me feel a little crazy to not say "Wtf, this is wrong w/you?"
I also think that shame is a problem with these guys. Like if they admit (at some level) they are way out of line, or have inflicted pain on someone, well, they just cannot look there.
I'm not sure what you can do to "keep the road home, paved and smooth".
In fact, I used to say this^^ a lot based on my db coach's advice. I think it might be smart to do for a recon
but not for piecing. Piecing was way too smooth in hindsight, in my situation. (To be fair, h's mom was diagnosed with terminal cancer shortly after we reconciled so piecing got shelved. Since I don't have a time machine, I just pass that on to you).
Either way, I can't do this any more. I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who goes hot to cold, ignores me or my calls when it suits him, then calls later like "it's all good". it's pretty crazy making and I understand this^^
It would be different if he hadn't kept wanting to see me and spend time with me, plans it, then postpones. I just don't know what the visit means to him, and it makes it almost impossible to truly remain neutral about the outcome. It almost feels like the visit will be an audition, to see if I'm worth the work that would lie ahead of us. this^^^ really resonates. I believe it hurt my d's deeply too. God, I hate remembering that. But it's true.
Last night he kept saying, I am 95% of the way to seeing this work thing to its conclusion, and I've come too far to drop it now. I've put all this time and effort in it for 18 months, and I can't just walk away. I said, that's what most people say about their relationships, not their JOBS. Bingo Work will always be there, but every time you postpone your visit, you choose work over me. He disagreed, but that's exactly what it is. He said, If I'm not here, things don't get done. your vision^^^ is the truth. His is not. I'm married (still, legally) to a DOCTOR and this^^ hurts to read. So damn familiar. Decades...OMG I just shook my head typing this out.
I can't even... I'm sure he truly believes that, but a job cannot be there in the place of people and relationships. but, so what if he believes it? Is that better than not believing it?
I don't understand why he can't have both. But he compartmentalizes things, and always has. This is to a ridiculous degree. yes^^^
Today, for the first time, I think I know in my heart that it is over for good. I am so very sad, and lonely, but I'm trying not to confuse those emotions with love. I don't think I even love him anymore.
I do love and value me, though. And I will be OK.
things can change. People can change. But I hear you.
((( )))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Mind reading can be dangerous but I'm betting I'm on target here. If H keeps setting up a trip and then cancelling it, it tells me he's scared. He wants to meet with you but when it gets close he bolts because he's afraid of what might happen. This seems rather easy to figure out / perhaps because I've done it myself at times. Why would he come if you are busy? Ai win, it's very simple, he won't have to spend much time with you. That way he can dip his toe back in the water but not go swimming. It's more manageable for him. What he'd likely rather do is meet for a few hours at a time but the distance doesn't allow for that. Work is not more important to him but it's safe. Meeting with you us not safe and if it goes bad on the first day, he won't be able to run and hide for the other days.
I'll bet money that's what's going on here.
DonH Midwest Me 56 WAW-EXW 55 Met 11/95 / Married 5/00 Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06 4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
You have some amazing, strong insights into not only my situation, but everyone else on here. It always astonishes me how much you "get" people without even seeing them face to face. Listen, I don't know what kind of career moves you have in mind in this new stage of your life coming up..... but I think you'd be well-suited to be in this line of work, listening, validating, and asking the thought-provoking questions. As our British friends on here like to say, "Spot on, old chap!"- although I'd paraphrase it to "Spot on, young lady!" I'm going to do some thinking about all you've said above, and so help me, I'm going to figure out the whole quoting, then responding thing. It makes it so easy to follow along and respond to each thing.
Anyway.... hang in there, 25. In some ways, I hate that your helping on here forces you to drag up such painful areas in your own past, but then again, surely there's healing to be found in that. And I close with this cute thing my sister just texted me.....
No texts? I understand. No calls? I understand. No time for me? I understand. When you see me with someone else, I hope you understand.
M-60 H-51 M-14 years BD 12/26/16 S 1/1/17
"First the pain, then the rising." Glennon Doyle Melton
the L your h hired & who emailed you for info, she MIGHT be churning fees to "confirm/verify" the identity of your L.
Or there's a legit reason to confirm, like she thinks your h is flaky, disorganized, etc.
Or she has to hear it from you, with local customs in place, etc.
I doubt that in this particular sitch, your h is playing a game on purpose.
Thanks, 25. It's just so bizarre to me. I don't think there are any rules about confirming. I hadn't thought of the flaky/unreliable thing but maybe that's it. H was in some sort of a fog where rationality seemed to be far from him, so maybe that's continued and his L picked up on it.
The other thing is that H didn't seem to truly believe anything I did, including signing a lease for an apartment, moving, not returning his calls. It's like he had a narrative in his mind of what I'd do (cling, contact, harass, beg, plead), and evidence to the contrary just didn't seem to register. So it's also possible he told his L that he didn't believe I had a L, even though I sent H his name and phone number.
I'll stop hijacking. I'll journal in my thread when I'm feeling up to it. Now to my darling Leahsue.
Leah, my love, I see that mindreading/expectations combination happening again. Whenever that gears up, you seem to react to it in a way that you push your H away before he can hurt you further.
There's another poster on this forum that has a pattern and once she starts fixating, she does things to push her H away. And the key to not pushing him away is to stop her own thoughts that are working against her interests. That's where the negativity always starts, and I see a pattern with you, too. She cycles. She'll stop it temporarily, but then familiar messages start firing in her brain and she's off and running without even noticing that she's repeating her pattern.
With that pushing away, there's a difference between seeing a healthy strong state of mind with an awareness of our boundaries, and acting out toward another person that has us sitting in the victim chair. I think you think you're doing the former, but it looks like the latter to me (and to your H, too, I bet.)
I think it's fantastic that he's coming when you have plans, and I wish you'd embrace that as something positive (versus anything punitive.)
Overall, I think 25 is onto something with the concept of your H's shame. Your H's ego seemed to need some boosting over the past year, and his job was something that was making him feel great: needed, wanted, virile, smart, successful, etc. To him it's not just a job; it's validation of his worth and that he's still "got it."
And maybe he got a little full of himself and that's why he tried out an A. His ego needed more boosting but he wasn't aware of that.
So here he is. He lives in another part of the country, he knows he's hurt you and he may not even understand why he did it (and he knows you'd deserve an explanation at some point) and any visit is going to be super high stakes. Can you think of it from his perspective, and not take his hesitance personally? Because I don't think it's personal. I think the fact that he's in touch and wants to visit is HUGE. He still loves you, and I would love it if I saw something similar from my H. So, right now, can that be enough for you?
As for H not returning your texts, remember that you've backed off your communication recently. It would make sense that a man with a fragile ego would imitate this behavior to prove a point to you.
Remember that any returning wayward needs to see that their LBS is okay, despite the hurtful actions. This gives them the confidence to start making their way back. If they see that their LBS is hurt, angry, and upset, they are less likely to commit to making their way home.
So, Leah, you're going to have an amazing life no matter what happens with H. Do you believe that? I do. (And so does that handy man!)
If you want your H back, you've got to stop trying to show him your hurt. I know, it feels so incredibly unfair that you'd have to put your emotions on the back burner, because his choices did hurt you. But there is a time and a place, and if your H made his way back and the two of you began piecing, that is when you get to start letting him see that he hurt you.
It's an incredibly difficult balancing act. We all know that you are such a kind person and you didn't deserve any of this. We know it must be so hard for you to have to process your pain and deal with the H who is sitting on the fence but wants frequent contact.
I want you to be strong, positive, and happy, with the knowledge that your H made some poor choices. Try to humanize H, too, and remember that he's very likely scared and wrestling with his own negative emotions. And that's normal and it's not something that you should view as an insult to you. The very fact that he did what he did shows that he's struggling with some self-worth issues, and they're showing up in your R, but he's not doing what he did/does because of a value judgement about you. It's all about him. He still clearly loves you or he wouldn't be doing what he's already doing - he's in touch and wants to see you.
Embrace your life, Leah. H is an addition to that life, and the rollercoaster ups and downs are simply that. Try not to react to them or allow them to breed hurt/insecure feelings or let you develop expectations that this will all be over soon. Both of those thought patters are a trap.
Slow, steady, and positive, Leahsue. Picture yourself like Glinda the Good Witch, happy and glowing in her bubble. You've got to be Glinda, and you've got to put yourself first and love yourself and heal yourself (because right now H can't help you with that. Maybe someday he will be able to do that, once he's re-committed.) You need this perspective for your own good and to best set the stage for a timid H to start making definitive steps toward you.
The grand gesture from a wayward who is now certain of wanting to recommit does not usually come without some baby steps, where they need some reassurance that it's okay to approach. Can you see what your H is doing as baby steps? And he's scared to take those steps because of his own reasons, not because you're not worth his effort.
I love your sister's text, and that she's sending you inspiring words, but I cringed a bit because those words are very much from a victim stance. Someone can not call and not text, and it can be for reasons on their end that are not at all insulting or punitive. However, I will agree that the lack of contact means you can move on if you want. But there's a difference between making decisions from strength, and a passive aggressive one-upmanship.
Positive strength, Leah. Even when things are uncertain. You are no-one's victim, and you can look at someone's actions and try and not take them personally. Especially when it's your H and especially when things are fragile/back-and-forth. You can do it; I know you can.
I hope you found this helpful. I want you to be happy and I want to limit those sleepless nights. I want you to be positive and out there in the sunshine living it up. And your H is that little squirrel high up in the tree whom you're trying to coax out with some peanuts in your hand. It's going to take time for that squirrel to have the confidence to fully come your way. Your H is the same.
Holy cow, Cadence, you should write a book! I need to read this over and over again.
Leah, Anything I add will be superfluous to Cadence's words. Soak 'em up!
M 10yrs T 13yrs BD #1Oct 2015-PA between WAH and COW BD #2 April 2016-WH resumed PA, she broke it off Jan 2 2017 WH says he wants divorce April '17-Letting go 2018 D busted DD8, DS6, DS3
I know, right????? I've read it over and over! Cadence, do you make house calls? I REALLY need you to be in the guest room with a headset on while he's here. LOLOL
M-60 H-51 M-14 years BD 12/26/16 S 1/1/17
"First the pain, then the rising." Glennon Doyle Melton
Quick update- H just postponed for 4th time. He texted and said he has a meeting Monday so it looks like he'll come late Monday or Tuesday. One sentence with no punctuation etc. I think it's probably best that I don't respond just yet. I'm not mad, just don't have any bright, cheery thing to say.
The good thing is, at least now it won't interfere with my girls weekend.
M-60 H-51 M-14 years BD 12/26/16 S 1/1/17
"First the pain, then the rising." Glennon Doyle Melton
