Help - boundaries. Am I doing th ewrong thing?

[Surfer]

Last night it was a bad day that triggered a mini spew - whiny D, illness and anxiety that day. Initially it was thank god you're back, I need help, but soon it was criticism of voice I was using with daughter - why are you using a baby voice too, speak to her like an adult, etc. All this in front of D. ( I had been trying to distract D with her toys, funny voices etc, to break her out of her whinge, you know how kids are). I did react mildly, initially, but did get W to go downstairs once D was ready for bed so she could relax. I could then read story, get D to sleep.

This is just normal life. Tired Mum, good Dad. She is poking you to get a rise. She is anxious. I don't know why, neither do you. You never will and she most likely will never share her true feelings with you on this. I think your answer lies somewhere in "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" book. It could be medically based. It might, at present, be addiction anxiety, pre-occupied with a 'need to get a fix of OM' or a 'need' to let go at you. Either way. Just do not engage.

You will see this is the main point of my advice at this stage. I have lived exactly what you have been through. I know it intimately as do many others here. You need to develop skills to detach from her when spew happens. This means seeing and hearing her but not feeling her emotions. I was trying to think last night of the best way to describe how this works - I didn't spend too long clearly but I came up with this, it does the job:

You are standing at the checkout, too middle senior ladies are there. One accidentally bumps into the other with her shopping trolley. An argument ensues. Its heated and its got come venom. But you know there will be no danger. It's just venom. You observe. Inside it's even mildly amusing but you don't show that. You are more kind of "this is just a sad way to behave". You listen and are objective about what they say as a person within reach". You leave and go about your day and think nothing more of it (at this stage, the argument has stopped, is ongoing or one of the ladies is being cuffed and scuffed only floor by the local militia). Try and picture a way of observing your W when she pokes you (this is "rage foreplay" - recognise it decline it) or even goes Victim - don't Rescue, validate "that sounds hard etc"(Windsor Davies inside). Also, if one of the old ladies invited you into the debate what would you do? Decline! (see Let's you and Him Have a Fight - "Games People Play" by Eric Berne).

Surfer.

[Surfer]

focus on attentive listening & validation.

Perfect. Don't over validate though. You are not some pu$$y. You must be a man about this. Be kind and caring, as you are clearly, but FFS do not let her have you b@lls as earrings. A Windsor Davies attitude inside will help YOU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4uivPpzCGo). You will get to the point of treating her like a nosey neighbour. This is good for the time being. She has something to get out of her system (the Fog) - be prepared that she may not fully; but she definitely can improve. She is showing you this in short term changes. Much of this becomes habit driven I believe. You can help to break the habit for her.

Surfer.

[Surfer]

Woke_Up

From my perspective, it should never have got to this point.

Agreed. But don't beat yourself up. what ever you did she was going to be in a different room. My W tried to literally kick me out of bed. "Either you go sleep elsewhere or I will". I told her "I paid for this bed (bought it from my first house - "good Old Thrifty Surfer" (he he), if you want to be in separate rooms jog on." She even tried ripping the duvet off me to take it - needless to say, Surfer is pretty good on the old tug of war!! Again, "jog on". I'm not proud of this interaction, you will have had similar, but nothing you can do will change them when they are in this (my W was having an EA also). She stayed in the loft room with a nice en-suite for 2.5 years living like "The Mad Aunt in the Attic". The room resembled that of a teenage girl, dirty clothes and makeup all over. Bed rarely changed. When she finally went the cleaners would not touch it. It took me half a day to clean the en-suite!!!

So, do not fret over this. You are where you are and you are protecting your D by being there. However, you need to set boundaries. She needs to know what you will not tolerate and you need to stand up for yourself. All in good time though. First avoid conflict let things settle and read. I don't recommend boundaries until you fully understand them. V is brilliant at this and will help if you ask. The Verbally Abusive Relationship book will help you here.

Surfer.

[Surfer]

Woke_Up

However, a couple of occasions I accidentally woke her up and caused arguments, the latest time I exploded back, due to my emotions about EA (I'd been sitting awake a couple of hours). Then she was moving out (she had ordered another new double bed for herself to have in D's or spare room after first argument). But then I was guilted into moving out.

Been out since, apart from 2 nights when people stayed over and required spare bed.

Forget about the territory thing for now IMHO. It does not matter where you sleep. Ultimately yes, you need to set some boundaries and one will be you are moving back in. But for now, I suggest you steady you and the ship (the R) as much as possible.

Is she "fine" when people stay over. Even to you in front of them? Or is she fine with them and cold with you when alone or cold in front of them. TBH whichever answer, the result is the same. She is probably gaslighting you whilst spewing, history re-writing, spreading propaganda etc. I believe your wife, like mine, is (most likely) Verbally Abusing you. See Verbally Abusive Relationship book - suggest you look back at how much of it you underline (and do underline it, I know we are taught not to deface books etc; forget that just for now - you can even draw a picture of a c0ck and b@lls on the front page if it makes you laugh like an 11 year old). The sad part about this is verbal abuse like this is FOO stuff. She has grown up with it I imagine and that creates a very deep rooted habit - that is probably at her core (perhaps her Mum's too). She will find it almost impossible to change and it will worsen if she does not. You are going to have to become her pscho's observer for a while I am afraid. I know it's hard but you can and will do it for you and your D.

Final point. Your real goal has zero to do with her. It has to do with you. What would the old you be like if this 'alien' approached you for a relationship and you saw her for what she is (pre-kids?). you would walk. You are not walking, and that is very commendable. But you also should not crave her. Forget that. You must try to become the old you for you, D4 and SS16. No more eggshell walking or any of that.

Final final point. Has SS16 seen this before in a the previous R (with his Dad etc)?

There ends my comments. Couldn't sleep so I am going to get going with some work to make time for Xmas!!!!

Surfer.

[Woke_Up]

Final final point. Has SS16 seen this before in a the previous R (with his Dad etc)?

I'll answer this one first, and go with yes. Not that SS16 talks much about it, but WW has. Her R with SS16 dad was bad. Think they were together 7 or 8 yrs, always argued, dad is lazy etc, was always smoking weed, slacking off work, getting fired. When SS was born he was outside the hospital having a spliff. WW married him after about 6 or 6 yrs, at the behest of her mother even though she didn't want to, filed for divorce about 6 months later. During that time she had a PA for about 5yrs. She was young at the time, had SS16 around her 18th birthday.

I guess a thing to note is that she described her PA as her best friend who made her laugh, but he was 'obsessed' with her and just trying to get into her knickers.

Her previous R before me was also full of arguments and 2 way abuse, some physical, but she had thought it was the love of her life. When I met her, approx 12 months after that R ended, she was still having issues relating to it. I know the person she was with, so know that he is a juvenile idiot, but that is by the by.

With her current EA when arguing, she has often denied it is an affair, described her friendship and someone who understands her. The sex talk and love talk just 'throwing him a bone'... however recently she told me she loved him. Shortly after she asked if we could forget that conversation, she was very confused. (I had started talking about ending our R, selling house, working out the practicalities).

Most recently when she brought up the EAP, she was describing him as childish, and not having achieved anything with his life. (What could I do but agree with her). There are occasional gaps in the fog.

My biggest concern is that this EA may end, but she sees this as the only problem (when talking and I said we had lots of problems to work out, she replied "we have one problem")...

I don't want to fall back into the old R. I don't want to fall back into the old me. I want to work on a better me. A more decisive me, proactive and positive. I want to lose my bad habits that I know I have.

I would love it if WW would come along on this journey, but I know she is resistant to IC or MC. She believes she knows herself best, she can work out other people quickly, and that most IC/MC out there is quackery to get money from you.

I believe if she comes along, it will either be from my changes creating ways to stop the old cycle, or she may find some self help along the way. Whatever happens, I know that *I* can change in a positive way for my life and my D & SS.

[Woke_Up]

Quick update - a good night, no arguing or tension, good conversations, and just doing stuff around the house. W was affectionate. Could almost have been normality. She wants to keep the study a study and had said in text I could have 'her room'... didn't bite.

This evening she said we would be in MBR together, apart from the occasions when she is extra grumpy. I listened, didn't argue, went with it. Seems a step in the right direction, although cynical me wonders if this is just her retaining control.

That said, it didn't feel like it was a battle that needed to be fought yet. Observe, analyse, learn.

[Woke_Up]

Friday thought: there's fine line between trying to be a better person, / doing 180's and enabling cake eating by the WS.

[Surfer]

Woke_Up

This all looks positive. Zero expectations my friend.

there's fine line between trying to be a better person, / doing 180's and enabling cake eating by the WS.

There is but be careful with "cake eating". There's a fine line between not enabling boundary crossing (which need to be clearly defined for you and WS) and letting your 'ego' get in the way. There is no room for 'ego' in all this. It's a tread wary walk which we all fall foul of from time to time. After all, we are human!

Take care. I hope you are able to spend some quality time together over the festive period.

Surfer.

[Vanilla]

Keep on with your strong stance.

It's a great 180.

V

[Woke_Up]

Woke_Up

Is she "fine" when people stay over. Even to you in front of them? Or is she fine with them and cold with you when alone or cold in front of them.

This depends. If it is FOO she feels comfortable expressing her emotions in front of (i.e. they know what she's like) then it can be be any.

If it is 'guests' it is usually fine & cold in private or just fine, depending on the mood, and whether any existing arguments are ongoing.

When I was saying fine in the most recent instances, I meant that we got on OK, and there was no drama with me being in the MBR - I think the issue comes when she doesn't feel it is her decision. So when guests stay it is 'her decision' to let me back in MBR. No drama. When I try to stay in there myself, it is not her decision but mine being forced on her, so massive rage/spew

TBH whichever answer, the result is the same. She is probably gaslighting you whilst spewing, history re-writing, spreading propaganda etc. I believe your wife, like mine, is (most likely) Verbally Abusing you. See Verbally Abusive Relationship book - suggest you look back at how much of it you underline (and do underline it, I know we are taught not to deface books etc; forget that just for now - you can even draw a picture of a c0ck and b@lls on the front page if it makes you laugh like an 11 year old). The sad part about this is verbal abuse like this is FOO stuff. She has grown up with it I imagine and that creates a very deep rooted habit - that is probably at her core (perhaps her Mum's too). She will find it almost impossible to change and it will worsen if she does not. You are going to have to become her pscho's observer for a while I am afraid. I know it's hard but you can and will do it for you and your D.

Ha Ha, made me chuckle. Yes, writing on books will take some getting used to again, but then I guess it is a similar concept to handling vinyl when I started learning to DJ in my ripe old mid thirties. You never handle vinyl except by the edges.. never put your fingers on the surface! Until you do.

I have the book, just trying to get some free time to read it in peace. I have a few to get through now, with DR, Love Must be Tough, Torn Asunder (WW has this, although I think she has read some and now discarded as it is behind her mirror in MBR). I am currently reading 'How to Break Free of the Drama Triangle and Victim Consciousness' by B & J Weinhold. I'll feed back on it, but it has given me some insight already; I am coming at this with zero experience in the realm of relationships/interactions/psychology analysis.

I believe you may be right with the points involved in verbally abusive relationship. I am sure I have some negative traits that will be described therein, also - I now have a few days off until I am back at work, so will hopefully get some time to read, scribble, learn. In amongst my GAL online course and the usual family stuff.

Final point. Your real goal has zero to do with her. It has to do with you. What would the old you be like if this 'alien' approached you for a relationship and you saw her for what she is (pre-kids?). you would walk. You are not walking, and that is very commendable. But you also should not crave her. Forget that. You must try to become the old you for you, D4 and SS16. No more eggshell walking or any of that.

Thank you. I get it on an intellectual level, that it is about me, and embarking on a journey to be a better person, which may or may not have the additional benefit of building a better R - but the emotional is difficult at times. I have argued and fought with WW more than anyone else in my history, but also love her more than anyone before.

Good point about eggshell walking, recently it had turned into a really depressing thought to be going home, knowing about the EA that was ongoing. (and even prior, if I am honest, as there was quite a bit of conflict recently). Now that I know that there is little I can do about it, I go home with the intention of being positive, being there for the kids, and not being turned into an emotional mess by circumstances beyond my control. I have control of myself and my actions. I'm getting that now.

There's a way to go yet, I still haven't really dealt with how I feel about her contacting EAP from the house, but I have managed to back-burner it while focusing on more important things (i.e. not being shoved into spare room, not leaving house, listening well, talking more). She doesn't do it overtly, so if I don't snoop then I can never know for sure.. but I 'know'.

Thanks for your insight/advice

I hope you have the best Christmas possible with the kids, and enjoy. I'll keep up with your sitch.

Lets raise a glass and say cheers - to each other and to the future, whatever it may bring.