A WW? (7)

[Zues126]

still haven't solved the lack of respect issue. You have way more patients for that than I do.

No one should tolerate blatant disrespect.

I reread everything I posted and don't see anything I suggested that contradicts this advice.

When I talk about validation, I'm assuming that WAS is just making a few nasty spew comments here and there. If she says "Why bother talking about it, nothing I say is going to matter anyway" in a nasty tone, there is no reason not to validate and say "I understand you've felt that I haven't heard your voice in our marriage. You must've felt very neglected. I can see why you'd be angry after all these years, and why you wouldn't want to bother talking to me about things anymore."

Then stop, just stop. No "But if you talk to me now it will be different" or anything. No. Because we want to communicate with ACTIONS, NOT WORDS. By validating and shutting up we are SHOWING her we can listen. But trying to validate and then trying to get her to have a conversation she didn't want to have we are showing her we aren't listening or respecting her preferences, which proves we didn't mean what we said. See? Validate and STFU.

So yes, if validating a few snotty comments means putting up with disrespect, then yes, you need to validate and STFU. I challenge anyone to disagree with that.

BUT- if behavior is truly disrespectful...name calling, swearing, screeching, flaunting another man in your face, saying nasty things to your child about you...THEN you need to put a stop to it. That's a boundary. That's where you simply say "I won't carry on a conversation with this type of disrespect. I'm willing to speak to you when you've calmed down." Then walk away. Or "It hurts our child when they are in the middle of this. We both need to speak respectfully about each other when we're around our child. Can you agree to that?" (If not, talk to your lawyer)


All in all, there are fine lines between being a pushover, being a strong man, and being a jacka$$. Don't be a pushover, but don't be a jacka$$. When things are outside of your boundaries, validate. Focus on your behavior to lead your family the best you can. When things cross your boundaries, defend yourself without retaliating or controlling. Just be strong. Let the water crash upon the rocks.

As I look back at my sitch I have navigated through a lot of crap. Attempted suicide while she had primary parental time, a string of other men, black out drinking, and a lot of things that could've escalated the situation with me and XW very easily. When I was in tremendous emotional turmoil and grieving the loss of my marriage I was forced with horrible circumstances that forced me to make bold decisions which impacted the lives and well being of my children. I am pretty darn proud that I was able to be strong where I needed to and laid back when strength wasn't needed. As a result, despite her meltdown and insane behavior I have 50% parental time, happy and healthy children, and a professional working relationship with the mother of my children which allows us to cooperate a bit for everyone's best interest- especially the children's. No, my marriage wasn't saved, that was clearly not going to be a possibility. But I have become the man she was a fool to leave and I conducted myself in a way that was best for my family and will never trouble me about what I could've done differently. My life has never been better than it is today.

[lt0402]

Short and simple, keep focused on you. Where you strayed from the path of a strong supportive husband. Where you can improve. How you can best lead your family forward.

For me I think that would look like improved validation skills, a detachment from what you think her issues are, and a decrease of expectations as to what you want from her right now. I think these things are imperative to the survival of your marriage. And VALIDATE, DETACH, NO EXPECTATIONS is hardly a new concept. I'm just talking about how this looks in his situation based on what I've read so far.

Zues, very good thoughts around this. I'll be the first to admit, that while i've tried to consistently validate, I've not always been that great at it. Alot of times w/ the anger that comes from my W, i find myself quickly needing to choose bt validating and standing for my boundary. I'm not sure i always make the right choice and it leads to alot of second guessing. This all is an iterative process it seems, and I'm hoping to learn from each interaction and adapt to what i may or may not have done wrong. Appreciate the kind words and helpful thoughts brother!

Gordie, first off, awesome and useful advice. Here's a few thoughts:

1. Stop text messaging unless it is purely about logistics or about kids or to communicate need to know concrete details. That means no open ended questions like how is your day or how are you feeling. Try to go a whole day without any text messages and then another...

Generally I'd agree with this. For me, i've spent so much time not communicating with her, even via text, that I'd wanted to try a 180 there. You're right about the open ended questions though. They either get ignored or ignite some vitriol from her end. Perhaps I'll go back to the more "business" oriented texting approach. Need to give that some thought.

2. When you are listening, make eye contact and just listen without interruption or distraction. If there is a natural pause in the conversation, you can validate what you heard...or you can ask questions to show that not only are you listening, but that you are interested to know more about what she thinks and feels...someone here said remember TED and that has been helpful to me: (a) tell me more about... (b) explain to me what you mean by... and (c) describe what XXX is...

TED, awesome! Going to borrow that one. All of the above seems like great advice.

3. Instead of giving answers, even when asked for answers, do a 180 and change from the guy with ALL the answers to the guy with NO answers...this takes humility...learn how to say...I don't know...I'm not sure...I need more time to think about that...can I get back to you on that tomorrow...that is way outside of my expertise...

You're right, i'm not used to being the guy w/o the answers. Historically I've been very quick to look for/provide solutions. Will be on guard for this. One thing I'm not sure of though is the house stuff with regards to this whole sell the house, rent another one thing. Immediately that seems like a bad idea to me. Perhaps the best approach is to validate the idea, take it away to think about it, and then come back with my thoughts. Unsure how to do that w/o it sounding like i'm attacking her.

Above all, be genuine, if you come across as fake it will backfire...

Yep. I'm a pretty informal guy, so trying to craft alot of this stuff into an informal tone is tough for me. Work in progress. Thanks Gordie!

still haven't solved the lack of respect issue. You have way more patients for that than I do.

unsure if that patience is a good or bad thing at this point MV. I agree that the respect thing is still a large issue in all this, but man it gets tiring being on guard and watching for her stepping over my boundary all the time. I've stood my ground with her at times, but haven't been as firm as we've all discussed. being as that's one of the only things i haven't tried w/ regards to the disrespect, perhaps that's the next step here. Open to your thoughts my friend as always. Appreciate your steady and honest presence here brother.

No one should tolerate blatant disrespect.

Agree w/ you Zues. One of the consistent issues in my situation has been a large amount of disrespect from my W. It's ebbed and flowed throughout this, but it was rough in the beginning. Some of what is being perceived as bad behavior on my end may be me overreacting to the perceived disrespect from my W. There was a stretch during this where I was being attacked multiple times per day by W and I had to stand my ground very firmly. I almost wonder if that's ingrained/trained this behavior in me and now i see an affront from her, even when there is none. Unsure, but man is it hard to have an unbiased view when you're living in the middle of this thing.

When I talk about validation, I'm assuming that WAS is just making a few nasty spew comments here and there. If she says "Why bother talking about it, nothing I say is going to matter anyway" in a nasty tone, there is no reason not to validate and say "I understand you've felt that I haven't heard your voice in our marriage. You must've felt very neglected. I can see why you'd be angry after all these years, and why you wouldn't want to bother talking to me about things anymore."

For me, I've gotten to a point where i can mostly control the initial emotional response to my Ws comments. I'm able to keep that balance during our conversations as well. It's taken awhile, but it's one skill that I've been able to get down. I do have a difficult time pushing through the validation piece though. Each time I attempt to do it, my W responds w/ "Would you stop with the therapy talk". This is one skill i've yet to be able to hone.

Then stop, just stop. No "But if you talk to me now it will be different" or anything. No. Because we want to communicate with ACTIONS, NOT WORDS. By validating and shutting up we are SHOWING her we can listen. But trying to validate and then trying to get her to have a conversation she didn't want to have we are showing her we aren't listening or respecting her preferences, which proves we didn't mean what we said. See? Validate and STFU.

Read, understood, and stored away. This is excellent reading and good advice.

BUT- if behavior is truly disrespectful...name calling, swearing, screeching, flaunting another man in your face, saying nasty things to your child about you...THEN you need to put a stop to it. That's a boundary. That's where you simply say "I won't carry on a conversation with this type of disrespect. I'm willing to speak to you when you've calmed down." Then walk away. Or "It hurts our child when they are in the middle of this. We both need to speak respectfully about each other when we're around our child. Can you agree to that?" (If not, talk to your lawyer)

Lived this for a few months. Not a fun place to be in. Led to a massive blowup b/t us in August. Many a times did i exit a conversation. This type of behavior had an interesting effect on her and seemed to bring her back into balance somewhat. When i mentioned being trained above to control my emotion, etc, this was the battleground where it happened. Bleh, thinking about all that makes me a bit sick. Not a fun time.

All in all, there are fine lines between being a pushover, being a strong man, and being a jacka$$. Don't be a pushover, but don't be a jacka$$. When things are outside of your boundaries, validate. Focus on your behavior to lead your family the best you can. When things cross your boundaries, defend yourself without retaliating or controlling. Just be strong. Let the water crash upon the rocks.

Agree on all of the above. I have a hard time finding that balance. To be honest, having lived in this messed up dynamic for so long, i have a hard time knowing what IS balanced at this point. I think that's a reason why i have a difficult time discerning when to stand firmly and when to validate. A work in progress. I love the thought of letting the water crash upon the rocks. Very relevant to all of this.

As I look back at my sitch I have navigated through a lot of crap. Attempted suicide while she had primary parental time, a string of other men, black out drinking, and a lot of things that could've escalated the situation with me and XW very easily. When I was in tremendous emotional turmoil and grieving the loss of my marriage I was forced with horrible circumstances that forced me to make bold decisions which impacted the lives and well being of my children. I am pretty darn proud that I was able to be strong where I needed to and laid back when strength wasn't needed. As a result, despite her meltdown and insane behavior I have 50% parental time, happy and healthy children, and a professional working relationship with the mother of my children which allows us to cooperate a bit for everyone's best interest- especially the children's. No, my marriage wasn't saved, that was clearly not going to be a possibility. But I have become the man she was a fool to leave and I conducted myself in a way that was best for my family and will never trouble me about what I could've done differently. My life has never been better than it is today.

Wow. Just wow. I'm very sorry you've had to navigate your way through such a horrible situation my friend. You are correct that it takes a strong man to maintain his composure and successfully make it to the other side. You should be very proud of the stability you provided both your kids and, it sounds like, your XW during that. One of the things I've realized as I've ground through this (with everyone's immense help and support) is that things will be fine, regardless of the outcome. It makes me very happy to see that yourself, as well as others, have gotten through this and are thriving! Zues, appreciate your thoughts and support brother!

[mvgfwd2]

maybe carry an air horn. whenever she starts ripping into you and being disrespectful just give it a blast. keep blasting until she gives up being a b*tch. If neither of you can hear what is coming out of her mouth then it kind of never happened. You ask her to stop behaving badly, and you see it hasn't stopped. Now it's time for action to stop it. After a few times I think she will pause before saying something to pick at you. It may not be an elegant solution but you aren't yelling at her or anything like that. You are just making the garbage disappear in the sound waves.

[hawker]

I like that air horn idea :-)

Just dropping by to say hi and tell you what an awesome dad you are!! :-)

[lt0402]

MV, I drive by Lowes on the way home every day and don't think I didn't seriously think of picking up that air horn today.

Hawk, appreciate the great thoughts! To be honest, I feel like I have been off a little in the dad department recently. Nothing big, but my focus hasn't been 100% there the past week or so. My ability to self diagnose this stuff now is so much better. This evening I've started to make sure my D gets me 100% every day. Love that kid!

Bed, gym, then IC after that. Curious to get his thoughts on the conversation with my W. thanks all!

[Gordie]

LT,

I'm still a beginner in this but the changes I have made have been a big improvement. Re not having the answers, resist immediately disagreeing or feeling like you need to tell your W how faulty her thinking is. I know this is hard but you can do this! My DB coach told me that when you disagree with your W it makes her hold on to that position longer and more adamnently just to prove you wrong!

W: I think we should sell the house ASAP
LT: Hmmm...I need some time to think about that

W: Let's cash out our retirement plans and buy lottery tickets
LT: I hadn't thought of that; tell me more about what you're thinking

W: Let's buy a Disney time share
LT: That's an interesting idea; I don't know anything about them

And when you return to these topics at a later point, you can show that you listened to her and considered her opinion, try to find some areas where you can agree...

[lt0402]

Gordie, it's so tough to do this when some of the answers seem so obvious. That said, I started doing it last night w/ some responses to my W around getting the house ready to sell. I have noticed that my W will dig in when i disagree, and she'll also take the opposite position should i offer an opinion. It's been frustrating in the past, but you may be right, maybe this is a spot for me to 180 from something that's not working.

The return to the topic should be a good opportunity to validate as well. Brushing up on those skills as it's obvious i still need more work there. Thanks so much for the thoughts Gordie! I'll share some trial-error w/ you as well as i grind through this.

Will journal a bit later.

[lt0402]

Quick journaling. We have been doing projects around the house the past couple weeks to get it ready to sell. W tried painting our cabinets in the bathroom 3yrs ago but never finished them. They were not salvageable so I've been ripping them out and hanging new drywall the past couple weekends. W typically does the finesse work so her job is to mud, sand, and paint the walls. It's been two weeks and she hasn't gotten to it yet. D was home sick a couple days this week but still not sure why she hasn't gotten any of that done. Frustrating.

W is still hell bent on selling this place and renting. We have gotten away from the idea of renting a place, moving all our stuff in there, and selling this place empty. Meeting with the realtor fixed that. I still haven't given W feedback on the idea of renting yet though. Neighbors put their house up for sale today and when I told W she got annoyed that I hadn't gotten together my thoughts on renting yet. I told her I needed a couple more days to think about it. She got agitated and said she needs to know now where she will be living in a month. Really, though, at the earliest it'd be 3 months as we plan on listing mid march and it'll probably take 60 days at the earliest to close on any sale. Unsure why she feels so stressed by it.

I told W why don't we discuss it Sunday so I can think about it for a couple days. No answer. I ask her if she heard me and she huffs and says yes. I'm tired right now from a long week and my patience is wearing thin so I just exited the situation. To be honest though, this is crazy.

I've got Monday off for Presidents' Day. We meet with the realtor that morning to discuss details. Going to trench and put down the mulch this weekend. Need to call someone to fix our built in microwave, which has been broken for 2 years. We have another countertop one we have been using. W said she would handle scheduling to get it fixed 2 yrs ago (I contacted the company as it was under warranty, put in the claim, got the # for the contractor, etc) but she never did. Yesterday she brought up that the microwave needed to be fixed and that I had been the one who forgot and dropped the ball on getting it fixed two years ago. Frustrsting.

I kind of feel like I'm directionless right now. I'm wondering if I need to pull my focus back to myself somewhat. Maybe I've allowed it to slide too far towards my W and M again. W is wearing on me currently. I actually feel like an unpaid and unappreciated handyman at the moment. Similar to how W made me feel in 2013 when I was busting my a$$ doing yard and house stuff and all I caught from her was flack. That led to me loosening up on that rigor and drove more conflict in our M which probably spiraled to where we are now.

Venting a lot of frustration here, I know. I know the answer is to only do things bc I want to do them, not bc she expects me to. We have a month to go before we want to sell this house and I know it's going to take a focused grind to get done what is needed. I feel like I have no partner in this. She also apparently expects me to solve the issue of finding this rental.

I need to get some sleep, recharge, and approach this rationally tomorrow. There's no plan yet, so I'll need to put that together and dole out responsibilities knowing she refuses to work with me. Frustrating.

[mvgfwd2]

If you want to sell do what you think needs to be done. Take charge and get it done. Nothing wrong with that. Stay out of the blame game about who is supposed to do what. It's always easier to ask forgiveness than for permission.

If you don't want to rent then you probably don't need to spend any time on finding a rental. If you want to buy another place then focus on that instead. She can find the rental if that's what she wants. Then you can compare the pros and cons of each.

[lt0402]

Ok. Quick journaling. Thanks for the thoughts MV. Helped me frame things in my brain. Easy to get intertwined with W at times.

Saturday I had a meetup for a golf league I joined. Good guys. Looking forward to that starting in April. Hung out with D all morning. Trenched the beds in the yard to get ready for putting down mulch. Hung out with D that evening too. Spent a few hours finishing our taxes until late in the evening.

Sunday I spent the morning installing a closet shelving system W had gotten in Ds closet. When we first moved in we painted the inside of her closet as an underwater scene. She loved that. W painted over it this week to get it back to normal. Made me fairly sad to see it gone. Hung the shelving unit and put the door back up to finish it off. D had a friend over late in the day so I used that time to finish up the yard stuff.

Today, realtor over This morning to discuss selling house. After that I go get trim to put up in one of our rooms. D has a friend over and they go play outside. I sit down with W and ask if she'd like to discuss rent vs buy. W says there is no way she'd ever buy another house with me. She says after buying two houses and me not listening to her wants on either, plus the fact that I never lived up to the promises I made on doing house stuff, she won't buy another house. She says we should rent for a year. She says we have too much crap and clutter anyway that we don't use and we need to downsize. I tell her I would like to buy a house if we find one we like. She says she will not go house shopping with me because she will not have a conversation with me. She asks me why I'm acting like everything is all fine. I tell her that from talking to her last weekend I know everything is not fine. I'd like to rebuild a friendship with her. I'm not ok with any of us being unhappy. She says I don't have the right to be worried about her happiness. She says I keep saying things like I hear you and I understand but I never listen to her and never have. She's over it.

She says we need to rent a place and separate ourselves from each other within it. I tell her that I am no longer ok with us living separate lives. The situation as it is is not sustainable. She says she knows that. She says that when she told me in November that I'd won she did that for Ds happiness. She did that bc she was not going to put D through a long drawn out court battle over custody. She said that she came to the realization that she'd suffered through this for ten years, what's another ten. This is her life now.

I tell her I'm sorry that you had to live and feel like that. She tells me I have no right to tell her that. She told me for years that she was unhappy and I didn't do anything. She said since 2015 she's been telling me we have issues and I didn't listen or change. She tells me that D is also not happy with me. D doesn't treat me like a kid would treat their dad. It kills W to see it. No other kid says “we don't care” when I go to leave somewhere. Pretty soon, W says, D will be old enough to not put up with my sh:t and will just tell me to f$ck off. W also says that I follow D around the house and am constantly in her space. D is independent and what I'm doing will mess her up.

I again tell her that this situation is not sustainable. She says if I want to buy a house then I can but it will be without them. She says we can sell the house and rent two places. She then tells me to take today and tonight and let her know by end of day what I choose. I tell her that if we rent a place together I'm not ok with us leading separate existences. She tells me that when she told me this is as good as it gets she meant it. We will never be partners in anything and never were. I tell her that I don't need the time to decide, we are selling very quickly and short term it sounds like we will need to rent a place. However we still need to decide what is going on with us. W tells me that doesn't matter right now. The pressing issue is the house. Financially, she says, the decision makes sense. The house it too big, costs too much, and she never wanted it. Also with the economy the way it is we need to get out now.

I tell her that I can see this is stressful for you. Would it help to sit down and make a list together of things we need to do to get the house ready later? She says no, she will not sit down with me and do that. She says that she knows I won't do stuff anyway. I respond back with I feel like I have been working nonstop on the house since 3 weeks ago when we made the decision to sell. She says that's not what she said. I tell her that's just how I feel. She says she knows I've been working non stop, and so has she. She sits there for a minute and says “don't you already have a list?” I tell her it's only of things I believe we need to do. She says why don't we just use that. I tell her I will grab it and we can discuss. I go get it then we discuss the items on there and go through room by room what needs to be done. We discuss getting a storage unit. We discuss moving stuff to the garage in bins. She says she will not put furniture in a dirty storage unit. We end the conversation and I go to start working on cleaning out the garage. She asks if I can replace the two light fixtures outside first. (Front porch and back porch). I say sure and go to work. W helps me take down bathroom mirrors, as "I never took them down so that's why she hasn't sanded and painted the drywall I hung the past two weekends". I didn't point out that it was her putting it off that kept me from getting it done. Also, the mirrors are not in the way for any of the prep work that needs to be done. Then I rehang Ds closet door. Play with D for an hour before dinner. Grill my dinner. Hang trim on the kitchen island while they finish dinner. Then play with D for 45 minutes before bed.

Feel like I'm in W enforced limbo and W is trying to force me into making the decision to end this. She seems to be trying to make things so unfriendly and unhappy that my position becomes untenable. Not sure if that's the case but it sure seems that way.

I feel like a poorly treated handyman....

Somewhat frustrated by this. W sat around all day and did nothing with regards to getting the house ready to sell. if I don't do the work then it won't get done. But, I never do any work on the house, at least per W. such a strange place I'm at....