25 yearsMLC 10 years late I FILE part 2

[25yearsmlc]

180

I hear you. (Oh, geez I just realized I've been paying for his/her phone and mine, which was my "Christmas gift" both on my credit card. Excellent).

So now it's her only phone (a pricey iPhone & I ought to know).

So I asked her partner to take the phone and delete the messages, b/c they're not healthy for d19. She agreed.

I think d19 took a screen shot of it...which just so $ucks. She's gay and so she'll associate his rejection with that, I THINK.. D19 was troubled and had a temper, and imo, her being gay is, IN H's opinion a bad reflection on him. I think he's ashamed of her, although I have seen efforts on his end to overcome that. (Hey, I'm not giving him an award, just admitting that he's never condemned her and will tell anyone who gives her crap, that it's none of their business and I have one BIL who says "Christians must condemn gays". H and I were totally on the same page with that idiot).

My guess is it's more that d19 is angry at him b/c she saw more crap from him than the older ones did. She suspects other A's (and she might be right).

She just sent me a text telling me I'm a 'Star mother" and that she is "proud of me and so glad" I'm not with her dad.

I don't feel vindicated, but I feel sad for her and on the other hand, I also do feel loved. Oh Christ...

Hmm, that's a tough one. My older B is gay. He has never told me, but my M told my W and I several years ago. I kind of figured as much, but whatever. Never talked about it with my F at all, I got the impression from my M that he initially rejected the idea but came around to accept it. My M and B are victims, that's their nature. If you ever needed to study the art of the guilt trip, they would be the first ones to observe.

Shame usually breeds secrets, and they get harder to hide. Then more secrets to hide the first secrets, etc. I'm just saying this this^^ is a whole lot of "not saying" .

I read this quote and I'm paraphrasing it...

Disclosure builds intimacy. The less we share of ourselves, the less we are known, and the more shallow our connections.


To my knowledge my F never said anything to my B about it, nor held anything against him. I suspect he was probably disappointed, perhaps in himself, I'm not sure. I'd ask him but he had a stroke two years ago and has been in a nursing home since.

so it's too late to ask, now? Not to hammer the point too much, but damn...this is the cost of the secret. To be clear, I'm referring to the gay B, not the rest of the stuff your mom sort of knows but does not need details of.


Can't talk, I don't even know how much of him is still in there. My W's step-father met the same fate two weeks after BD. MIL is now taking care of him all the time, plus working two jobs, plus trying to keep kids in line...telling my W to unfùck herself is now a low priority, as much as MIL is on my side. Wow, am I rambling or what?! Sorry!!

I was angry when I was your D's age. It took a girl breaking up with me to really calm me down. I don't know what I was angry about...it was just in there for some reason. You can't do anything about your H's view on D19's lifestyle choice.

well, I asked d19 if she thought any of her sexuality was related to her poor r with her dad. She said "it didn't help." She had a boyfriend before but in any case, some will chime in about how being gay is not a choice. I KNOW THIS...she is also attracted to men, or was, so there's a preference in there somewhere.

Our older d also declared herself bisexual around the same time h left for his 2nd year away (Just checking a job out" - never admitting that he was missing her junior and senior years of high school),

When she came out, and discussed the boys she had dated, she also said "men have hurt" her more than women.
When both daughters told me they were not straight, (but they are very different and i don't mean to just lump them into one group),

I know for a brief day or so, it crossed h's mind that he might have played a part in their discomfort with men. Whatttt???

Not so much their attraction to women but for sure their fear of loving a man. I mean, they said that. This isn't guess work. But he couldn't "go there", way too painful and maybe, well imo, H is more concerned with how he is seen than whether he's done wrong.

That whole difference between guilt (you know you did wrong, even if no one finds out) and shame (worrying that others will find out AND reject you or see you in another light, is your worst fear, not the content of the action)....

Shame played/plays a huge role in h's life now more than ever. To hear his narrative of our m...we all know there are different perspectives but my God, his is WAY off of my kids and my own recall. S30 said h is mentally ill and I balked. S30 said "mom, look at him. He substitutes his reality for ours...good riddance to lunacy."

So 180...what do you think the role shame AND OR secrets played in your family? Is your gay brother close to anyone in the family? Does he have a committed partner?

I don't know him at all, obviously. But I feel an estranged loneliness for him. And since your parents never addressed what was under the rug they had swept things,

I bet you can see why your w's fears mounted. Maybe to her, the strokes meant eternally unresolved issues.




Everyone who makes that choice has to deal with it in one form another. I'm not saying that's good or bad, it is what it is. But you are a Star Mother for caring about her and asking her partner to clean out the texts!

thanks

180,

that's a lousy experience to recall. (Sorry). I'm intrigued that you never mentioned it to your dad.

So, the model of marriage you had growing up wasn't exactly something positive to emulate, was it?

Eh, it's okay. Not as bad as when my W and I drove up to my parent's house after the stroke and found a briefcase of sex toys my F had stashed in the garage which he had, presumably, been sharing with his old secretary. W and I never told my M, we drove down the street and threw it in a dumpster. She found out about the A, but the least we could do was spare her that discovery.



My parents fought a lot when I was young. Nothing physical, just lots of yelling. Consequently, I hate yelling.

A lot of us learned what "not to do", but we tend to revert to it when stressed OR we do the opposite. H for sure either yelled or kept it to himself in his emotional backpack where he could seethe, then lose his $hit in a huge over reaction b/c it was really about things he'd been accumulating,

or he'd do what is called "Collusion" in which he'd complain to others about me or something I did or did not do, but never tell ME, the appropriate audience. I've pondered this behavior a lot. Here is why it's so destructive.

(And I'm not referring to a few minutes of venting to our peeps, which is normal and probably healthy). But the complaints that are never shared with the correct target, like your spouse or your boss, co-worker, is unfair to the target, and its disloyal. Ever wonder who spoke of your b's life, or your wife & you, lately?

I think H did it to get buy in from his bff, b/c for one thing, his bff is also MY friend and bff's wife is close to me. So he wanted to lay the groundwork for heading off to Alaska, and justifying nearly daring me to file. OR he just passively hoped others would pass on the criticisms and that way, h wouldn't have to own anything.

Either way, what a jerk.

The disloyalty of this^^ and the failure to show up for me when I was so sick, felt worse to ME, than anything else short of hitting me. (I filed before news of OW came out)

Some argue about how A's are the "worst thing ever, the biggest betrayal, most disrespectful" etc. I am weary and leery of black and white rules like that.( I mean, they can speak for themselves, you know?)

To be clear, yes I hate A's too. They're gut wrenching. I get it.

But I can at least I understand the temptation. (There's an appeal). Heck, 25 years ago I almost had an A. It was Desrt Storm and we were both Active duty. 2 little kids at the time.

I was so lonely, that it hurt. H was irritable when he was actually home, He worked 80+ hours a week, every week and there was no end in sight. One week I counted his hours away at work and it was 96, plus he read for a case when he came home. So he still wasn't present.

Those are insane hours and it's awfully hard on families too.

I still come close to justifying the A too, based on this^^^ his irritability when he was home, which was rare. I mean he wasn't exactly grateful for MY sacrifices, as he fell asleep at the table, often. The "almost A" was about MY PAIN and the temptation of an attentive OM, not my "disrespect" for h or the marriage. I think i did resent H for the situation sat some level, but not consciously.

But I digress...

Deserting a sick spouse, the one who bore your children, the backstabbing about you, that takes time and thought and isn't a momentary lapse. It'd be awfully hard to overcome this.

I TRY to imagine retcons just so I can say "never say never". So I can always say I'm open hearted.

But even if all the work in the world happened in h's heart and mind, even if he woke up and did all the work needed - I would not believe it to be effective till a few years had passed.

*So maybe in your situation, maybe it really is a thing where you back off, each get space and touch base now and then...until she sees that the you were close and bonded, for a reason.



Was definitely a shock when I went through OCS, hah. They toned down as I got older and by the time I was in college they really seemed to get along like great friends a lot of the time. I know there was still plenty of arguing, but as much as they bítched about each other, I would watch them at dinner and they really got along well sometimes. Let's just say that I thought I had learned what NOT to do from my parents....but....my R went flat instead and now I'm here. At least the dog still likes me, I think...

Learning what not to do, is helpful. I strongly believe that learning what TO DO, is more important. Why?

Because in times of stress, we revert to what we know OR we avoid anything remotely resembling it, too much.

G, a dear friend of mine, (H's bff) is perhaps the best h and best father I know. He's about 50 and he's always been a sensitive fair thoughtful guy.

G's role model for what Not to do, was his own dad. G's dad impregnanted his OW so that when G was 9, he watched his mom cry, his parents divorce and his father introduce the OW (now his W#2) as his new family. G was supposed to accept her without much time, and also welcome his new baby brother.

A few years later G's dad got a divorce and G was supposed to adjust again. His dad remarried wife #3, Sally. His dad and Sally remained married for some time. That's when I knew G's dad, and he was borderline weird. I recall him saying something like "Who wears the pants in this family?" And this was in modern times, you know?
Stuck out in my recall of course.

So fast forward a few years and Sally left G's dad. His dad just fell apart. I mean, he was very controlling and domineering and seemed strong,

but when his 3rd m fell apart, so did he. Eventually, after draining those around him for some time, G's dad took his own life.

Lousy, right? YES it was lousy. So how did G become the best dad/h that I know?? He sure knew what NOT to do, but how'd he learn how to to the right thing?

He found a few role models. He had a role model for being a good dad/h from his FIL, and he learned about fathering from his kids' coaches and he learned about how to handle stress from a deacon at church. So that when life threw him a curve ball, which it did, he had positive paths and options to choose from, that he already knew.

Last week there was a photo of G and his family on FB. Not a posed one either. Just them walking on the beach with their adult kids, and their spouses, and 2 grand kids.

I was happy and then mournful and then envious. I confessed this to them. I recall thinking that "it could have been h and me." So, 180, keep up your work for 2 reasons.

1) b/c it'll make you a better man. Period.

2) b/c your w might look your way and see that consistent changes were made, over time, so she can believe them to be real, and lasting.

She can come to believe only with time and change, that you guys are not destined to be your parents.

While you are at it, contrast any of those negative images that you can. If your dad was a fat sloth then you come the slim fit guy.

You get the point.

Hang in there.

[25yearsmlc]

Dang 180, I thought this post was on your thread.

Oh well...

[180Man]

Dang 180, I thought this post was on your thread.

Oh well...

Ahhh, sorry we got so mixed up with threads tonight. I was trying hard not to hijack!!

so it's too late to ask, now? Not to hammer the point too much, but damn...this is the cost of the secret. To be clear, I'm referring to the gay B, not the rest of the stuff your mom sort of knows but does not need details of.

Pretty much. Honestly, if I could ask him only one question I'm pretty sure my B's sexual identity doesn't even get close to the list. Not sure what question I would want to ask, but it's probably just as well since I'm not sure going through that mental exercise is going to be helpful or fun.

well, I asked d19 if she thought any of her sexuality was related to her poor r with her dad. She said "it didn't help." She had a boyfriend before but in any case, some will chime in about how being gay is not a choice. I KNOW THIS...she is also attracted to men, or was, so there's a preference in there somewhere.

Our older d also declared herself bisexual around the same time h left for his 2nd year away (Just checking a job out" - never admitting that he was missing her junior and senior years of high school),

When she came out, and discussed the boys she had dated, she also said "men have hurt" her more than women.
When both daughters told me they were not straight, (but they are very different and i don't mean to just lump them into one group),

I know for a brief day or so, it crossed h's mind that he might have played a part in their discomfort with men. Whatttt???

Not so much their attraction to women but for sure their fear of loving a man. I mean, they said that. This isn't guess work. But he couldn't "go there", way too painful and maybe, well imo, H is more concerned with how he is seen than whether he's done wrong.

That whole difference between guilt (you know you did wrong, even if no one finds out) and shame (worrying that others will find out AND reject you or see you in another light, is your worst fear, not the content of the action)....

That is really interesting and intense. My B had a girlfriend in high school who dumped him after a year or so, I think. I believe he also had some serious feelings for a girl in college but it didn't work out for whatever reason. Not sure why and I never asked. Based on what you're saying, I wonder if my M caused my B some sort of issues influencing his desire to be gay? Idk. Waaaaaay out of my wheelhouse! You H probably feels a whole range of feelings about this topic with respect to your Ds. He probably feels guilt AND shame AND fear AND lots of others. Not having had any kids I'm completely speaking out of turn, but despite everything else going on I'd say it's fair to give them the benefit of the doubt if you think it's reasonable to do so.

[color:#3333FF] Shame played/plays a huge role in h's life now more than ever. To hear his narrative of our m...we all know there are different perspectives but my God, his is WAY off of my kids and my own recall. S30 said h is mentally ill and I balked. S30 said "mom, look at him. He substitutes his reality for ours...good riddance to lunacy."

So 180...what do you think the role shame AND OR secrets played in your family? Is your gay brother close to anyone in the family? Does he have a committed partner?

I don't know him at all, obviously. But I feel an estranged loneliness for him. And since your parents never addressed what was under the rug they had swept things,

I bet you can see why your w's fears mounted. Maybe to her, the strokes meant eternally unresolved issues.

S30 may be dead on. But I'll tell you what...I really really wish I could call my Dad up right now and ask him to drive down here for a weekend and help me work on the house. I wouldn't need to talk to him about my M, but it'd be nice to have a Dad still, flawed or not. Two years ago, however, I wouldn't have seen it this way. I would have been pretty neutral with respect to my whole side of the family.

A lot of us learned what "not to do", but we tend to revert to it when stressed OR we do the opposite. H for sure either yelled or kept it to himself in his emotional backpack where he could seethe, then lose his $hit in a huge over reaction b/c it was really about things he'd been accumulating,

or he'd do what is called "Collusion" in which he'd complain to others about me or something I did or did not do, but never tell ME, the appropriate audience. I've pondered this behavior a lot. Here is why it's so destructive.

(And I'm not referring to a few minutes of venting to our peeps, which is normal and probably healthy). But the complaints that are never shared with the correct target, like your spouse or your boss, co-worker, is unfair to the target, and its disloyal. Ever wonder who spoke of your b's life, or your wife & you, lately?

I think H did it to get buy in from his bff, b/c for one thing, his bff is also MY friend and bff's wife is close to me. So he wanted to lay the groundwork for heading off to Alaska, and justifying nearly daring me to file. OR he just passively hoped others would pass on the criticisms and that way, h wouldn't have to own anything.

Either way, what a jerk.

The disloyalty of this^^ and the failure to show up for me when I was so sick, felt worse to ME, than anything else short of hitting me. (I filed before news of OW came out)

Some argue about how A's are the "worst thing ever, the biggest betrayal, most disrespectful" etc. I am weary and leery of black and white rules like that.( I mean, they can speak for themselves, you know?)

To be clear, yes I hate A's too. They're gut wrenching. I get it.

But I can at least I understand the temptation. (There's an appeal). Heck, 25 years ago I almost had an A. It was Desrt Storm and we were both Active duty. 2 little kids at the time.

I was so lonely, that it hurt. H was irritable when he was actually home, He worked 80+ hours a week, every week and there was no end in sight. One week I counted his hours away at work and it was 96, plus he read for a case when he came home. So he still wasn't present.

Those are insane hours and it's awfully hard on families too.

I still come close to justifying the A too, based on this^^^ his irritability when he was home, which was rare. I mean he wasn't exactly grateful for MY sacrifices, as he fell asleep at the table, often. The "almost A" was about MY PAIN and the temptation of an attentive OM, not my "disrespect" for h or the marriage. I think i did resent H for the situation sat some level, but not consciously.

But I digress...

Deserting a sick spouse, the one who bore your children, the backstabbing about you, that takes time and thought and isn't a momentary lapse. It'd be awfully hard to overcome this.

I TRY to imagine retcons just so I can say "never say never". So I can always say I'm open hearted.

But even if all the work in the world happened in h's heart and mind, even if he woke up and did all the work needed - I would not believe it to be effective till a few years had passed.

I flew to Germany in 2011 after my W had been medevac'd. We spent the next year in and out of doctor's appointments, I went to pretty much every appointment she had. She was facing a medical discharge. I was facing an 8+ month deployment and a W losing her career and living far away from our families while having medical issues. A buddy of mine suggested I look into the Guard or Reserves. Long story short, I thought finding a Guard/Reserve unit near her family would help us. I figured I could work for these guys and we could be close to her parents. A guard unit offered me a job. I was selfish in the fact that the jobs I was looking at with these units were going to be doing things that sounded cooler than what I was doing. The grass looked really really green for me then. W ended up being able to stay in and I kept doing what I was doing...but W always held it against me that I tried to jump ship and use her as an excuse to get out of active duty. That wasn't my reason to start with, but that's what it turned into. I was also scared of what the active duty side was asking me to go through at the time. The Guard job I was offered would have really set me up well for a civilian job. It WAS selfish, but it also wasn't. I still feel guilty about it. This is the opposite extreme from your H and we both screwed up.

*So maybe in your situation, maybe it really is a thing where you back off, each get space and touch base now and then...until she sees that the you were close and bonded, for a reason.

This is such a depressing and yet positive thought. My brain still has trouble coping with this new reality. I pray that you're right but I'm not sure I have the strength to make it through what you describe.

Learning what not to do, is helpful. I strongly believe that learning what TO DO, is more important. Why?

Because in times of stress, we revert to what we know OR we avoid anything remotely resembling it, too much.

G, a dear friend of mine, (H's bff) is perhaps the best h and best father I know. He's about 50 and he's always been a sensitive fair thoughtful guy.

G's role model for what Not to do, was his own dad. G's dad impregnanted his OW so that when G was 9, he watched his mom cry, his parents divorce and his father introduce the OW (now his W#2) as his new family. G was supposed to accept her without much time, and also welcome his new baby brother.

A few years later G's dad got a divorce and G was supposed to adjust again. His dad remarried wife #3, Sally. His dad and Sally remained married for some time. That's when I knew G's dad, and he was borderline weird. I recall him saying something like "Who wears the pants in this family?" And this was in modern times, you know?
Stuck out in my recall of course.

So fast forward a few years and Sally left G's dad. His dad just fell apart. I mean, he was very controlling and domineering and seemed strong,

but when his 3rd m fell apart, so did he. Eventually, after draining those around him for some time, G's dad took his own life.

Lousy, right? YES it was lousy. So how did G become the best dad/h that I know?? He sure knew what NOT to do, but how'd he learn how to to the right thing?

He found a few role models. He had a role model for being a good dad/h from his FIL, and he learned about fathering from his kids' coaches and he learned about how to handle stress from a deacon at church. So that when life threw him a curve ball, which it did, he had positive paths and options to choose from, that he already knew.

Last week there was a photo of G and his family on FB. Not a posed one either. Just them walking on the beach with their adult kids, and their spouses, and 2 grand kids.

I was happy and then mournful and then envious. I confessed this to them. I recall thinking that "it could have been h and me." So, 180, keep up your work for 2 reasons.

1) b/c it'll make you a better man. Period.

2) b/c your w might look your way and see that consistent changes were made, over time, so she can believe them to be real, and lasting.

She can come to believe only with time and change, that you guys are not destined to be your parents.

While you are at it, contrast any of those negative images that you can. If your dad was a fat sloth then you come the slim fit guy.

You get the point.

Hang in there.

Pretty awful story about G's F. I'm waaay past my bedtime so I'm not sure how clearly I'm thinking right now. Sounds like G found his own good foundation and flourished from there. My FIL is a great guy, but he's very very passive. Probably too far away to have as a role model, especially now. Haven't heard from him once since all this happened. He told my W that they love her no matter what and when she relayed this to me in December she was starting to get teary eyed. I think she was upset that her F didn't have the backbone to tell her she screwed up. Or maybe she was getting teary eyed because her F loves her so much regardless of what she did? I dunno.

Hope you're right on #1 and #2. Seems like her big hangup was our intimacy dying off. Not sure how to fix that.

Sorry again for the threads getting so blurred Have a good night!

[25yearsmlc]

I'll go find your thread!

[AJM]

and b/c I felt "owed" by h

Owed? What do you feel H owed you, 25?

You're a prolific writer to be sure. It's a good thing, but have you considered writing for fun? Just asking.

As for the behavior of your H - the others have mentioned it, but just to reiterate - he's both guilty and giddy judging by his actions. And that gives way to anger for the third side of the wobbly wheel.

If you think he's angry, bitter and ugly now... just hang on a bit. He'll be vying for man of the year shortly (in his mind) by putting you down and dragging anything and everything out that occurred over the last 35 years. And even a few things that did not. There are no rules, but that seems to be fairly normal if you go by what I've seen over the years.

It's not rational. You're a lawyer. You know what kind of person you cannot negotiate with? Guess away, but it's the irrational type (in case you get stuck).

25, you are not superhuman. You will feel this for a while to come. Don't be surprised and don't be angry at yourself for it. And don't be surprised if he goes through similar in his own weird way.

When you deal with him, deal with him like he's somebody else. Be objective and not subjective or emotional. That's really a lot harder than it sounds, 25. But his emotions will get the better of him over time - it's how the law is structured.

There will be time for the other items later as well. In the meantime, limit the amount of time you allow yourself to deal with the warfare to no more than a few hours each day. No more. Less if you can. Contiguous time. The rest of the time? Try things until you find the ones that allow you to actually relax and recharge. That's your primary objective right now - to find things that help you relax (non-personally-destructive things).

Take care of that first.
AJM

[25yearsmlc]

3 "Pearls of Wisdom" I learned in the past few days --

1) "Don't put a rational spin on irrational behavior" which i took to mean, stop trying to wrap your logical or strategic brain around someone who is acting on emotion or an irrational belief or some unseen unknowable plan.

I already wasted time asking how my h cannot regret - so much-

Bottom line is, HE DOESN'T REGRET IT. While I can think that is "so wrong" - that is that. Still true.

2) I heard that certain fish will die if they stop moving.
They have some sort of "ventilation breathing" that means they have to keep moving, or they'll die.

I feel like if we stop to wallow in our sense of loss and grief, We'll be paralyzed.

Forward motion is mandatory, and to me, forward motion = GAL, mostly.

3) Stop mourning a future that wasn't likely to happen, anyway.

It's my time machine analogy. (Technically I'm the WAS but let's just say I'm the LBSer for the sake of clarity and discussion.)

So, the LBSer mourns the loss of what the marriage was, in the past. (And that is if we are lucky enough to have had that type of closeness for real. Some never do, some marriages were in a constant state of "maybe it'll get better later").

I'm lucky in this sense, b/c I know we had a solid loving marriage, we were in love, and made a good team, for many years. I do miss that, but it's gone. I also miss my deceased parents very much. But They're not coming back.

I have no time machine to go back.

OR we want the TIME MACHINE that makes us mourn the loss of a marriage we hoped for, later...a future where all would be well, or all the goals would be reached and

THEN we could be happy /spend time together, be financially secure / be romantic/ speak in each other's love languages, stop fighting & magically have solved all problems.


In the last decade I've hoped my Dbing and love (and yeah, my sacrifices) would all be worth it, that we'd return to what we once had Or that h would appreciate my loyalty and love and remember what a great catch I am. Well, if he did, it didn't last long...or his mother's cancer derailed our piecing path...

In reality, I now see that I mourned the loss of a future that was not likely to happen with this man, anyhow.

As it relates to the future, I mourned something that isn't real.

As it relates to now and how h is behaving - I would not date this man...he's not honest and he lacks empathy. His legal divorce behaviors have been needlessly aggressive and offensive. Not a great strategy, btw.

Okay I'm off to bed in a few.

Just thought I'd journal and vent here. Thanks for listening.

[25yearsmlc]

AJM

I will respond to your post more completely soon. (Sort of did in my "pearls")

"OWED" I was quoting someone else actually. But I do think if I'm really honest subconsciously I may have felt H would be happy, loyal and grateful for the love I had shown him to recon with him 10 years ago. I let go of a lot of his MLC behavior...I forgave. In hindsight, a part of me feels like the reward for turning the other cheek was getting slapped on the other cheek.

(I'm not sure I'm defending this belief, just admitting a part of me feels this way.)

Yes, I'm surprised by h's behavior. I thought he'd begin with indignation at spousal support but that his L would "splain" to him that it's a 35 year marriage and this is the law, etc. To quit this GREAT JOB just to avoid paying me...I mean, WOW...this is a workaholic MD...then again, maybe with the new OW he feels like relaxing more...

But I'll work on NOT being surprised. I have a few items in the back of my mind that I think he'll throw at me, and it'll be like mutually assured destruction. Considering that he believes I can make "easily more than he earns", now, you'd think he would not sign off on public documents that are not always easy to seal. I mean, that kind of ruins my chances of that massive income.

But why should I think that he'll think things out first? He's angry at me (yes I think that is so ironic) and anger and fear are his primary motivators now.

Actually they have been his primary motivators (seething privately and accumulating his grievances for a long time; wanting to get buy in from his peeps who know me, and to justify to whomever he expected resistance from. He can't get it from the kids b/c you know, they were there). Anyhow, as for his fears and anger motivating him now, yeah, they have motivated him a long time, but i just didn't know this.

Fast steep learning curve for me, but I'll get there. I believe the judge has seen this stuff before. I mean, let's hope. You can never really predict. But so far, so good.

YES when this "Vacation" in CA for my evaluation is done, I will take it easy for a bit. And I'll see my older kids soon, which is a gift, however feebly wrapped.

[Woke_Up]

Of course many WAS's or MLCers ( or crappy spouses or whatever label we choose, b/c honestly I don't know what label fits h anymore. )

I have a label, but it starts with C and gets censored quite often.

[bigybiz]

25mlc:

You hit it out of the park. I will need to read and reread your post to get a full grasp of it.

Not to break protocol - I should not be talking to much about my situation on your thread so I'll give you all the highlights.

The reason I'm here is to rebuild my MR. Like the bumper sticker says be patient - God is not done with me yet.

It's a long road ahead and I own my issues and they will be taken care of no matter what happens with W.

As you stated (so well) many of us have all let our spouses issues crash intro our lives and visa versa. This has caused heartache and marital breakdown. Those bad interactions became a habit - and it only takes one to break that habit.

I don't have a scorecard per se, as part of this process I have been brought to my knees, many times, as I realize what a mess my MR is.

I won't drone on.

Look for updates on my thread.

[AJM]

25, I think the judge has seen this stuff before. I sometimes wonder how they do it. The question is how they'll react, really. I think they gather the data points over time, rather than do anything immediately. That means inconveniences while they try to be fair. At the end of it all they follow the law and leave the rest. That translates into you being harassed until the final outcome. As long as the judge follows the law, you will be ok. It's a predictable outcome.

Since you know he is motivated by fear and emotion, it actually makes things a little easier when you drop the expectations. When you drop the expectations that he'll be rational, or that you want some sort of reconciliation (of any kind). Until then, it's a bit of a roller coaster.

I understand what you mean with him 'owing' you. I get it. It's not unreasonable in many ways. Forgiveness rarely works like that. Business transactions do. They won't with him while he is in this state.

I don't think you should be so hard on yourself (bigybiz you should not either) - giving and blending is what a marriage is about. And over 35 years, it's very normal.

Everything was fine. Until it wasn't, right? To your point about the time portal? You can't go back (and in time you won't want to most likely). But you can deal with the here and now and what is. This will take time to play out in the courts, but it will play out. It's finite. Don't get tired of it, and don't get manipulated - he'll try both. But he's got a lot more energy around getting this done "his way" and it won't be in your best interest. That's to be expected. But you can outlast him and nice him to pieces.

By being nice and reasonable, you're setting the tone. By letting him run like a crazy man, complain, slander, etc. he expends energy. Let him. The judge and the lawyers will see soon enough what's going on. And if you're patient and kind and reasonable, you'll find they will work for you.

In my own case, my ex was bitter and mean and vindictive. Go figure right? By the end of things she was so impatient to 'move on' with her life, that even my lawyer wrote that into the offers. She wrote in that it would 'free her to move on and enjoy her new life.' Her lawyer helped me out on more than one occasion, although within the boundaries of the law. Nothing unethical.

Patience and kindness will be good for you in other ways as well. This kind of thing can affect your health if you're not careful and actively working to prevent that. I learned that the hard way (nothing too serious; caught early enough and made the changes needed).

I wish you the best 25!

Peace,
AJM