Who's fault is this again? Can I forgive her?

[Irish M]

Here are the links to my past threads. Thought I would be here for a month or two. Like they say, it's a long ride.


Post 1 - Wife goes deep into the tunnel

Post 2 - Wife still in the tunnel... more fog

Post 3 - No clue where wife is can't see past the fog

Post 4 - 2016 a new year .. Getting out of my own fog

Post 5 - Finding myself and leaving my wife to her MLC

Post 6 - A new day is approaching

Post 7 - Me and my 2 daughters

Post 8 - XW showing signs or just MLC script


Post 9 - 2017 - New Year - Same MLC but i'm moving along


Post 10 - Looking for a miracle

[Irish M]

Hi Everyone.

Back from my business trip, it went very well. Everything but the messages I had received from XW.
Vapo,
Yes, forgiving her will set me free, I believe that and I truly think I will get there. One day… I am however not there yet because she continues to blame the girls. When she attacks them I put on the gloves in my mind ready to defend. I however don’t. I wait and then answer with truth in a calm manner. These answers to her are getting smaller and smaller since I am so tired of repeating myself.

Peace,
Very good questions
“What do you think your XW needs to do to get the girls to be willing to talk to her?
Is it a possibility of this happening the way she is now?”
XW has asked me this weeks ago on what she needs to do. I always answered her. Put the girls first.
I won’t tell her to leave OM even if I know the girls won’t go anywhere near him.
She needs to get her act together, stop blaming them, seek professional help and of course be without OM or XMIL. Thanks a full plate for XW to fill. It’s not in her character. She is the typical avoid and forget.. Pretend nothing happened and don’t ever bring it up.

As for the road map. I’ve tried to help her. She refuses. She sees it as controlling and manipulation. It’s all up to her. I’ve giving her tips and small hints but I won’t hold her hand.

Hi Roist.
It is hard seeing her back to square one. They say they cycle and each time hopefully it gets shorter and shorter the cycles until either they are lost or they have a breakthrough and do the work.
Your point 2-3, I’ve told her multiple times. The girls did nothing wrong. That her excuse of leaving being put on their shoulders is wrong.
Point 6 – I will one day forgive her. I need to see something positive from her. A real movement to get better and connect. I long for that peace. Forgiving doesn’t mean forgetting I know. To me forgiving has to be planted by her so I can help it grow.
Roist , your thoughts and comments are truly helpful. I appreciate you dropping in. Thanks

Bttrfly and Job, thanks for keeping track or my post... Lol Always can count on you too.

I replied to XW before getting on the plane heading home.

XW, you ask if I forgive you. I think you see that I respond to your messages and I do reply with no anger. I know it’s hard to tell via texts. I see that as an action me replying to you. I didn’t shut the door.
The last time we spoke face to face was in Aug 2015. Texting is still not the best method of communicating and often gets misinterpreted.
Back to your question, to forgive you, I still think you need to accept what you did first. Stop blaming the girls or scaring them. That would be a great start. Also Let’s try to find a better way to communicate. I will leave that up to you to decide the how and when. Have a good day, Irish

I get home, no reply to me. I do however expect the girls to get a message. It happens each time I give her a hint.

The girls and I enjoy a nice dinner, got caught up and then the discussion about their mom.
Guess who wrote us today dad, Mom did again. She is blaming us still for the reason she left. She also said we all make mistakes. What mistakes did we do dad?
They showed me the message.


Hi girls,
I want to apologize for all that has happened and is still happening. I never wanted to scare you. I never wanted to hurt you. If you give me the chance we can discuss it. I don’t want to text; we can better communicate face to face. We can try therapy together and get help. I know you didn’t like the last therapist your father arranged for us but we can find another one. You are growing up so fast and becoming adults. Time goes by so fast. What can I do to win you back? We all make mistakes and you guys did as well. I can forgive you. Can you forgive me? I love you guys more than anything in the world.

Mom xxx

Most of her message was taken from my suggestions about me and her communicating. I guess she thought it was good enough to copy and use for herself.
Now the therapist she is talking about was the social worker I got to help her rebuild a relationship with the girls because she was cutting out. She lied to them and insulted the girls. Then she cancelled all help. It wasn’t that the girls didn’t like them. It was XW.

D16 wanted to write her. Telling her to F off. I told her she will get nothing from that and she shouldn’t. They asked me to write to her instead..

So, in a short text I wrote.

XW, you still can’t accept sole responsibility for your broken relationship with your girls. Also you have yet to accept that you left them for OM. Please stop blaming the girls and making them feel guilt or make them questions themselves. They are amazing girls and I won’t let you continuously blame them.

I don’t expect a reply.

good to be back home.. now 6 days off. the girls have 4. Should be albe to catch up on the outside work... pool is number one priority.

[bttrfly]

Hi {{{{{Irish}}}}}
I'm glad your trip went well and you're now home again.

Here are my promised thoughts:

Point 6 – I will one day forgive her. I need to see something positive from her. A real movement to get better and connect. I long for that peace. Forgiving doesn’t mean forgetting I know. To me forgiving has to be planted by her so I can help it grow.

I am going to ask you a favor, mon ami. Could you try to do something for me please? Could you try to look at this situation from a slightly different angle? Would you agree that your ex is not well? That she may have something affecting her psychologically so that she stays in this unbroken loop of deflection onto others for what she's done herself? If you agree that she's not well, then compassion comes into play and with that comes a different kind of forgiveness - the kind that will bring you peace.

Vapo,
Yes, forgiving her will set me free, I believe that and I truly think I will get there. One day… I am however not there yet because she continues to blame the girls. When she attacks them I put on the gloves in my mind ready to defend. I however don’t. I wait and then answer with truth in a calm manner. These answers to her are getting smaller and smaller since I am so tired of repeating myself.

I get it Papa Bear. I really do. Heck, she ticks me off when she blames the girls and I don't even know them! I always admire your restraint and your carefully thought out and well chosen responses to Ex. I know it's exhausting.

Irish, my point here is that you are giving her power over your peace: you say you need to see something from her before you can forgive her. Can you see how that robs you? Please, don't let that continue. You've come through so much, you deserve so very much more. You had no control over ex's mlc, or her abysmal choices and actions. You have ABSOLUTE control over your own ability to forgive or not. We all come to forgiveness in our own time, and at our own pace. I know that for me it's been a back and forth thing - sometimes I think there's nothing to forgive, and sometimes I think I will never forgive exh for what he's put our son through. But truly, compassion and forgiveness go hand in hand. If you aren't ready to forgive her yet, then maybe can you feel compassion for a person who has alienated themselves so far from their family that they have to resort to drive-bys and text messages, and lies to make themselves feel better? You who are so compassionate towards others can surely do this. I know you can and I know it will bring you the peace you deserve.

Bttrfly and Job, thanks for keeping track or my post... Lol Always can count on you too.

yes, you can!
I think your reply to your ex was a good one.

Most of her message was taken from my suggestions about me and her communicating. I guess she thought it was good enough to copy and use for herself.

She's paying attention, Irish. That's a good sign.

So, in a short text I wrote.

XW, you still can’t accept sole responsibility for your broken relationship with your girls. Also you have yet to accept that you left them for OM. Please stop blaming the girls and making them feel guilt or make them questions themselves. They are amazing girls and I won’t let you continuously blame them.

I don’t expect a reply.

Really? I expect you'll get one and it won't be all that pretty. I don't think she's ready to hear any criticism of her actions, but time will tell.

good to be back home.. now 6 days off. the girls have 4. Should be albe to catch up on the outside work... pool is number one priority.

Enjoy your time off with your girls. Funny you mention the pool. I actually finally got myself to the local pool tonight and swam almost a 1/4 mile, trying to shut my brain off. It felt pretty good.

I'm sorry that peace is eluding you too my friend. We will both get there someday.

[roist]

I like how bttrfly wanted you to consider her being sick or emotionally inapt. I personally se my W as being unwell. I believe she isn't well and her behavior towards me reflects that. This is not excuse making nor giving a free pass it helps me to think she is doing the best she can, even if that is not good enough. This enables me to respond compassionately and with empathy.

I think your W is not well. That should be the foundation where forgiveness can be fostered. Forgiveness is a choice and should not be reliant on a specific return. It is about you. It does not change the past but can help improve the future. It does not diminish the work W has ahead of her. But she is in therapy and is reaching out consistently or at least regularly.

I am sure your girls have at some stage annoyed you with some behaviour or incident. That is normal. You have not dwelled on such occurrences and have fostered a superb relationship with them. I say this to point out that W is not entirely wrong in her statement about them doing stuff that contributed. I reiterate she is wrong to blame them and only wanted to point out another perspective.

Also her trying to get them to share the blame could be considered as a misguided attempt to get on the same team as them. He and them contributed and all three can work together to rebuild a R. I do not agree with this approach and she does need to take more ownership of the R, butmaybe just maybe it was not to blame them just to blame them, but an effort to create a common link and hence starting point.

You were right to push back at her . I have mixed opinions on you replying for your girls.

You are a great dad and the girls are lucky to have you. Would you have been such a great dad or have such a close R with your daughters if your W had not left? You don't have to answer but I suspect your R with the girls was enhanced by having gone through this. A super silver lining for a big dark cloud .

Best wishes

[Gordie]

Irish, as others have said, your patience and constraint with your XW inspires me. I wish I could offer some helpful advice but have nothing to offer except my support.

[Irish M]

Hi Gordie.

likewise my friend. We do have different MLCrs in our lives but I see that you are a good man and father. I respect that more than anything in the world. A parents who is a true parent. Keep doing what you are doing. Planting those positive seeds. Hopefully your Wife is one of the those who will do the work during her crisis and after her crisis to fix her life and those of your children. Prayers are with you.

Hi bttrfly.. yes papa bear is always on duty..

as for her replying .. Zip-A-Dee-Do-Dah! Nada! and my day is still beautiful.

Truth darts don't do her well. I needed to get it off my chest and if she wants to let it spin around in her head and say nothing I have no worries. I take and give what I want, I expect her to do the same.

yes to you both Bttrfly and Roist on her being not well. I know this. I also know that her current entourage, including XMIL are not going to help her in anyway. OM is an MLCr as well. So they play nicely into each other self pity. It is going to be a long time before she see's any clarity.

Her mom has never recovered from her own MLC.. completely changed personality and became unloving and selfish.

I've had the rose colored glasses off for quite some time now. I recall the last few years together with XW , some occasions her moms personality would take over her own. I'd say, my god you are just like your mother. I know, I know, no woman wants to hear that. lol but XW hated her mom. said she would never be as cold and as uncaring. Well.. nearly 2 years ago the transition took full swing and she became her mom.

Yesterday , I bumped into an old friend of mine and XW. She said she was in XW place of employment to place an ad in the paper. This was before XW transferred an hour away to another work location. This friend knew we had separated and her daughter knows my daughter. She is also aware that XW does not see her kids.

After some small talk , this friend says to me:

Can i tell you something . I saw your XW. About 2 months ago at her work. I brought the topic of your kids up because it bothered me , her not seeing them. I said to her that it must be tough not seeing them. I know how close you were to them and never let them out of your site. How are you doing with all this?

She said XW look totally lost to that comment and question. No emotion. Didnt even blink. Lost dark look in her eyes. XW replied.

Oh well...It is what it is. Life changes and if those who don;t agree don't want to follow. Too bad for them, So about that ad?

My friend was so taken back by this. Could this be the same mother she knew that loved her kids more than anything in the world. Not even a flicker of hurt or loss . It was like she was a teen saying haters back off.

I told her, XW has chosen her new life. Hope she figures it out one day.


That came when I started to forget once again that XW is sick. No way in H3LL would the old XW do this to her kids or even reply in such an uncaring way. What scares me is her mother didn't come out in one piece.. My expectation for XW are the same.

In Canada its a long weekend. This is day 3 of my mini vacation. Its sunny but cool.
The waling giants are in town so its a day not to miss.

hope you are all doing well, sleeping better and eating healthy.. remember , it does get better.

[peacetoday]

Irish

I tend to think the MLCer follows the script of their parents
especially if parents did the same

unless they get serious help and stick to it
BUT
I think many of them get some help but can't break the MLC cycle

Because none of us have really experienced MLC ourselves, we can't get a real view of how hard is is on them and how incapable they are at recovering

Only time will tell if she will be able to get herself better
even slightly to create a "new" relationship with the girls
She seems to pop out often and she understands she misses them, but just as often she seems to slide back into replay with no real work done

Her words to the old friend just seem like defense mechanisms
and her blank stare is the MLCer state

We all are rooting for her-

[25yearsmlc]

IRISH

your ex's comment about the kids not following her and "it is what it is", etc, struck me

True Story - 10 years ago there was a "room mom" (classroom volunteer in charge) at d19's school and she was really INTO it. I mean, super hyper about the classroom parties and activities and she was mega controlling. But kindhearted.

I would sometimes laugh to myself b/c, you know, the kids were in 3rd grade!

We parents really can figure out how much turkey to serve at Thanksgiving, etc. But Room mom would get very worried and concerned about the smallest of things...

Later on that year, she had some type of breakdown and was hospitalized. She came out of the hospital much calmer and at peace...but that changed too.

In the past decade she has had several OM's, smoked a ton of pot,

and has been treated for nervous exhaustion (another breakdown, I think), she heavily explored drug use, and she was arrested a few times. Also got beaten at least once, by some OM.

There was never a divorce b/c her h is older, and had a feeling she'd need help someday...not enabling so much as catching her when she'd fall...

She's now living with her ex h, and their d20 but they are not sharing a bed. As far as I can tell, She's like a dependent child living with a father figure and a sister (except it's her daughter).

My point is, people can change and remain changed. I worry about the assumption that the term "MLC" means the MLCer person will return to who they were before.

My h won't, and this "Room mom" won't. How could they?

Irish, I'm so glad you are not waiting for that and you are GAL.

[25yearsmlc]

PS

Irish,

Accuracy posted something on my thread that relates to your "forgiveness equation".

You want your w to tell your girls that she left them for OM. Why? That's horrible (even it is were true).

Look , I see my h as choosing a place (Alaska) over our marriage and family, twice.

Accuray's point to me was I need to stick to the facts without attaching MY story to them.

Fact: H went to live in Alaska.

H's story maybe - In h's head, he did not choose Alaska OVER me and our family...

Maybe He wanted both...and I refused to again join him. Therefore he was a victim.


My guess is that your w does not think she chose OM Over her d's, but chose OM over you.

I agree she should not mention the "Girls's mistakes" at all. Just deal with her failings as a mom.

But why do you insist that she frame the story the way You want it? She obviously has her own side.

Why not just keep her on track with spending time with the girls, while not blaming them for anything?

Just curious.

[bttrfly]

Hi Gordie.

Hi bttrfly.. yes papa bear is always on duty..

as for her replying .. Zip-A-Dee-Do-Dah! Nada! and my day is still beautiful.

so is Mama Bear here ...

She said XW look totally lost to that comment and question. No emotion. Didnt even blink. Lost dark look in her eyes.

shark eyes

zero expectations are best

In Canada its a long weekend. This is day 3 of my mini vacation. Its sunny but cool.
The waling giants are in town so its a day not to miss.

what the heck is a waling giant?