How Do We Know If Its MLC or If They Are Really Sa

[AndrewP]

FightOn - I thought I'd just stop by and say "hi". You seem to be doing fairly well mentally but struggling with the "limbo". That's perfectly normal.

I would suggest that your H is indeed "cake-eating" being under the same roof but being able to play in his fairy-tale world too. I don't really know what to suggest. Turning into a screaming harpie is probably a bad idea but making his actions have consequences might be a good one. I'm not sure what to suggest though.

[FightOn]

Hi Andrew P! Thanks for stopping by!

Yeah, cake-eating is the perfect way to describe what he is doing. My DB coach said to wait it out and the affair (now affairs) won't last. I have faith and believe what she is saying, but then there is that little voice in the back warning me to prepare for the worst.

This is one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. And what makes it even harder is the knowledge that my family will be separated.

I am keeping some very simple mantras close at hand:

1. Don't think too far ahead into the future
2. Back off and let him be
3. Focus on myself and my beautiful son

I figure if I can hang on and just do these things, things will work out one way or another.

[FightOn]

I am looking for some advice on how to proceed and what to say . . . So here is the sitch . . .

Last night when H was putting son down for bed, son started crying as I left the room. Son was holding his arms out and crying "mama, mama, mama!" H commented that son just doesn't care about him and isn't interested in him. While this may be partially true, it isn't completely true. When H came home earlier in the evening, son ran to him and hugged his pant legs and repeated "dada, dada."

I tried affirm to him that son does indeed care about him. But I don't think he believed it. Not surprisingly and not that I expected it to. I should have immediately brought to his attention son's reaction when he came home, but didn't think of it right away.

My question is this: Should I bring it up tonight at dinner to try to help? If so, how can I gently bring this subject up?

Admittedly, this is a sore subject with me for a number of reasons. One, I have a really hard time validating and trying to bolster his fragile ego when he treats me like garbage. Two, this has been a recurring issue in our marriage. In the past, I would make suggestions on how to help him and he would just ignore my suggestions. I would get so frustrated that he would complain about something, but then do absolutely nothing to fix the problem. It's like he would just want to complain - I don't get it. If the problem bothers you enough to complain, I don't understand not wanting to find a solution or at least trying to do something different.

So should I bring it up again? If so, how? In the past, I would offer suggestions so a 180 for me, would not to give advice (and I know I shouldn't offer advice for a MLC spouse), so what, if anything, should I do? And this is sure to come up again as he frequently whines about son's lack of connection to him so any tips on how to handle this in the future would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your help!!

[job]

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't bring up the issue again. You are already aware of his chronic complaining about things and not taking any action to correct/fix his complaints.

He already thinks that his son doesn't care about him and let's face it, no matter what you say, he's already formed his own opinion of the situation. Your child is very small at the moment and can only show his father that he cares by pulling on his pants leg. If he were older, he would be able to say I love you daddy...but he can't.

Some people are constant complainers and do nothing to help themselves. I still think it's best to just let things be. The next time he raises this issue w/you, why not just ask him "what makes you think your son doesn't care about you?" Ask the question and put it back on him to tell you just exactly why he feels that way.

[FightOn]

Thank you Job! Your response makes sense, in a MLC kinda way. Lol!

I would like to ask you two more questions. The first one relates to a conversation on HaWho and Altair's thread that has recently come up regarding the MLC and the six month high they feel after BD or divorce. It seems pretty consistent among MLC'ers. Is this consistent with your experience? What can you tell me about it?

Also, I have another situation for which I need some guidance. I have a standing appointment with my IC for a certain day of the week at certain time. H knows this. Every other week he has this day off so he is always willing to watch S on those days. On the days he does work, he has told me that he is willing to leave work early so I can go to my appointment. However, there have been a couple of instances where he has been late and I have missed my appointment.

I have recently come to realize that H is passive aggressive. I believe this lateness is a form of it. I also believe he may be attempting to force a confrontation by making me angry about missing the appointments. This is likely his way to force a conversation about D. (Since BD whenever we have a disagreement he has brings up D and how frustrated he is that we haven't discussed any of the details.)

While part of me would like to have a discussion with him about his being late, I fear it will escalate and he will bring up D. I have been thinking that the better way forward is to either just go to counseling every other week, or to ask my parents to come one day a week and watch S while I go to my appointment. By going my parent route, I think I can more easily minimize any disagreements as there will be nothing to disagree about. It is something I can simply do without any need for his input or help.

With what I am learning about MLC and passive aggressive behaviors, I am thinking I should ask my parents to watch S and leave the issue alone. What are your thoughts? And of course, if anyone else has any thoughts, please, please chime in.

[AndrewP]

FightOn - In my own case about 6 months after starting her affair my STBX was very much on top of the world believing that everyone loved her and supported her. I was treated with a fair amount of disgust and scorn.

This turned on a dime after I wrote her a letter begging her to reconcile she became depressed which was the theme for the next month that we were under the same roof. I don't know for sure how she did after she moved out but reports were that she was struggling and unhappy. I have no clue if my letter was the catalyst or reality or something else with respect to her mood shift. I do know that watching her face when she read my letter that I was able to see her mood shift to gloom and depressions.

[job]

A few people have posted about their MLCers and the 6-9 months of euphoric behavior they exhibit when they run away from home and after a divorce. This is very true for a majority of them. It's called "freedom". Freedom to do whatever they want and w/whoever they want. They no longer have the pressure of us nipping at their guilty little minds. It does tend to wear off and life gets back to a normal routine of working, spending money on necessities and cleaning up and yes, even taking care of their children on their own.

I would suggest that you find someone to take care of your children on the days he's offered to watch them, i.e., the days he works. As for the days he's off...you can still have him do so, however, if he's late those days, then you will either need to point this out to him in a nice way or find someone else to watch them. You can't rely on him, nor can you have expectations that he's going to act like the old h and be there to help you.

The lateness could be a PA move or his work is keeping him busy. There's no way to tell...at this time. Get a backup plan in place and use it. If he says something, you can always say "h, I've had to cancel a few appointments because you've been late on the days you've worked. So, to keep from canceling my appointments, I've asked XXX to watch them on those days".

[FightOn]

I recently finished reading Living With the Passive Aggressive Man by Scott Wetzler, and boy, oh boy, did that book hit the mark for me. As I began to read it, I realized this is exactly the dynamic that is/has played out between H and I. Based on the book, the unfortunate aspect of being a passive aggressive man is that there is little I can do to change the dynamic (the book suggests confrontation when it occurs, but with MLC, I am not sure that would be helpful). The WORK has to be done by the person harboring the passive aggressive tendencies, which consists of learning to express the unspoken anger motivating the passive aggression. Ha, that isn't happening. The book has stated that oftentimes, the person doesn't think he/she is doing anything at all. This fits my husband to a T.

The fact that he doesn't see anything wrong with his behavior is discouraging. I am afraid I will just have to let these instances go b/c when I bring them up (and perhaps I am inartful in the way in which I bring them up), seems to only stir up more anger and divisiveness. My work comes in the form of learning how to effectively deal with this issue. I must think of constructive ways of handling the conflict.

While I don't feel any resolution because H still seems to be engaging in the same ol' dysfunctional way of relating, at the very least I know what it is. Perhaps, more importantly, I have something concretely identifiable that I want addressed should we continue to stay married. The whole PA dynamic is crazy making (as the book describes). I feel a little more free because I understand something I didn't before. I feel like I have a target and I know where I can aim.

PS - H attending another training out of town this week. Probably skirting around. Oh well, at least I have a break from him.

[Sotto]

Hi, interesting reading - and ... is also recommended in this area...

When I read what you post I think - he will decide to change or he will not and that's up to him.

The part to focus on for you is your own sense of self and your own boundaries and what's okay for you.

I read once that it can always be helpful to give the option to say no - ie: suggest doing X, but let him know he can tell you if that doesn't work for him. Equally you can let him know - pleasantly - if something doesn't work for you.

Modelling the desired behaviour may also be an option - and a chance for you to practice those skills. And if he is/has behaved in a PA way, perhaps you could pleasantly say - 'you're always welcome to let me know if there's something you need' - or similar...

So - in essence - good to educate yourself and change yourself. How you approach an interaction affects the dynamic regardless of whether he chooses to change.

[job]

...book is an excellent one to read. I read it many, many years ago and it truly opened my eyes to my xh's PA behavior. One thing you need to understand, you can change the dynamics of your situation if you don't fall into his hole w/him. If he's late all of the time, then you have a Plan B and go w/it. In my case, my xh was late for meals, so I started eating w/o him. Every time we were planning to go somewhere and had a time to be at a specific function he would run and sit on the toilet and make us late. So, what did I do? I finally got fed up w/the behavior and advise him that I was going to go on to the function and if he wished to attend, he could drive himself. Guess what! He started being on time.

PA is a "learned" behavior for childhood. It's when a child has been basically told to shut up or do what I told you to do w/o being given an opportunity to express themselves, i.e., sound familiar? It's a bit of an emotionally "stunted" individual and that's part of the MLC mix because these folks were emotionally stunted.

So, instead of nagging him about what he's not doing, find other ways around them and if he says something just say, I couldn't wait any longer or I had someone come by and repair this or that, etc. PA individuals can change, but it takes a lot of patience and rubber band snapping on the wrist.

BTW, you weren't going crazy living w/a PA man...now you have a better understanding that it wasn't you...but him.