My Story

[25yearsmlc]

Survive,

Well, I've been around these boards a long long time. There are overlapping themes in your situation.

But there are also a few unique things and I'm going to have to ponder the issue of an OW in the house, with whom you had a relationship and know very well, AND who is also transitioning.

THAT^^ is new for me.

Coincidentally, my youngest child is "non binary" and I put that in quotes for others who may not be familiar with the term. They say they are neither male nor female, or both, and prefer the term "they/their".

Here, I will use "E" b/c that's the initial and it may lower any confusion for readers.

**Oh, around here, the letter "D" usually means "Divorce", "H" means husband. And "L" means lawyer.

So sometimes I was a little confused and had to read your first post again.**

IF it's not too much trouble, maybe you can adjust some abbreviations? Just to help others help you.


Okay so, here are my initial questions. How old are the kids? And are they both your h's?

You say the OW/L is the bio mother of one. Are there any legal documents listing you as a parent?

As for dating...

my thoughts are that we have to be fair to OPs b/c frankly, we have little to offer them emotionally.

If you are totally open with them, saying you really want your marriage to work,

I don't know how that would affect the dates, but if they are okay with it and you know you have been honest, then just make sure it doesn't stop your own work.

A lot of Walk Away spouses (or MLCers) date right away , seeking solace and comfort for whatever bothers them.

And let's face it, it's good for the ego. It also keeps them with an outward focus and "proving" that they are great partners, by looking at the new one.

Not by owning their own crap. I don't sense that you are interested in that behavior.

Lastly, the OW has multiple sclerosis and wants to transition? I'm not a doctor, but that sure seems like a lot of change for a body to handle. Yikes.

Hang in there, and DO see a L. You don't have to retain one. You need "Do" nothing.

B/c knowing your rights is empowering. You may well feel less trapped, and that matters.

If you choose to stay and stand, it'll be from a position of power and choice, not fear.

Make sense?

[Altair]

Survive,
I'll add to 25's thoughts with a bit of my own confusion. From my read, sometimes you are using "they" for D (yes, here it is better to use H) and L as a unit-- or 'they' as in one person who doesn't want a binary pronoun assignment. Is L sometimes "they" or one of your kids "they", or are they both 'they'?

Polyness aside, sounds like 2 people wanting to be together and giving you the boot, with kids involved, which yes, comprises this board for most of us. Hang in there.

A.

[Surv1ve]

Thanks for pointing out where I could be clearer. I'll refer to my legal husband as H and maybe my former partner as my ex/om. Yes, I did refer to my ex/om as they several times as it is the pronoun they actually use, and I know that's super confusing if you're not used to it. I'll try to just use ex/om so it's clear when I'm referring to a singular person versus a group.

25yearMLC: First, thanks for being an accepting parent towards E. My former work was working with youth specifically, and I saw a lot of homeless youth who had very different experiences than your E; an accepting parent is the number one protective factor in long-term wellness for youth whose assigned genders don't match their felt genders. Parents like you made my heart swell a whole bunch.

As to the MS and transitioning, it actually is a really great choice. Testosterone is a protective factor against the degeneration of MS; in fact, in some significant cases of progressive MS, they are offering testosterone as a treatment option for women with MS even though it will have a lot of unwanted impacts. The ex/om is transitioning because they want to, but the potential to slow down their MS (diagnosed in 2012) is an added benefit.

Where I live, the definition of parent is very generous and very clear. ANYONE who has behaved towards a child with the intentions of parenting is considered a parent and has the legal responsibilities (child support) and rights (access) to that child. My name is listed on all the school documents, the doctor's offices, etc. We're quite known in the extended community - our family raises a few eyebrows, and I often meet people in the community who say, "OH, I HEARD ABOUT YOUR FAMILY. The poly triad raising kids!" Many of my friends have sent me this article which you might find interesting: http://nymag.com/thecut/2017/03/ex-polyamorous-trio-granted-tri-custody-by-new-york-judge.html I have seen a L once, and they confirmed I had nothing to worry about re: my non-bio kid. H is the bio father of both, yes. Bio kid is daughter, age 10 and non bio kid is son, age 7.

The L also laid out for me the differences in what I can expect as a married spouse verus what ex/om can expect as a common law spouse. Our region recognizes that you can have a legal spouse and a common law spouse simultaneously, but it usually happens when someone has left a married partner and not gotten legally divorced yet. Legally, I'm in a much better position than ex/om in terms of asset division; I hear from both of them an expectation that I forego a lot of what I'm legally entitled to in the interest of "fairness", but other than the value of the house, we've never discussed any of this. The way I see this is: this is not the decision I want, and I don't intend to be financially insecure by choice in some weird version of "fairness" to play nice. I also know that these conversations will be VERY TENSE. In one Monster moment shortly after BD #1, H actually implied that if I expected spousal support he would deny me access to my non-bio son. I told him that 1) the law was on my side and 2) since when did the law define our family. "It's not fair," he said, "that I would have to pay you so much money." "My living standard will fall far more than yours," I said, "So, you're right; Patriarchy isn't fair."

As to dating, I would only date other poly people and would never, not ever, deceive someone into thinking I was single or more emotionally available than I am. In some moments, it seems like physical affection, touch, and OTHER FUN might be a nice distraction but I also worry that it might be too distracting and take me away from my own journey. If I have to go through this hell, by god, I will come out emotionally richer on the other side. FOR ME.

So, H tells me how important my friendship is to him if he moves out. What do I say to that? Part of me wants to say, "I can't imagine I would want to be friends with you if you moved out," which is my truth. What do I say that he won't experience as pressure but also doesn't let him off the hook?

So, today's story of wtf. Daughter participates in a fundraiser for a charity that's very important to her and she looks forward to this bowl-a-thon ALL YEAR LONG. H said he would go with me last week bc it's so important to daughter. This morning, he was all stompy and passive aggressive and mopey while verbally saying he was going to go. I hemmed and hawed over what, if anything, to do before I decided to address it. "What are your reasons for going to the bowlathon today?" I asked. "I'm expected to." "Well, you're not. Your body language says you don't want to go, so make a decision to either go and show up for your daughter or decide not to go and go engage her in a conversation with her about it. I want your support today, but this (his passive aggressive behaviour) isn't worth it. I'm opting out of your destructive patterns and don't want to be around you" So, he talked to her about it and promised her that he would put her to bed tonight with story time. And, I got to not be the jailer and not manage their relationship. Then, of course, because it's his "date night" with ex/om, be cut her stories short (shakes head). UGH.

But, this is a community event that many of our extended friends attend and I had a great time chatting with all sorts of people and I brought a friend home to hang out with me for the evening.

Tomorrow is derby and then going rock climbing with H and daughter. Rock climbing is pretty consistently a great time even when H and I go on our own. He's really proud of how hard I've worked to overcome my fear of falling and he actually gets really into me climbing and cheers me on pretty enthusiastically. In those moments, I get to see a peek of the person I married. He also gets to do a lot of climbing he can't do without a partner, so I try to keep the activity on the table and I steer away from anything stressful.

Thanks again for reading.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks for pointing out where I could be clearer. I'll refer to my legal husband as H and maybe my former partner as my ex/om. Yes, I did refer to my ex/om as they several times as it is the pronoun they actually use, and I know that's super confusing if you're not used to it. I'll try to just use ex/om so it's clear when I'm referring to a singular person versus a group.

25yearMLC: First, thanks for being an accepting parent towards E. My former work was working with youth specifically, and I saw a lot of homeless youth who had very different experiences than your E; an accepting parent is the number one protective factor in long-term wellness for youth whose assigned genders don't match their felt genders. Parents like you made my heart swell a whole bunch.

Thank you for this^^. It's not something I'm consistently supported in. I get a lot of rolled eyes even from people who love me.

Though I suspected E was what I would have termed Bisexual, they did date boys. I won't blame h for whatever "causes" this, but H did make it clear that after our son was done with high school, he was leaving. So 2 remaining daughters at home, including a daughter entering her junior year of high school and an 8 y/o, was simply not important enough to stick around. E was 8.

I know both of my d's wondered what would have happened if they had been male. Would dad have stuck around THEN...but we all know, there's no great answer and it is what it is. I only know both daughters were deeply wounded and to this day, do not feel close to him. He created the very alienation that later bothered, then angered HIM...
ANYHOW, I digress. Sorry.




As to the MS and transitioning, it actually is a really great choice. Testosterone is a protective factor against the degeneration of MS; in fact, in some significant cases of progressive MS, they are offering testosterone as a treatment option for women with MS even though it will have a lot of unwanted impacts. The ex/om is transitioning because they want to, but the potential to slow down their MS (diagnosed in 2012) is an added benefit.

Well dang, I've learned some medical stuff today!


Where I live, the definition of parent is very generous and very clear. ANYONE who has behaved towards a child with the intentions of parenting is considered a parent and has the legal responsibilities (child support) and rights (access) to that child.

My name is listed on all the school documents, the doctor's offices, etc. We're quite known in the extended community - our family raises a few eyebrows, and I often meet people in the community who say, "OH, I HEARD ABOUT YOUR FAMILY. The poly triad raising kids!" Many of my friends have sent me this article which you might find interesting: http://nymag.com/thecut/2017/03/ex-polyamorous-trio-granted-tri-custody-by-new-york-judge.html I have seen a L once, and they confirmed I had nothing to worry about re: my non-bio kid. H is the bio father of both, yes. Bio kid is daughter, age 10 and non bio kid is son, age 7.

I will read the New York link (I am a L, but a nice person :D) and if you have not adopted the other child, I'm relieved but a little paranoid. You're on the documents like any guardian would be, but that's not quite adoption...Not to freak you out, but this is a great time to dot those i's and cross the T's...

The L also laid out for me the differences in what I can expect as a married spouse verus what ex/om can expect as a common law spouse. Our region recognizes that you can have a legal spouse and a common law spouse simultaneously, but it usually happens when someone has left a married partner and not gotten legally divorced yet.

Polygamy is not recognized in any state in America. Being the married spouse is definitely better for you financially. Glad you went to see the L

Legally, I'm in a much better position than ex/om in terms of asset division; I hear from both of them an expectation that I forego a lot of what I'm legally entitled to in the interest of "fairness", but other than the value of the house, we've never discussed any of this. The way I see this is: this is not the decision I want, and I don't intend to be financially insecure by choice in some weird version of "fairness" to play nice.

Playing nice (giving up legal rights??) means risking your future security - and will likely yield you nothing from them. I seriously doubt they'd even utter the word "thanks" b/c in your h's mind, HE deserves it, not you.

Being calm, upbeat and having a PMA is the best approach for saving the m, but it has nothing to do with what the law awards you. I told my h that whatever the lawyers worked out was....how it goes...it's not "MY law" or 25's new groundbreaking law, just the formula they apply to our situation. Try hard to keep conversations between the Ls and not between you. I don't know anyone from a long m, who could work something out on paper and benefit the chance of a recon.

I also know that these conversations will be VERY TENSE. In one Monster moment shortly after BD #1, H actually implied that if I expected spousal support he would deny me access to my non-bio son. I told him that 1) the law was on my side and 2) since when did the law define our family. "It's not fair," he said, "that I would have to pay you so much money." "My living standard will fall far more than yours," I said, "So, you're right; Patriarchy isn't fair."

touche...

As to dating, I would only date other poly people and would never, not ever, deceive someone into thinking I was single or more emotionally available than I am. In some moments, it seems like physical affection, touch, and OTHER FUN might be a nice distraction but I also worry that it might be too distracting and take me away from my own journey. If I have to go through this hell, by god, I will come out emotionally richer on the other side. FOR ME.

YES, may as well get our money's worth!.

Pain is the touchstone for great spiritual growth, or bitterness. In the end, it really is our choice.

So, H tells me how important my friendship is to him if he moves out. What do I say to that? Part of me wants to say, "I can't imagine I would want to be friends with you if you moved out," which is my truth. What do I say that he won't experience as pressure but also doesn't let him off the hook?


To an extent all WAS's get off the hook for now. You're trying to save the m and so far, he's not.

Remember this hard lesson I learned form Vernetta, my DB coach. (A Godsend if I ever met one)

See, it's not your job to teach him lessons (keep him on the hook). Life will keep him on the hook. Not your job to show him the consequences of his behavior. Life shows them consequences.

I know I wanted to enforce rules and punish H under the guise of holing him acountable but it was more or less me appointing myself in charge of doling out penalties.

But that just fueled his negative images of me AND the worse he felt around us, the more he fled. Your h won't slap his forehead and suddenly get it, because you remind him of a failure...he'll take the shame and convert it to blame - on You.

I'm not saying to cover for him, but know that him feeling guilt tends to make them lash out, not run home.

What to say about being friends...

You say "well, Maybe..." in a disbelieving way,

OR "well Maybe, but not for a long time from now". It's not you being punitive, it's you detaching and sure, it may also give him something to miss.

Which is also why the interactions you do have with him, must be designed to do that. Give him something to miss. H won't miss you asking him WHY??!! or "HOW CAN YOU DO THIS??""""


Believe me, I asked my h 3492441 times...and never got a "good" answer. It tends to elicit a defensive reaction. Lose the anger in front of him. BE lower maintenance and handle your depression and other issues, on your own. Check into EE too.

So, today's story of wtf. Daughter participates in a fundraiser for a charity that's very important to her and she looks forward to this bowl-a-thon ALL YEAR LONG. H said he would go with me last week bc it's so important to daughter. This morning, he was all stompy and passive aggressive and mopey while verbally saying he was going to go. I hemmed and hawed over what, if anything, to do before I decided to address it. "What are your reasons for going to the bowlathon today?" I asked. "I'm expected to." "Well, you're not. Your body language says you don't want to go, so make a decision to either go and show up for your daughter or decide not to go and go engage her in a conversation with her about it. I want your support today, but this (his passive aggressive behaviour) isn't worth it. I'm opting out of your destructive patterns and don't want to be around you" So, he talked to her about it and promised her that he would put her to bed tonight with story time. And, I got to not be the jailer and not manage their relationship. Then, of course, because it's his "date night" with ex/om, be cut her stories short (shakes head). UGH.

But, this is a community event that many of our extended friends attend and I had a great time chatting with all sorts of people and I brought a friend home to hang out with me for the evening.

Tomorrow is derby and then going rock climbing with H and daughter. Rock climbing is pretty consistently a great time even when H and I go on our own. He's really proud of how hard I've worked to overcome my fear of falling and he actually gets really into me climbing and cheers me on pretty enthusiastically. In those moments, I get to see a peek of the person I married. He also gets to do a lot of climbing he can't do without a partner, so I try to keep the activity on the table and I steer away from anything stressful.

Thanks again for reading.

[Coly23]

Wow, this is some great stuff from 25!

Thanks for explaining your situation Surv1ve and I apologies for asking so many questions. Hope you are having a good weekend?

[Surv1ve]

I know my H is being coached by a friend who left his wife of 17 years to go live with his gf in the US shortly after their 13yo child identified that they were actually a boy. I have pretty much never forgiven this guy, and I know that's who my H is reaching out to. UGH.

I'm actually in Canada. While Canada doesn't recognize polygamy, either, it doesn't unrecognize it. Actually, our region just recognized the possibility of having up to 4 parents on a birth certificate, which is new this year. It wouldn't hurt to see if we can do that with the children retroactively.

The stuff about the response to friendship was great. While I intellectually know that I need to back the heck off and not be the puppet master, all the ways in which that show up are super hard to comprehend. H for sure sees me as the judge or something. A disbelieving maybe, I can pull that off!

Coly: It has been a good weekend so far. I went out with a friend on Friday night for dinner, had the bowl a thon yesterday, and have some planned activities for today. I've been keeping super busy. How about you?

[Surv1ve]

I wanted to send this privately to 25, but it seems there are no private message? Or, I can't because I'm new. Anyway,

25 - I want to give YOU a pep talk re your parenting. It isn't a choice for E. Gender is complicated, and lots of other cultures before colonialism have words for way more than two genders. Those trans kids taught me so much, and they blamed a lot of their experience on colonialism. Every once in a while, it is a phase. And, I mean 1 time in 10,000. Lots of kids know when they are 5 or 6 when their felt genders do not match, but it takes a long time to articulate if it's never been provided as an option that maybe they are not a boy or a girl. But, EVEN IN THE RARE CASE that it's a phase, you are protecting your relationship with E right now and communicating that you will accept E no matter what. That is so important. Also, poor E must be struggling so much with internalizing the blame for your H's atrocious behavior. Oh, I am hostile on your/E's behalf and so sorry!

As a note, I wonder if you've considered supporting E with access to hormone blockers to prevent the onset of the biological markers of their sex hormones? This option is so rarely even know about so I wanted to mention it. Hormone blockers basically delay puberty and, if they were ever discontinued, puberty would just start again. This can prevent a lot of the visible markers that mark people; e.g., a person assigned male at birth won't develop the wide jaw, large hands, and broader shoulders that will mark them as male if they identify as a woman. Or someone assigned female won't develop chest tissue/hip shape that marks them as a woman. Opting out of environmental microaggressions can make the rest of their lives easier. For people who will later go on estrogen or testosterone, having access to hormone blockers through adolescence will make the rest of their lives a whole lot easier. (This kind of stuff was the basis of my former role, but whenever I went to something like the bowl-a-thon I went to yesterday, which is a queer community event, I would be descended upon by everyone wanting me to work. Same as doctors and lawyers, I'm sure!)

[job]

We can't send things via private messaging on any of the forums here. We aren't allowed to share any of our personal data here such as, email addresses and/or phone numbers, per the policies of the Forum, as well as, sharing links to other sites, etc.

Here's a paragraph from the policies of the Forum:

"This is a public forum. Exchanging private contact information with other users is not allowed. Our purpose in making this On Line Community available to you is to offer you a place to publicly give and receive Divorce Busting help, and to support one another in saving your marriages and keeping your families together. It was never our intention to provide a means of privately connecting with others via the internet. There are many other sites where that is encouraged. This is not one of them. We are here to help and support you via this public forum."

Sorry!

[Surv1ve]

No worries! It just feels off topic, but felt like a place where I could share some of the things I know a low about =)

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=Surv1ve]I know my H is being coached by a friend who left his wife of 17 years to go live with his gf in the US shortly after their 13yo child identified that they were actually a boy. I have pretty much never forgiven this guy, and I know that's who my H is reaching out to. UGH.

I relate to wanting to slap that father, but I also remind you to not go there. You are in no position to forgive/not. Besides, what struck me in that fact pattern (& I'm sure it wasn't in a vacuum, b/c after all, he had a gf!),

is that the h fled his son's transition b/c he feared he somehow failed and wanted to avoid blame at all costs. Interesting that he'd prefer being known as a father who abandoned his child, than the father of a trans kid. Lovely...

IRONICALLY, your h claims to prefer a transitioning male...but he's also not gay, ro doesn't want to be seen as if he is...yeah, um, okay.

Talk about wanting someone he fantasizes will be lower maintenance. The only thing lower maintenance is that your h won't have to go out and date to find his "true" love. Sheesh...SMH (shaking my head).


I'm actually in Canada. While Canada doesn't recognize polygamy, either, it doesn't unrecognize it. Actually, our region just recognized the possibility of having up to 4 parents on a birth certificate, which is new this year. It wouldn't hurt to see if we can do that with the children retroactively.

Well, in the US, you can add them retroactively.

But Do what you do FOR YOU, not anyone else. I assume you'd have to get OW/OM permission (I can't find your post with the label for them, as I post this, so forgive me if I've used the wrong term).

But you could authentically say that putting your name on it obligates you legally to each child. Which is true. No need to allow them on your bio childs certificate IF you fear sharing custody too much.

IF that is not a fear, then go ahead - b/c it obligates all named parties on the certificates, to support those children. And it entitles them to visitation or shared custody, as well. (Absent being unfit).

What do you need/want most, CS or primary custody? What are the risks involved in either approach?


The stuff about the response to friendship was great. While I intellectually know that I need to back the heck off and not be the puppet master, all the ways in which that show up are super hard to comprehend. H for sure sees me as the judge or something. A disbelieving maybe, I can pull that off!

In the WAS mind, terms like "negative spouse = Judge = disapproving parent = harshest critic -their shame.

THOSE^^ are views the WAS often has of the LBSer, along with "too needy = demanding = never content with the WAS"....

In fairness, We LBSers do tend to use parental tones with spouses we feel are in MLC, and that is to be avoided. MY DB coach hammered this into me a lot.

She said to "Lose the anger in front of h (totally ineffective and fuels their negatives) AND Lose the parental tone."

First, the parental voice is not the voice of a lover.

Second, as hard as it is to believe or accept, it's Not a spouses job to teach lessons of life, or show them the consequences of their choices. LIFE DOES THE TEACHING...which I repeat for emphasis.

I had to write it down and read those "notes to self", often.