Thanks for checking up on me FG and cheesyt. To tell you the truth I feel exhausted and frustrated right now. I've been trying to combat that with gym time but it means I need to wake up at 5am everyday so no time in the evenings to post on here as of late.
I'm getting very tired of things the way they are right now with my W. She has been very agitated the past week or so and it's wearing on me. I'll post an update tomorrow with what's been going on with my last week or so. Just need to get some sleep this evening and recharge.
Don/MV/Gordie, I'll respond tomorrow to your posts. Sorry for not replying sooner. But high level I think I'm going to have a conversation this weekend with my W laying out what I need. Not to pressure her or to force her to act/react but more because I think it needs to be said and the status quo needs to be challenged.
I look back at what I was telling my W before we settled into this limbo. I told her I was unwilling to go back to a M that was like it was before (us avoiding each other and her being angry all the time). Now its fully her avoiding me and being angry. I can't control that, but I can tell her that I need a partner who wants to be with me. To keep my word and be true to myself I need to force us out of his horrible limbo.
High level, I think it's something like this:
"Last weekend you told me that we can't even have a conversation with each other. When I asked you what was keeping us from conversing, you didn't answer and just stared off into space. I can see that you're not happy right now. I'm also not happy right now. Im not ok with either one of us being in an unhappy situation.
During this whole thing I've said I'm not willing for us to go back to a M like it was before. I need a partner who enjoys being with me. I need someone who is willing to let me love them and who loves me back. I do love you but I refuse to live like this."
Something like that pretty much and just go from there. IC thinks I need to up the level of challenge with her as this is moving at a glacial pace. I agree, as I'm unwilling to live like this with someone who in all honesty is acting like a brat. IC says with an uppage in challenge I also need to increase my support. So I'll work on that too.
Right now I see two paths. One is that I grind out this existence until D goes to college and W then pushes the S and D. Two is that I push back on her and we either S and D right now, or we make some progress. The second option is really the only one that has any chance of a positive outcome.
So that's my dilemma but the choice seems obvious to me. It's tough to get up the nerve to have that conversation but I know I can get through it unemotionally. I've had one hell of a brutal training course in handling that stuff the past 7 months.
It still frightens me to think of my time with my D being broken up. But I just don't see how I could be the best parent I can be if W is going to be this horribly negative presence in our lives for the next 9 yrs. D deserves better and so do I.
I'll post some more tomorrow. Sorry I've been absent. I really just had to get away for a bit. Know that each and every one of you is appreciated more than you'll ever know.
Me39 M11 : T13 D9 BD 5/31/16 In House S until 6/21/17 Divorced 10/5/18
Glad to see you posted LT. Sounds like a lot of us that got on here at the same time are all at the same place. You have to do what is best for YOU and ur D!! This stuff wears on you after awhile if you focus to much on it so I hope you know you deserve the best!!!! :-). Hang in there!
W:42 M:48 T:9 yrs M:1yr BD: Feb 2016 EA Confirmed: Feb 2016/PA July 2016 D: Feb 2017
Hawk! Always awesome to see you. I hope you are doing well too my friend. We do seem to be hitting a wall somewhat as a group right now. Highly frustrating but not wholly unexpected. Thank you for the kind words.
FG, I agree. That path is not an option. I'll not put things on hold for 9 yrs to grind out an existence with someone who does not want to share a life with me. It'll make me a worse dad bc of the strain I think as well. If W does not want to work on us then there needs to be another path for all of us unfortunately.
Don/MV/Gordie, I'm sorry I didn't respond today. Will repond tomorrow if that's ok. Need to do some quick journaling before bed.
Work today. Sent W a message from work. Told her:
M: We have a team for the tough mudder this summer. You should join us. It'd be a lot of fun! Sending you an email if you want to take a look. We could get someone to watch D that morning.
W: No W: Don't need you to send it to me
M: sounds good
W: ?
M: Not interested in it? Would be fun to have you there but all good
W: Let me get this straight...we haven't had a conversation in years or done anything as a couple in close to ten. Why are you suddenly pretending you want us to do some stupid fitness thing together? Honestly. What is your point here?
M: Thought it would be a fun thing to do. If you don't want to do it that's ok.
Figured I'd reach out and attempt to include her in our race this summer. Some vile coming back but I actually felt pretty good for asking her for some reason. The response wasn't unexpected but my offer was something different from the norm.
Then tonight after we put D to bed we had scheduled time to talk about selling our house and moving into another one that's in the middle school district we want D to be in bc of her friends. Last Monday when I asked W what she wanted in a new house she told me it didn't matter. She also said "how can we look for a house together when we can't even have a conversation". I asked her what she thought was keeping us from having a conversation and she just stared off into space and didn't answer. Also, about a week ago W made a comment about how when she came home for awhile after college her mom made her sleep on her brothers floor bc she didn't want to mess up the guest bedroom. W then told D that the reason why she gets so angry sometimes is bc she gets it from her mother. I tell W that she's nothing like her mom and she's a wonderful mother. No response but I believe it was the right thing to say. I mention this bc it's relevant to our conversation tonight.
So we sit down on the couch and she begrudgingly has a conversation with me. It goes like this...
She tells me she'd like to rent a house, move all our stuff in there, and then sell our house empty. She says that bc we don't have a ton of furniture it would show better that way. I mention that we could get a storage unit to get stuff into to make the house less cluttered to show. She keeps coming back to renting a place and moving in there for a year so we don't have to rush into buying a house we don't want. W also mentions Ds school will sign a waiver to keep her there if we move out of the district.
We talked about the work we need to do and the realtors thoughts about the house. W got mad bc I asked why not buy a house if we find one. I asked her what she was looking for in a place. She said she didn't care and I would just override her anyway and not listen to her. I told her that's not what I wanted as part of this process. Told her I wanted us to make the decisions as partners. She said we aren't capable of working as a team on anything. I should just find a house and tell her to look at it. She said she didn't want to buy a house bc I promised to do all sorts of work on this house and I never followed through. I told her I'm sorry she felt that way but I do not agree. I expressed my concern that we rent a place and can't sell this place. She asked if it was as big of a problem if she was working. I told her it would help but it's still an issue. She said she wanted to go back to work full time but she could t bc of all the house responsibilities. I told her that we should make a list and split the work. I'm happy to help with the workload. She told me there's no way she'd believe me after I didn't do it with this house.
Silence then I told her I can see that you are unhappy and I'm not ok with you being unhappy. W tells me f$ck you, you have no right to tell me that. She gets up, cries, checks on D, blows nose and comes back. I tell her again that I'm not ok with her being unhappy and I'm unhappy too. She says where was I the past ten years when she was begging me to change bc she was unhappy. Where was I when she was doing everything from work to childcare to house stuff. I tell her that none of us should be unhappy. I need someone who will love me and who will let me love them. She starts to talk about D. How D is miserable around me the past 3 weeks. How I haven't listened to her over that period and it's crushed her. I tell W that I'll talk to D and discuss what's going on but that I can manage that with her. I tell her that my relationship with D is the strongest it's ever been. She starts to cry and says that's what breaks her heart. That I cannot see that's not the case. That i can't see i don't have a good relationship with D. I tell W I'll talk to D about it and that D is the most important thing to me in the world.
W tells me this is as good as it gets and she's barely holding it together. I tell W that I love D and I love her. But That if this is as good as it gets we need to discuss things. I tell her I'm not ok with anyone being unhappy. That I want each of us to be happy and be a family. W tells me we have never been a family (ouch). Not once in the past ten years. I tell her I'm sorry she's felt that way but I don't agree with it. She says I never agree with anything anymore. She says we need to figure out one problem at a time and figure out the house stuff as that's the most pressing. I point back to her conversation about her mom making her sleep on the floor. I tell her that I'm not ok with anyone in our family being forced to sleep on the floor. I'm not ok with anyone feeling like an outsider in our family. She tells me to figure out what I want to do and come back to her. I respond that we need to figure that out together and again if this is as good as it gets we need to discuss this. I tell her let's make the checklist of things to work on for the house together tomorrow and then we can discuss things and I get up and go upstairs.
So, had the conversation I'd mentioned in my last post this evening. Not exactly how I'd wanted it to flow but I'm hoping the message was received that I'm unwilling to continue down this path. W needs to know that going back to our previous M is unacceptable to me. We will see. Off to bed as I'm wiped out. Thank you all for your thoughts and support.
Me39 M11 : T13 D9 BD 5/31/16 In House S until 6/21/17 Divorced 10/5/18
Oh man, LT. Something is really wrong. This doesn't read like a normal conversation. She has such contempt for you, yet won't articulate it or try to resolve it. She could resolve it by working on the problem or walk away. But she seems stuck. And renting a house so you can sell a house empty? I've never heard of that. That's loopy! And every "bid" you make to make a connection (to use Gottman's paradigm), she rejects with anger. She hates you but can't leave you. So weird!
Me: 50, MLC/WW 45 Young kids Nov 2015: BD1 Apr 2016: BD2 Jan 2017: W filed Feb 2017: D final
I'm with Gump. She really is struggling but almost want to stay mad. That's her pay off in all of this. She wants the drama and want to be mad. Then she comes up with crazy ideas and is upset when you shoot them down. For example this house thing. Good Lord people PAY MONEY to have an empty house staged with furniture because any realtor with anything will tell you a furnished house sells easier and for more money!
Sadly I think you may have to just do things without her. Tell her look. I want to do thus WITH you but either way I'm doing it. And then do it - whatever it is. She doesn't want to feel better. I don't know if it's her depression or what but the last thing she wants is for you and D to be doing well. She likely sees you are so then wants to down okay it. If it was a bright sunshine day she's find a reason to complain.
I really think you have to be as sting as you can be and not allow her to do this. If she claims that you and D are not doing well, force her to give you a solid example. If it's not true you may have to get D and ask right in front of W "mom tells me I may gave upset you when I stirred the milk with a knife. Dud that bother you D because if it did I really want to know." When D confirms it was not a problem W gas no leg to stand on. Then fine and repeat
Mist sadly, the only thing W may respond to is you dropping the toe and moving on. That may be the only thing that shakes her awake!
DonH Midwest Me 56 WAW-EXW 55 Met 11/95 / Married 5/00 Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06 4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
FG, yeah, every time I attempt to attune with her it's instantly shot down, trampled on, then set on fire. IC and I discussed how to approach the conversation we just had and he told me to expect her to initially push me away as a result of it. Seems like anytime I make a bid it just causes her to stiff arm me instead of allowing me to get closer.
On the house, yeah that was unexpected. I'm not sure in what world that makes sense. The only thought I have is that she's being less than truthful to me and the house sale unlocks some of our home equity for her and the rental makes it easier to break free. She should know by now though that all she has to do is say she's leaving and she can go. The only stipulation I have is I won't take less than 50/50 time with my D. Everything else is negotiable. But she still continues to stay and Act like a sulking teenager. Very frustrating.
She articulates how bad of a person I am and how horribly I treated her in the past. She's very pointed at commenting where she know thinks it will hurt me (we were never a family). She doesn't realize that after our August blowup though, I won't give her the joy of pushing my buttons. It [censored] bc this is not a person I'm willing to spend my life, or even 9 more years with. I'm hoping the conversation last night gets her thinking about either an exit or actually working on things. I can't do this alone, at least not with the walls she has erected. But yes, I agree, she does seem to hate me. Not sure how I'm supposed to work through that.
DonH, on your post a week ago I do agree that she seemed to be hinting at me needing to challenge her more. She made a couple other comments around sex type stuff after that in an off handed way. In the past she actually told me one time that I needed to stick up for myself more. Guess I should have listened back then. But I do think challenge is needed right now. Either to break down her walls or just for my sanity. I'm trying not to let the last conversation wear on me but man it's brutal at times.
She very much seems to want to stay mad. I almost think it may be her way of avoiding having to face her issues that have contributed to this. If she can pin all the blame on me then she never needs to face her demons. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to get her out of an angry state.
On the house thing I am going to get the realtor out to the house and have her opine on how best to sell it. I agree that what wife is proposing is off kilter. You may be right that she doesn't want to feel better. It would explain a lot. Unsure why she wouldn't though. I know my R with my D is on firm ground. If it was not then I don't think D would want to do all the things we do together. Had a good snuggle session with her while watching a movie tonight. Love that kid.
Let me think of the best way to get an example out of her. I've done that before and she hasn't been able to give one. I've wondered if W is just projecting her feelings and thoughts onto D. i.e. When she talks about D she's really talking about herself. It's about the only thing that'd make sense to me, though none of this really does. I have no clue what will shake her awake though. I'm going to keep firm that I can't live like this and push back. I'll validate where I can but I won't affirm nonsense. I really can't live like this. Life is too short and I know that I can make a good home for D without W if it comes to that. She's welcome to join us but I can't force her to, nor will I.
MV, I'd be curious to get your thoughts around the conversation yesterday and how I follow it up. I tried to leverage your thoughts from a week ago as I agree with them.
Thanks to all of you for the aid and support. Would be lost without you.
Me39 M11 : T13 D9 BD 5/31/16 In House S until 6/21/17 Divorced 10/5/18
I'm sorry but your wife just sounds like she's in poor mental health. I'm not saying that to be dismissive of your marital problems. I'm sure you two have serious marital issues, like all marriages do. But your wife appears unable to conduct any kind of reasonable and constructive dialog with you. Her mind is stuck on anger and contempt, and is just unreasonable. DonH suggests eminently reasonable ways to try to work through disagreements but that assumes your wife will converse with you in a reasonable way. I don't see it happening. Do you?
It seems to me that the first priority must be for your wife to regain some mental health. That is, for her to know what she wants, and take reasonable steps towards her desired goals. Right now I see someone who cannot articulate what she wants, and even if she does, she is unable to take steps towards achieving them.
Is there a way to get her into counseling? Maybe you can suggest that you find a counselor who will simply help you talk to each other -- not about saving the marriage, just communicate and understand each other. I seem to recall there is a type of counselor who specializes in having couples simply evaluate whether they should stay together or divorce. Maybe something like that, she might palatable? You wouldn't be dragging here there to necessarily save your marriage. You'd be going just to understand where you are.
I guess if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't give up on your marriage until/unless you've done all you can to get your wife professional help. If she is resolute in refusing professional help... then I think you have to think about letting her go.
Me: 50, MLC/WW 45 Young kids Nov 2015: BD1 Apr 2016: BD2 Jan 2017: W filed Feb 2017: D final
Wow, once again Gump hits it out of the park. I totally agree with every word!
Sorry about my typo-laden response. Not sure how autocorrect helps? Hope you were able to read around all of it.
You are very correct that much of what W says about D is really her thoughts about you. I don't think she even understands she is doing it! When she says you are dong whatever and it bothers D it's really W that is bothered. Sadly the same happens to D. I remember your D saying she wishes you would not agitate mom - well that is 100% your W telling D that. There is no way a child would come up with that on her own. She hears her mother talk like that and repeats it.
Once again my largest concern is that your D has a very good chance of growing up to be just like her mom. She has seen this behavior modeled for her so she thinks this is normal and how a W should behave.
Again, Gump has very much nailed it in that W is too sick to be able to work through any of this. She really needs professional help and if there is any way you can help that to happen, it would be a gift to her and then down the road potentially to your M. I agree that she is not being rational so any rational ideas won't work.
Again, I don't think W will change unless forced to. Her payoff and security is staying mad and claiming it's all your fault. You must not bow to her crazy making. You have to stay calm and rational. Thing is, if allowed to, W will keep dong this as her anxiety won't allow her to get help. If she sees she will lose D 50% of the time as well as lose her security of job and income, she may be forced to fix this. It is no different and actually the same as a H that has his W complaining all the time. She tries to get him to look at the M, fix his issues and stand up and work on the M. He does nothing until the day the bomb is dropped. When that happens, he will move mountains to save his M. I see your W needing and doing the same. It may be your only shot. Sadly, you may get to the point, like a waw that you no longer want her. I hope you can get her light bulb to turn on before that
Like all Rs this is not all your W. It's the dynamic you and her have followed for years. That is now changing and your M may survive it or not. Time will tell. There are things you will have to change as well to fix your half but for any of that to happen W has to get out of the depression she is in. Gumps suggestion of seeing someone to communicate better might allow that to happen.
DonH Midwest Me 56 WAW-EXW 55 Met 11/95 / Married 5/00 Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06 4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
