So Confused and Conflicted

[WshIKnw]

Hello, friends. What does it mean when my walk-away wife never initiates any contact with me? Prior to her going cold on me before she left, she was the primary initiator and craved my attention. We have been living apart since December 28th. She also ignores a whole lot of what I say to her over text, emails, letters that I gave her before she left, and Facebook messages. The last thing I said to her was "Sweet dreams, [slightly endearing petname]" in a text on Thursday night, right at her bedtime. I have heard no peep from her since. Since she left, I can hardly think of any contact that I've had with her that I didn't initiate. There have been times where she just showed up at the house and we hung out for a few hours, but other than that, I think I have initiated all contact. Some of our conversations have been very pleasant. My last encounter with her Tuesday, when she agreed to meet me at a park, with what used to be our dog, was an okay encounter, but tainted by her saying "well, this has been nice, I guess". And at one point, she was staring at mouth, and I said "Admiring my pearly whites?" and she said "You do have nice teeth. I can say that much.", which I took as her saying "but not much else", even though she used to compliment the hell out of me before she became bitter as she is now. It's not like I spam her with letters, emails, texts, etc. I did when she was still in the house, but this whole week, I saw her Tuesday, and sent her the "goodnight" message on Thursday night, and that's been it. Nothing on Monday, that I can recall.

Also, I have noticed that when I am around her, like on Tuesday, at the park, she stares at me like she is trying to figure something out, but as soon as I look at her, she looks away. Anyone know what that's about? I figured that she is studying my outward-appearing emotions, trying to figure out what I'm feeling. But I can only really guess at what she is doing. When I look at her and catch her eye for a moment doing that, the look that she is giving me isn't angry. It seems inquisitive, and if I may be so hopeful, perhaps even longing.

[Cadet]

Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.

[WshIKnw]

I'm going to try to provide a story of the breakdown of our marriage, without it being too long, because I could write 20 or 30 pages on it, probably. I apologize if this is too long. I can try to shorten it to a paragraph, if anyone wants me to.

I am 33. My wife turned 30 last March. We have no kids. We were married in Nov of 2009. Started dating in Feb of 2007. When she started shutting down on me, we had just finished our seventh year of marriage, on her 30th year of life, after she took a new job during the summer, that put her around a very different group of people. Early in our relationship, I noticed that I could not read her. I couldn't tell how happy she was. This came after she started distancing herself from me in late 2007; it completely blindsided me. I got her back around the beginning of 2008. She said there was another guy that she had some interest in, and they decided not to pursue it. She also gave me some reasons about why she was unhappy with me and an ultimatum of something I needed to fix. Because I did not at all see that almost-breakup coming, I vowed to forever get periodic feedback from her about how happy she is in the relationship, because I could never tell. That feedback would involve me asking her probably about once a month to tell me her overall happiness with the relationship. That helped me to know how hard I needed to work to keep her happy. You know, if someone's at a 4, you want to know that, so that you don't keep doing what you are doing, thinking all is fine. And if your partner's at a 10, you don't want to keep laying on the love, when you'd rather be doing other things.

I kept getting that periodic status report for many years and it seemed to be my Golden Tool for the relationship. Well, a few years ago -- I'd guess 4 or so -- I started to get very comfortable in the marriage. I started to forget how easy it was to lose her, how much life sucked before I found her, and how much it would suck again if I lost her. I also forgot the importance of asking her how happy she is. I have theories as to why I could never tell, but I don't know for sure. Now, in her bitter hatred of the walk-away wife, she says that I'm on the autism spectrum, whenever we discuss my inability to read her. That may be true, but I think the reasons were mostly because: 1. I'm a guy. We don't read females (or perhaps people in general) as well as other females do. 2. She puts on a happy face when she's not happy, and has admitted to this, and calls it "fake(ing) it until you make it". It's a great, "be positive", way to live, but it robs the spouse of important feedback. 3. She gives very positive feedback, like very sweet cards saying everything is fine, when things aren't fine. She gave me a sweet card for our anniversary in November this past year, where she hand-wrote in the card about how she loved me, how happy she was to have me in her life, and how she wanted to spend many more years growing with me. Somewhere between 1 and 2 weeks later, she went cold on me, and started building a wall of hate. During that 1 or 2 week period, nothing of any significance happened, that I'm aware of. She didn't catch me cheating on her or anything like that (which I have never done).

When I noticed that she seemed to be fake-smiling, whenever I entered the room, I started becoming concerned, and I sat down with her one night to approach her about it right after noticing her doing it, and she told me she wasn't sure she wanted to be with me any more. She said I was becoming weird as hell, absorbed in my own head. I didn't listen well and follow along well with things. She also brought up the recent weekend anniversary trip that we made, and complained that I had slept too late on the trip, and she was just sick of dealing with someone that wasn't a good traveller. She also mentioned my lack of desire to have friends and get out. She basically complained that she was sick of feeling like I was her ball and chain. Throughout our relationship, I have had big issues with travel anxiety and with a lacking desire to get out of the house in general, and with a lack of interest in socializing. I don't think I'd ever tell her "no" to much of anything, but I would often complain or act disinterested. So, these were the main issues at the time of the first bomb drop, that she complained about.

She spent the next few weeks becoming colder and more and more distant with me. It was like she was weaning me off of her. We still had some sex, but it was less frequent. She acted like she didn't care about anything in the house and was giving up. She wasn't cooking anymore. She wouldn't snuggle me much or show much affection. She was saying "I love you" less and less, and this girl used to say "I love you" almost too much at times (several times a day). Too much to me, anyway. (Now, I'd give anything to hear her say it unprompted and genuinely.) I don't think she would repeat it back to me at this point. I haven't told her I love her in weeks. She bought some CD's with songs about breaking up and hating men, and she would blast them in the house while I was around. "What kind of man loves like you?" and "Did I build a ship to wreck?" It killed me inside to hear this stuff. She was building a wall of hate. During this month or so (the month of December), I was writing her letters just about every day, averaging about 2 pages a piece, where I was pleading with her to stay and give me another chance, telling her about how I didn't understand how unhappy she was -- I didn't even know she was unhappy, telling her about my lack of appreciation and how I had become too comfortable in the marriage -- so on and so on. How I'd do so much better now, because I've been shaken awake by what she was doing. Nothing budged her hardly. She rarely wrote me back or responded to what I wrote her, unless it was just a few sentences of a response.

She left on December 28th. A few days later, she wrote me a long email, a massive list of 17 general things that she complained about: laziness about helping with chores; too much time on the computer (I was too into my hobbies; she says she suspected I was having a cyber-affair with someone (I wasn't), she complained about me looking at porn, which I did do some of, but in the past she always would just say "well, I know that all guys do it..." and that would be that); lack of life skills, like cooking; unreliability/lateness; she said I was scared of everything (I have issues with anxiety and depression); complained that I was sort of mean about her appearance in that I didn't show enough sexual interest in her (I showed a lot, but I can see why she would think it's lacking); said I was weak physically and mentally and whiny; she complained that I was spoiled and that it was her fault that she let me be so weak and whiny; she said I was "nickel and diming" her, which I think is kind of a made up complaint mostly (she seemed to only be referring to us agreeing that she do more chores in exchange for me paying a larger share of the bills (we agreed to that, I thought); complained that I didn't want her to do things that might form a wedge between us; I made easy things hard; she said I didn't want her to think much of herself, which in my opinion is another made up reason to be mad at me (I simply didn't like when she vocally complimented herself or responded to one of my compliments with, "mmmhmmm", like she saying "I know". It hurt my feelings.); said I wasn't interested in personal growth, which I think is kind of unfair; said I don't have friends and don't nurture relationships with family; continuously puts it back in my face the one time that she said I laughed when she was crying and begging me for something (I'm sure that my "laugh" was just a smirk; I probably just thought she seemed like she was overreacting to something, but I by no means wanted to hurt her feelings); she complained of lack of sex (we had sex pretty much once a week, usually on Sundays; so a little lacking, but not that bad; she has always said that I was good at sex and that it was good for the most part, just not often enough for her). I know that my looking at porn some during the week affected my desire to want to have sex more often, so I greatly regret doing that now, but hindsight is 20/20, and besides, it was just one of her many complaints. I don't think it was a core issue. The point of me posting all of these complaints for you is to show you how she only gave a few initial reasons, mostly about me not being outgoing, adventurous, and fun enough, and then later morphed into all of this stuff (an email that was 4 pages long, single-spaced, when pasted to a word processor). That told me that she had done a lot of looking for things about me to hate to help her build up her wall of hate. I will admit, though, that most of these complaints are valid. It's just interesting that initially her reasons were about me not being fun enough.

I think the core issues were that I had gotten too comfortable in the marriage, I couldn't read her, I was inexperienced and not knowledgeable in how to please a woman (argued with her instead of trying to understand her feelings and empathize, forgot (or never really knew) how important romance and intimacy is to a woman, etc.). All of these problems that I'm aware of, and that she is aware of, are fixable. They just require me putting in a lot more effort, which now that I have been separated from her for about 6 weeks, I am extremely motivated to do everything I can to fix the marriage. I was extremely motivated as soon as she said she wasn't sure she wanted to be with me, but now I'm even more motivated. Ever since she first told me she wasn't sure she wanted to stay with me (I think that was late November), I have done nothing but think about her and how to fix things. I completely stopped working on my hobbies that I was too into before -- have had no desire to work on them. I have done what I have had to do, like keep my employer happy, but other than that, I've been thinking about her, reading about fixing the marriage, watching videos, trying to do anything I could think to do to change her mind, including working on me, and making long overdue repairs to the house.

Update to the present: I have gradually cut out the letters, since early January, probably, and have lessened and lessened my contact with her. At the end of January, she moved just about all of her stuff out of the house, and into a small house that she is renting. I try to give her space now. And I constantly wrestle with whether to contact her. Because one of her main complaints was me being neglectful of her, I am terrified of using the Last Resort Technique. I saw where one person here, who was also guilty of being neglectful with their wife, was able to bring their wife back, after using the LRT. (Post: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2705013#Post2705013) So that has given me a little confidence in using it, but I'm still scared.

My wife rarely ever makes contact with me. Last week she asked if I wanted her and our dog to come visit on Sunday. I agreed. I found the visit to be very platonic, disappointing, and seemed focused on her getting more of her stuff from the house. She also called me on Tuesday night to ask me how I wanted to receive the separation papers, that she had told me, on Sunday night, were in the works. That conversation, like many others that go into the realm of relationship talk, slowly ended in a firestorm of rage on her side. She was telling me, "I love you", but in a mean, teasing kind of way at the end of the conversation, in a way that she clearly didn't mean. She rarely starts off mean, but it snowballs in an argument. I had argued that she was rushing things, not giving herself time to change her mind. After all, look at how fast she went from giving me an anniversary card that basically said "everything's good" to going stone cold on me a week or two later. She had only moved out about 5 weeks prior to pursuing official separation arrangements. And separation is going to cost her $4,000. How likely is she going to want to undo it later? It would take a whole lot of desire to get back with me to want to undo that. She basically said, "yeah, but if we love each other and want to get back together, then it will be worth it." I see it as rushing to be able to date the guy that I suspect she is seeing, and rushing to make it harder for her to ever want to change her mind. I have felt the whole time like she has been fighting a large part of herself that wants to stay with me, and trying to beat that part of herself down and kill it, before it can take her back over.

I have long suspected, ever since she first dropped a bomb in late November, that she had become interested in a guy at work. I still don't know for sure at this point whether she is seeing someone else, but I'm still very, very suspicious that she is. As much as that girl loved me, and as much as I love her (though apparently I was very bad at showing it, which I understand), and as much as she needed me all the time, needed my attention, affection, and so on, I can't imagine how she could go cold turkey on me, without having someone else to take my place.

Hopefully in this long post, I have answered most people's questions. I am sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner. I have been busy with work, reading stuff like Divorce Remedy, other posts on this site, talking to family and friends, watching the Last Resort Technique video series (which I found very good), and so on. I have struggled the most with not arguing with my wife -- not trying to defend myself, especially. I have noticed that every time we get into an argument, it leads to an ultimate explosion of hate and tirades of complaints out of her, and seems to result in her wall becoming much thicker. When she attacks me, I need to just say "I'm very sorry you have felt that way" and do my best to keep her out of a tirade and off the subject. I now struggle over whether or not I should pursue her and how much. It seemed that when I was calling her a week or two ago at the end of every night, and sticking to non-relationship talk, that things seemed to be getting better. She has/had always had a strong desire for my attention and has continuously complained of a lacking in my attention. So, I have thought that maybe me contacting her every night for a short friendly chat was a good thing. We seemed to get along well when we were doing that. And I know that the most important rule is probably to do what seems to work, and not do what seems to not work. But I'm just so afraid that what I should be doing is detaching. The longest I've gone without contacting her (I also made myself invisible online) was four days, I believe, back in January. She didn't contact me throughout that time, I don't think, and acted unphased by it. Maybe it wasn't long enough. I'm just so torn between reaching out to her (in small very friendly doses) or detaching. I don't want to make the wrong choice and hurt my situation with her even more. I'm expecting separation papers any day. So, it's already in a very bad situation. What should I do?

[WshIKnw]

I want to also point out that during the summer, we planned to start trying to have kids in October. When October rolled around, she brought up kids at some point, and I kind of gave my usual, "yeah, I'm still scared of such and such", but I didn't say "no". In late November, she was going cold. She has not given kids as the reason why. But many, including myself, have wondered.

It's so strange that she so recently was ready to have kids with me, yet she was so unhappy that she needed to leave a few months later? I had probably gotten a little slacker in being a good husband during this time, but hadn't done anything major, like cheating. She's the one that has made a sudden transformation -- a sudden decision.

She gave no warnings that she was thinking about leaving me or nearing the end of her rope -- no ultimatums. She would complain about things from time to time, in a very reasonable and loving manner, but I just had trouble "getting it" -- understanding how unhappy she was and how much she needed me to change.

[WshIKnw]

W and MIL just came. I was finishing my workout when they came. W was very quiet and angry acting. MIL acted normal, and a little somber. W got what we think are all of her things from the garage, and hopefully from the rest of the house. I hate watching her take things from the house. I hope we are done with that. MIL keeps saying that she is staying out of it. Some how I feel like Miss [MIL] feels sorry for me and thinks W is being foolish, but it's just a very slight feeling about that that I have. I could be wrong. She won't say much. W said I didn't appreciate all the things she left in the house. She wouldn't tell me why at first. She finally told me that it was because I fussed about her wanting $40,000 of our house's equity, while only wanting to give me $1,800 for what I put into our old house, that she now rents out (that house is in her and her mom's name). After that, she started taking more things out of the house that she previously intended to leave for me, like the mirrors in the foyer area. Hopefully now she has gotten all of her stuff out of the house. I just let her take what she wanted, that was hers, and didn't put up a fight, except on a rug that she had said she was leaving me as part of an exchange for furniture I agreed to let her have, since I don't want her to run me through the ringer, if she can, and because I don't want to fuel her anger. She is a basket of emotions. Right before she left, I saw a glimpse of the W that I love. She turned around and looked at me with a sad face and motioned for a hug. I said "you want a hug?" She said "kind of", or "yes". I can't remember. I gave her a good hug. It was long. She hugged me tightly. She didn't push me off. I whispered to her that I was sorry, and I think she said she was too. I couldn't really hear her. Then they left.

I thought about asking her for the garage door opener, but I'm trying not to make her mad at all, because she might be able to really run me through the ringer, if she goes through with the separation agreement, and asks for what the law might give her. There is a difference between what is lawful and what is fair. I told W, shortly before they left, before the nice hug, that we could sit down and discuss what's fair. MIL said we shouldn't do that. She didn't want us to get upset. I told her that's probably a good idea, and I'm glad she said that. After they left, I sent MIL a text message telling her that I was so sorry for all of the trouble.

This is not how this story is supposed to go.

I'm so glad I have you folks to talk to.

[Cadet]

Just remember that blood is thicker than water.

Your MIL is always going to side with her daughter when the
chips are down

[WshIKnw]

Yeah, thanks for the reminder. But it gives me some hope in thinking that maybe she thinks what her daughter is doing is wrong/stupid. Maybe she has tried a little to talk sense into W. I know that I could never count on my in-laws to openly side with me, especially on large things, because they need W in their lives. Some of them, though, really don't mind speaking their mind at the cost of their relationship with their family. So, some might would side with me, especially the religious father, but he is divorced from her mom. So, he probably doesn't have much room to preach, unless he made it clear that he was not innocent and had made mistakes in his life, and didn't want her to fall in the same traps.

[WshIKnw]

Does anyone know a fast way to get all of someone's pictures off of Facebook? The only way I see to do it is by opening up each picture one by one and saving it manually, and then you don't get their captions and stuff with it, either. I'm so afraid my wife is going to start deleting pictures off of Facebook soon. Do you guys go through this? Fear that she is going to destroy things that were dear to us both, like pictures? She recently quit wearing her diamond, and is only wearing the wedding band (at least in front of me). I fear that she has already sold the diamond, to pay for the separation, but I doubt she has. But who knows? She is so crazy right now. She is the alien that everyone talks about.

[WshIKnw]

Has your W been in any previous long-term relationship, or are you the first one?

She had a few boyfriends, one that lasted like 2 or 3 years, I think, before me. I got with her right before she turned 21.

Did your W have a fairly normal/healthy childhood?

As far as I know. She wasn't abused, that she can remember. Her father was apparently very aloof, and her parents divorced when she was like 9 or something. She still barely talks to him and sees him. Her parents have a cat and dog relationship now. Her brother has always had emotional/development problems and has been very taxing on the family.

My dad and step mom are saying to sweep her off her feet with romance.

If your W has some other guy in her head, then the advice to sweep her off her feet with romance will not work at all. In fact, it will make matters worse. You see, whenever a married woman opens her heart to some other man, she shuts downs her heart to her husband. It's not like it might have been when you were dating before marriage. Not if she has brought a third party into the MR (either emotionally, physically, or just her imagination). So, I think you can mark that particular advice off the list.

I don't, unfortunately, yet know whether there is another man. I just have very strong suspicions. She denies that I'm competing with anyone else for her affection, except with our/her dog, she says. I do think that at the very least, the other man could be imaginative. She has said that she began looking around and seeing what other couples have, seeing how other men treated her, and began to wonder whether she could have that. And there is one married guy in particular that she has spoken very fondly of. He has kids, as well. Apparently his wife is terrible, according to my wife and what she says her coworkers say. I have other reasons to believe my wife is into this guy.

but do think it's possible she could have become physical, at least by 'accident'

Would you explain what you mean by accident?

By 'accident', I mean having a sexual encounter with someone without setting out to, like doing it in the moment -- not premeditated.

My advice is to forget about going dark. You need to read Divorce Remedy, first of all. The way I understand "going dark" is the absolutely last option, where you basically fall off the planet....for all your W knows. There are too many other things to do, other than going dark. But this is what happens when someone jumps into things before they understand what they are really doing.

I get detaching and going dark confused. I need to review the difference. I am planning to now do a light version of going dark, which might just be a strong detachment. I won't ignore her if she contacts me (I may a little, just to play hard to get), but I won't initiate contact or pursue her. And I won't be quick to come to her needs if I were to be so fortunate as to have her react by pursuing me. Because I don't want to fall into a distance/pursuit trap. I may give in to her the first time, though, just to test the waters to see whether she will "slam dunk" me or whatever and distance herself again.

I have been worried that because she considered me a neglectful husband, that detaching would just be more of the same, but because I initially spent weeks pursuing the hell out of her, after the bomb drop, with little positive result, and because my pursuits sometimes result in argument fights that end in a mushroom cloud of rage out of her, I figure I am just better off giving her tons of space and not letting on that I still want her. It's very hard for me to not defend myself when she attacks. And I have found that the distance between us seems to multiply after fights, probably because her anger fuels her wall of hate. Where will she get fuel for her hate, if I'm not giving it to her? And when her hate subsides, how will she handle the feelings that remain? Will they be feelings that benefit me? The last time I saw her, I think I was pretty much exactly the way I needed to be -- cool, calm, collected, kind, and compassionate. It ended with a fantastic hug and glimpse of the sweet wife trapped inside the demon. I will leave her with that last taste in her mouth for a while.

[WshIKnw]

W stopped by today to get a piece of mail that I told her she had that had "urgent" kind of notices on it. We talked for about 20-25 minutes, I would guess. It was the W that I knew and loved. She was just nice acting and sweet, but not like "I want you back" sweet, I don't think. Just sweet. She had just came from church. She said she went to the one near here that we used to go to. I told her that I had thought about going by myself, but didn't. We made good small talk, and I think I continued to act the way that I needed to act, like I was content and moving on with or without her, even though I'd been upset before, and after, she was here. Small talk was very pleasant. I can't remember whether she asked anything about me, but she talked about what she had been doing. She initiated the departure, but I didn't try to hold her back and avoided acting disappointed. She again motioned for a hug today. I stood on a lower step so that I could give her a good hug. I gave her a nice one and rubbed her back some. I didn't try to kiss her head, nor did I yesterday. I let go as soon as she started to. I'm really supposed to probably initiate ending of contact, but it's so hard to be the first to end something that you wish you could spend the entire day doing. It turned out that the mail was very unimportant, and she didn't think it would be very important. So, it makes me wonder how much she was here to see me versus to get the mail.

She left and came back and called me. Said she noticed her right mirror was missing. We went walking down the street looking for it, and couldn't find it. She said earlier that she thought she had hit something. We had figured she just ran over a toy in the street or something. We didn't find the mirror. I looked to see if it was stuck under her car. Didn't see it. She wiped dirt and grass off of the back of my shirt when I stood up. I noticed she had a pack of cigarettes in the back of her car. Over the years that I have known her, she smokes from time to time when she is stressed. She also smokes when she is being social sometimes, but she wouldn't have a whole pack if that was the case -- she would bum one off of someone. So, that's just more evidence that she is torn up by all of this.

She left and called me again to tell me she had stopped at a neighbor's house to ask if they had seen her mirror, and they had, and gave it to her. I don't know why they would pick the mirror up rather than let the person come back and notice it on the ground, but anyway. There was no damage to the mail box and the only damage to her mirror appeared to be little brackets, that the dealership would probably have to replace for her. She said she just needed someone to pop it back on for her probably, and was quick to follow that with, "and I know some guys at work that would love to work on something like that". I figured that the "guys" were probably POM. She was very quick to want to get off the phone after that. I never tried to offer to fix it for her. But I think she was clearly scared that I would. That's fine. Improvements don't usually happen in leaps and bounds. It's usually very gradual, from what I have read here. The fact that she came, acted like her old self (other than not acting like she's mine), left on perfectly good terms, wanted another hug today -- I think that's improvement. I can't expect big improvements. I have to take what I can get and celebrate them. It hurts when she leaves, though, every time I see her.