Am I Dreaming or Played a Fool?

[25yearsmlc]

Family came back from vacation last night. It was nice seeing my family, including my W. Missed them all.

W and I had R talk this morning, good conversation. She seems like she wants to try. My DB coach said for move slow and that ACTIONS are important not the words. IDK what actions I should be looking for. I guess they will jump out at me.

Does anyone have a good template for a NC letter? We talked about that being the first step. I just want to make sure it's good and effective.

TY!

If you want specifics, I'd ask a DB coach - they are specific, detailed in their advice and very helpful regardless of what path you choose. HER writing the NC is obviously mandatory since your text to OM failed even though he said "done" and blah blah blah.

Is your w seeking IC? Sorry if I missed that, but the heavy lifting is hers to do.


Imo, she needs real help if you think she's basically a good person, albeit one with a huge character flaw. (if you don't think she's basically a good but troubled person, but just has no integrity, then let us know). There is a personal growth workshop for individuals (helps them in all r's of course) in Philadelphia called "Essential Experience" that I thought was profoundly helpful. Like 2 years of therapy in one long weekend and made some real changes in my life. None of these things work without persistence, however. So it's not like one weekend 'fixes" everything but it can be the jumpstart for tremendous growth and change the trajectory of someone's life.

Later as a couple - if/when you get there, try a couples retreat like "Retrovaille" which is for couples in crisis, btw. You don't have to be Catholic to attend, I'm positive.

So I'd back off, focus on myself and my own GAL, DETACH, detach (and I don't know how to detach without GAL)

I'd assume for my own protection, that she won't do the needed work

but I'd hope for the best and see...

have you read the book yet?

[25yearsmlc]

What a difference a day makes!

Yesterday I felt like I was finally getting my emotions in check.

Today, a different story. It's amazing how your emotions ebb and flow during a sitch like this.

W seems to be on the good side of wanting to work it out, but she's annoying me because I think she has the just "sweep it under the rug" mentality. She not doing anything out of the ordinary to help her or me.

this^^ is a hard balancing challenge. On one hand, she's got to do a ton of work to earn your trust back and that's a fact. Work she may not realize fully or understand the pain she has caused AND OR work she wants to circumvent....neither of which is okay for your long term marriage.

on the other hand, you have to give her the chance, and the belief that someday you two will or can get past this. You cannot hold it over her head or throw it in her face every time you fight, and you will fight.

The worst choice is staying m, and miserable.

My suggestion is clarity on your end about what you need.


I have accumulated a bunch of knowledge from this forum and in the DR book and I just want to throw all the material at her, but know I can't. Should I be telling her what to do? Guiding her? or... should I sit back and wait till she gets moving. Why do I have to do the heavy lifting, when W is the one who had the A???? Doesn't she owe me?

oh my I see me in you here^^.

Sigh...everyone has work of their own, including healing. So there's no "Sitting back" for you.

There is heavy lifting for you, no matter what she does. As for her "owing" you.

Well, yeah, she does owe you, and I get that. But it's you being a strong man on your own, a forgiving but wiser man, whom she will want to "repay",

not an angry weak man who says he wants to work on the m but really will come off as punishing.

NOT b/c you want to punish her consciously, (or maybe at all), but b/c she's got something going on deep within her that she has to work out. And it'll be much later if she heals that and resolves those issues

that she'll be able to see your capacity for loyalty and love, in a safer light. That is when she'd see that she owes you.

I suspect right now she's got some serious shame to run & hide from...more than we can probably relate to.

Guilt is when we feel remorse for what we did, even when no one else knows.

Shame is worrying about others finding out, and rejecting us. You can have both at once, but shame makes them hide and lie...and run.

Since you want to at least be open to restoring your m, and b/c piecing is hard enough as it is, lose the "she owes me" belief for now...even though, believe me, I understand your point.


How do I proceed?

Keep at it, that's how. Do your own heavy lifting and at a certain level it'll model what "real work" looks like.

And I'd get your kids in to see someone too. Both of them know if the younger one does.

[FindAir]

Thornton, I am going to to have a good time with her.... Still putting on a good front. Thanks for the advise.

[FindAir]

Hi 25,
I'm still not there with my DB coach, hopefully soon... As far as the NC letter, I found one and used a variation of it. My W took it to her psychiatrist (her second visit) and he said that they she should be trying to undo why she has secrets and lies and it is not truly coming from her, so she shouldn't send it unless it from her words. Needless to say, it's not sent. He also advised that I should come in for a session. W claims that her heavy lifting is working on her own problems first, thats frustrates me. She has to undo herself to get back on track is her claim.

I'm finding it hard to detach because we live/work together, but I am GALing as much as possible. I bought and read the DR book and found it helpful.

TY

[25yearsmlc]

Hi 25,
I'm still not there with my DB coach, hopefully soon... As far as the NC letter, I found one and used a variation of it. My W took it to her psychiatrist (her second visit) and he said that they she should be trying to undo why she has secrets and lies and it is not truly coming from her, so she shouldn't send it unless it from her words.

(Okay I will get to the NC letter later.)

I think anyone who has a long term affair but simultaneously seems to want to remain married -- HAS deep seated ISSUES...and frankly,

if I were in your shoes, (and what I wish I had known 10 years ago) I would want to know that my spouse was digging deep to do some hard, scary brave work to figure out why they'd risk hurting me, us AND ruining our family... it's not just about the marriage, in fact if she does not work on this crap, you'll be here again down the road with some other stuff. AND if you don't do your work, b/c you seem to think her coming back is "the solution" but it's not.

Piecing is often harder than reconciling. Seriously. I know what I'm saying.

so

Needless to say, it's not sent. He also advised that I should come in for a session. W claims that her heavy lifting is working on her own problems first, thats frustrates me. She has to undo herself to get back on track is her claim.

I agree that without her doing her own work, reconciliation won't last. I honestly think tis' more in your interests to make sure she addresses her baggage and shame, which you might be overlooking the dangers of.

But that is not to say the A is negotiable. The NC letter's contents probably are, but not ending the A.

I'm finding it hard to detach because we live/work together, but I am GALing as much as possible. I bought and read the DR book and found it helpful.

TY

GAL is the only way i know to help you detach. How are your kids?

[FindAir]

25,

Based of the few R talks since the bomb.... she has conceded that she does have deep rooted issues that she wants resolved. Issues from having a very difficult upbringing with a lunatic mother and a unavailable father. A huge problem was that she was raped by an 18yo neighbor when she was 14. When she told her mother her mother turned her back on her and blamed her for flirting with the neighbor and shamed her and the farther barley stood up for her. My W just disclosed that to me recently, I never knew.

She's been seeing a psychiatrist (2 sessions) and apparently she's told him everything. The psychiatrist suggested that I join in on the next session. She claims as a result of that incident described above, that she always needs to do bad things and keep/have secrets mostly because she wasn't protected by her parents. She doesn't drink, smoke or do drugs. She also said that anyone (including me) who tried to protect her she would naturally push them away. So I know I have a steep climb.

I'm pretty sure both of my kids know... I had a couple of conversations with S14 and he claims that he overheard us discussing it when the news first broke. I tried to answer his questions as best as I could without lying to him. As far as my D16, I think she knows cause S14 does and they are close. I've asked D16 if she needed to talk, she said no she was fine and wanted to focus on school. The first month was tense around here, so one can assume this had an effect on them. Both W and I are being a lot calmer now out of courtesy for them.

The NC letter seems to be for me. I view the OM as a predator and an enemy to my family, W including. Although I exposed it to OMW, I still feel the need to watch both W and OM closely. W claims he was just the source of the "secret" and not much emotional attachment. I don't particularly buy it.

I read the book "Not Just Friends" recommended by my DB coach. I asked W the 10 questions that were laid out in the book and to answer them honestly. One of the questions was.. did she have any other inappropriate behavior within our M? Her answer was no. I only had a gut suspicion that it was only this one OM. He was older and fit the father that was always unavailable to her.

I can say I'm trying to GAL, I'm not perfect. I detached and go dark when we aren't around each other. as I said we work and live together and its heard to detach. Any recommendations would the very much appreciated.

Thanks for the input.

[25yearsmlc]

25,

Based of the few R talks since the bomb.... she has conceded that she does have deep rooted issues that she wants resolved. Issues from having a very difficult upbringing with a lunatic mother and a unavailable father. A huge problem was that she was raped by an 18yo neighbor when she was 14. When she told her mother her mother turned her back on her and blamed her for flirting with the neighbor and shamed her and the farther barley stood up for her. My W just disclosed that to me recently, I never knew.

These are ^^ problems. Guilt and shame can be corrosive.

Like your w in some ways, My h had a weird upbringing. His mom was kind but mentally ill often, (so h parented her at times) and a military father who was gone for long long chunks of time, and who had a temper and drinking problem when he was home (though he was smart and had some good qualities too, but not very stable).
H was the oldest of 2 and he bore way too much responsibility at an early age.

HOWEVER that's not a reason for his present choices, or for me to be plagued with nagging doubts about his credibility, forever. I had a challenging childhood too, and guess what? I got therapy and attended workshops and I got the tools I needed to dump the baggage on my own, not on someone else.

This^^ is why I can only go so far about labels of "MLC" or "Narcissistic Personality Disorder", etc. I did my work, pe

In the final analysis, it's about what type of father and h, my h was and what type of mother your wife is, and wife. Your needs count too, obviously. AND your kids...

IF they know of the A, it's only fair they know SOME of your w's issues. I mean it's her story to tell, but it's reasonable to tell the kids she has some "hard issues from childhood that may be a driving force she'll have to learn to deal with..."

And leave it at that. It's important that our children not think the wayward spouse/MLC whatever, is not a bad person. Even if you think they are...here's an illustrative anecdote.

A woman in a contentious divorce was driving her 6 y/o son home from school. She got a call from her soon to be xh, and they briefly argued. She sighed, but said nothing about her h, to their son.

But the boy looked up at his mom and asked "is my dad a bad person?"

In that moment she was embarrassed at her behavior. Her son knew he was made up of half his dad and half her...and she could not bare to tell her son that half of him came from a bad person, even though in her heart she really saw her h in that light. She knew it would be unhealthy for her son. Who knows how that belief might manifest later? I think there are often generational effects we cannot know when we remark in anger...

and in some states if you bad mouth your x to the kids, you can lose custody. It's called "parental alienation".

Anyhow, I'll write more later. If your w really does want to own her stuff and work on it and seems truly remorseful, you have a real shot if you want it.

You actually have what most LBSers want when they arrive here.

((( )))
She's been seeing a psychiatrist (2 sessions) and apparently she's told him everything. The psychiatrist suggested that I join in on the next session. She claims as a result of that incident described above, that she always needs to do bad things and keep/have secrets mostly because she wasn't protected by her parents. She doesn't drink, smoke or do drugs. She also said that anyone (including me) who tried to protect her she would naturally push them away. So I know I have a steep climb.

I'm pretty sure both of my kids know... I had a couple of conversations with S14 and he claims that he overheard us discussing it when the news first broke. I tried to answer his questions as best as I could without lying to him. As far as my D16, I think she knows cause S14 does and they are close. I've asked D16 if she needed to talk, she said no she was fine and wanted to focus on school. The first month was tense around here, so one can assume this had an effect on them. Both W and I are being a lot calmer now out of courtesy for them.

The NC letter seems to be for me. I view the OM as a predator and an enemy to my family, W including. Although I exposed it to OMW, I still feel the need to watch both W and OM closely. W claims he was just the source of the "secret" and not much emotional attachment. I don't particularly buy it.

I read the book "Not Just Friends" recommended by my DB coach. I asked W the 10 questions that were laid out in the book and to answer them honestly. One of the questions was.. did she have any other inappropriate behavior within our M? Her answer was no. I only had a gut suspicion that it was only this one OM. He was older and fit the father that was always unavailable to her.

I can say I'm trying to GAL, I'm not perfect. I detached and go dark when we aren't around each other. as I said we work and live together and its heard to detach. Any recommendations would the very much appreciated.

Thanks for the input.

[25yearsmlc]

Even though you feel right and she has betrayed you, you still have to GAL and it's partly to Detach

but it's also to remind her and yourself that you are an interesting fun attractive man that you are a good catch, (which you are) and a HAPPY man, at peace with himself as you work on healing and detaching...

and a great loving father. You have to be the kids rock, now more than ever.


For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. And I had 3 kids including a baby (so you know I don't want to hear about how you're 'too busy' to GAL).

Painful Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).
I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.

I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.

Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.

Went skydiving. Loved it so much I did it again. And plan on doing it again, soon!

Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs.

(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly cold of their long LONG winters).

In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.

Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.

(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot. Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.

******these helped me feel better every time i did one of them.

[FindAir]

Approaching the 2 mo. mark since D Day... Just wanted to post my current thoughts/feelings, maybe to vent or just maybe to give it up to the good people on this forum.

My emotions... although more under control than the previous month... I'm still dealing with the yin yang and the ebb and flow. I've become a male version of Syble with dueling emotional personalities.

One second I want to be a loving H and carry my W to the promise land. Helping her through her troublesome sickness and bring everything/M to normalcy. "From richer to poorer, in sickness and in health, till death do us part". The very next second I want to run far away.

I sit with patience and see how the game is played out, waiting. I'm obsessing constantly.

I know at some point I have to make a decision... What it will be, IDK. I do know that whatever decision I do make, it will be for my sanity, happiness and security... I'm not going to waiver on that. BUT when I ask, does this decision come, how long can/do I wait?

[MoveFrwd]

I sit with patience and see how the game is played out, waiting. I'm obsessing constantly.

Maybe theres something more active you can do besides just waiting? This will help with your obsession.

How can you build a life you will be content with regardless of what comes of the situation with W?