1. What are the differences between your mother and your xWH 2. Do you view all women the same way as you view this pair of women? Do you have any positive female role models? 3. Are these interactions different to those of your male friends? 4. What is your comfort zone and boundaries? 5. Do you have limiting beliefs?
Your thoughts
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Does your wife want to work torwards reconciliation?
I wonder if with the new relationships, it is easier to communicate because the past hurts and resentment aren't there. You mentioned new girlfriend was divorced once as well? I am sure she has learned and reflected upon (like myself) how not to communicate with a boyfriend/husband.
I wonder if with past relationships, we learn from our mistakes and are able to implement improvements with the new relationships. Kind of like starting out with a clean slate. Or if we just haven't had time to hurt each other yet. And if miscommunication, laziness, taking each other for granted is inevitable.?
1. xW sometimes shut down when she felt threatened, my mother never backs down. I assume xW shutting down is what made her feel "controlled."
2. As I mentioned in one of the previous posts, there are only 2 people in the world that I have these problems with. I seriously have minimal issues with conversations with others, I get along with everyone fairly well.
Otherwise, I quite admire females, more than I admire any males. The kind, gentle nature, the tendency toward empathy, the lack of aggression that the "typical" make displays. I am/try to be kind and gentle, and view women as more of a role model of my own actions than any man I have met.
As far as positive female role models... well, my mother isn't all bad, she does have some tendency toward kindness in the fairly large part of her life when she doesn't feel/pretend she is being attacked. My sister is decent, though I can identify plenty of unhealthy behaviors in her interactions also, but they don't affect me for the most part.
For both of reasons listed in the above 2 paragraphs, I have had way more female friends in my life than male friends. We get along well, we seem to think more similarly than any males. FF#1 (now GF), FF#2, FF#3, and a few others, were the best friends I ever had. I typically got along well with the mothers of the FF's (I did NOT get along with xMIL, she is an extremely judgmental, bitter, and negative person). GF and FF#2 have had plenty of kind things to say about me, to me... Many compliments for my calmness, empathy, openness, honesty, even my parenting methods.
3. There have been minimal male friends. One of my better friends since high school has some moodiness issues, and I learned to just back away until the bad mood passes, because he is great to be around when in a good mood. But I don't see him real often as he stays pretty busy. There have been a few coworkers that I got along with, but rarely very close friends, almost never did anything with them away from work. Quite a few coworkers have been helpful through this D/OFP process with similar stories of their own, "nice guys" who were dumped on when their x's left them. Back to the original question, are the interactions different? Between males and females (other than xW and my mother), the conversations are similar, but rarely as close.
4. Comfort zone and boundaries regarding who/what? I guess I haven't taken much time to "define" my boundaries. I know what I feel is an acceptable behavior and what is not, clearly, at the time of the interactions. I think I am fairly in tune with that. All of the accusations of xW, mostly what was put in the OFP, but even thinking about things xW said and did prior to the OFP, and since, compounded with the hurtful things my mother has said, has made me question my actions. I have learned many things, likely learned to "identify" better boundaries, and certainly it has helped me identify hurtful behaviors and the repercussions of them... But mostly I have learned to identify OTHER people's behavior as being unhealthy, and many of my own have been validated as "normal" by friends and family (beside my mother of course).
5. Limiting beliefs? Again somewhat answering the question with a question... Regarding who/what? I'll have to put more thought into that.
Does your wife want to work towards reconciliation?
Interesting question. No interest has been communicated, no hints, xW stated she wanted to move forward with discussing co-parenting only and not discuss the past. I am pretty confident the answer is no. I haven't asked. I don't know that I want to know. If certain triggers came up during counseling, I was planning to ask point blank. For example, if she asks anything about my happiness in R with GF, I would ask "why, are you hoping to try again?" She would likely say no, at which time I would then say "then why are you asking?" I think it would be a trigger for her to mentally drawn the line in her head... again... that she chose this path. If she said "yes".... oh boy, not sure what I'd say. I think I would say something that would pretty much guarantee we wouldn't have a future together... something crazy like "after everything you have done, how do you plan to fix it?"
The fact that I have GF is likely keeping that conversation at bay. And I still have NO clue if there is OM!
Originally Posted By: JujuB
I wonder if with the new relationships, it is easier to communicate because the past hurts and resentment aren't there.
I'm sure, but I also assume that is always the case with new R. Well, I am sure some people do carry their resentment into the next R, which would make it a very short R. I also assume that patterns will only repeat in the new R if the new person has a similar personality as the previous. xW and GF are nothing alike in personality, the biggest difference being an extremely positive outlook of GF, compared to xW being so negative that she can create negative out of positives.
Originally Posted By: JujuB
You mentioned new girlfriend was divorced once as well? I am sure she has learned and reflected upon (like myself) how not to communicate with a boyfriend/husband.
Yes, GF's D was 6 years ago, I graduated high school with both of them. Her xH is a compulsive cheater, cheated a few times while M'd to my GF, he M'd one of the new girls, argued and physically fought with his new W, then cheated on her, D'd again, has a new GF he met online and had move in with him within a week of meeting her, and proposed within the next week. He has prioritized his GF's over his own kids continuously since their D. My GF has had to be essentially the sole parent and role model, picking up the pieces when her xH would stand up the kids. It's pretty clear who the problem was in that R. GF says she did in fact bottle things up and make assumptions rather than ask, and probably was a door mat. Her next BF was worse. With me she says she finally feels free to share her thoughts openly. Plus I ask a LOT! Did she learn how to communicate better, and then met me? Or did her communication improve because she is finally with someone who actually cares to hear what she has to say?
Originally Posted By: JujuB
I wonder if with past relationships, we learn from our mistakes and are able to implement improvements with the new relationships. Kind of like starting out with a clean slate. Or if we just haven't had time to hurt each other yet. And if miscommunication, laziness, taking each other for granted is inevitable.?
xW went to see my IC shortly after BD... As my IC would say, IC "spit in xW's soup" a few times. One comment was "you can only be controlled if you allow it." Another quote IC said to xW "one problem with D, you are both going to grow, but someone else will benefit from his (mine) growth."
So yes, we have the choice to grow, to learn, to not make the same mistakes. Yes, we could end up with someone just like the ex, if we so choose. Yes, with time comes the possibility of building up resentment and being right back where you are, if we so choose. So, pick someone who has good solid morals and a positive outlook on life, treat them well, be 100% open and honest, and talk about things that bother you instead of bottling them up.... and if it doesn't work out, find someone else! Before committing your life to them. That's where I screwed up last time, I had only spent a few days with xW before we got M'd. Even in that time there were HUGE red flags going up all over the place, and I ignored them. I knew something wasn't right, my family, even distant relatives, urged me to not M her.
Moral of the story, there are an amazing number of rotten people out there. So, don't pick one of them! I chose to be with GF not because she has all the same interests, likes the same food, reads the same books, and other stupid superficial stuff like that. We discuss everything openly and honestly. We make each other feel safe sharing anything and everything. We both have been hurt before but we CHOOSE to open our heats to love again. We both want to better our lives, through hard work and dedication. We have common goals for ourselves and for our lives. We both have a thirst for knowledge and understanding. We don't get stuck with specific thought processes, but are open to new ideas. We don't have a "fantasy R" where we say we are "sole mates." We work together on projects, we work together on chores, we play together. We both are fully capable of functioning on our own, but we instead compliment each other's life.
Even with what I know today, even now experiencing how much better the R is with GF..... I did enjoy being with xW. If I could go back as far as I wanted and change things, I still say I would go back to the day we met, and NOT MEET. If I could go back just one year, just before the OFP, I would have still tried everything I could to try to improve the communication, and try to work it out with xW. I honestly believe a few simple statements and changes from me could have made all the difference in the world. Then again if I knew then what I know today... what xW is capable of doing when things go wrong, I would have been quite paranoid, and I would have still lost all respect for her.
Wow, that was a pointless rant on my part, LOL. Chock it up to "journaling" I guess.
Figured I'd put up an update in case anyone is following my story.
GF is living with me full time. Her D17 just turned 18. D18 has a decent personality, but suffers from victim mentality, is very entitled, and has displayed just short of a temper tantrum when she doesn't get her way. It bothers me a lot seeing it, realizing the similarities to how xW acted.
xW has OM living with her. Some irony there I will get into further down. I guess I can't say anything when I have GF living with me.
xW and I started coparenting counseling a few months ago, the OFP expired on it's own. We talk randomly and text a couple times a week regarding the children and the schedule. I sometimes pick up or return the kids to her new house. I guess you could call that progress.
I lost my job the end of October, within 2 days of the anniversary of her filing the OFP ironically. The place I work has been in bankruptcy for a while and finally closed, everyone who worked there lost their job. The founders are still working on trying to get new investors and reopen the place. I talked to the CEO and he says he has me high on the list to be called back for some exciting new projects that are right up my alley.
In the mean time I am getting unemployment, filling my days working on GF's house getting it ready to sell, except the days I have my kids.
xW was being greedy and asking for more child support and attorney fees and alimony, so we didn't have a deal on the divorce decree. That made it much easier to adjust the amount when I lost my job. I explained this to xW, she said "you should be happy about that." I replied "you should be pissed at your attorney!" So, we are about to go to court, my atty fired herself, and they were suddenly more willing to be reasonable. Child support has been settled, they dropped the attorney fees. But they won't drop alimony! I was going to bring her to court for contempt, for taking stuff she shouldn't have. I dropped it so we could discuss it at counseling. The counselor seems to be helping, but she still hasn't turned over much.
I am still working on trying to get more time with the kids, again discussing at counseling. No major progress, but I have gained a few days here and there, and I am diligent about always asking for more. Per the decree I have 5 out of 14 days.
The things she has said in counseling have been interesting. I have gone off on her a few times now, I walked out one day because I was so upset, but we continue to go. A few sessions ago, I blew up, said "you cheated on me," which she yells back "no I didn't", I said "you lied to get an OFP," she replied "we can go trough it if you want, I know what I wrote." I said "I know who I am, I know what I did, and I did NOT do what you wrote in that OFP." She said "then why did you write that letter saying you understood why I left?" I said, "I thought you were having some issues, things that YOU needed to straighten out. But notice that I did NOT address any of the issues you brought up in the OFP.""
In another session I asked her "why an OFP?" She explained that she learned a lot in a couple days (meaning from the women's advocates group she went to see.) I told her my counselor used to work for them, and quit because she didn't agree with the things they do. My counselor told me a story about a woman who the advocates tried talking into accusing her husband of rape." So xW's counselor steps in and says "so you are saying she was fed a bunch of propaganda and she bought into it." I replied "yep."
It is very interesting to see xW going through all the motions that the typical spoiled brat does. When put on the spot, there are typical steps to go through.... start with defensiveness (instead of collaborating), when that doesn't work switch to changing the subject (but you did this..., or whatabout this....). In one session when she changed the subject, I started to address the new thing she brought up, and she replied "why are you changing the subject?" I replied "you did, I am just addressing your concern." So, a few tries at that, which always fail, move on to sarcasm. And the last step, which I haven't pushed her far enough to show her counselor real clearly yet, is utter childishness. She literally will revert to sticking her tongue out and making faces and mimicking!
In summary, I have witnessed this behavior enough in my life. My mom deals with things in a similar way, so I have been doing pretty well at just avoiding such subjects with her. xW is there at counseling ready to spring her childish methods, and it has been a good test for me to remain calm.... which I have always done, which just ticks her off more. But now GF's D18 acting that exact same way, while living in my house, has added a stressor that I don't really want to deal with. It's not my kids to deal with, but it is impacting me in a few ways... listening to her D18 scream at her "but why" over and over while GF remains calm. And her D18's lack of respect has trickled into her use of my stuff.
I haven't read all your thread, and I mean no disrespect, but I'm confused that you are in a serious relationship with a GF who is living with you, while you still seem to be DBing your XW and possibly open to a reconciliation. Does the GF know this?
Or have you absolutely cut off any hope of reconciliation, and are simply using DB principles to manage her special brand of crazy?
There is no hope for a future with xW. I "think" she cheated, which in itself is unforgivable, though she still denies it. She covered it up by filing an order for protection. She lied in the OFP, to the point of accusing me of rape (which couldn't be further from the truth). She was greedy in mediation, insisting on getting everything that has anything to do with the kids, and it was held over my head that if I didn't agree I would have to pay her atty fees to fight it in court. I got the house, but on the way out she took a lot of stuff she shouldn't have, in case that she hadn't don enough yet. She had been telling my kids for years prior that I am mean to them, and in the OFP nhad only supervised visitation. I managed to get that squashed pretty quick.
This psycho I call xW has the full blown victim mentality, and needs guidance forced on her to do the right thing, whether it is a Guardian ad Litem, an atty or a judge. She couldn't even understand the OFP rules and kept claiming I was violating it.... not to the point of going to court, just enough to keep herself worked up. She continued badmouthing me to the kids for a while, someone must have told her to stop. Her mother continued for a while until I threatened to file an OFP against her. It's a hell of a mess.
I took the high road through this whole thing, tried to be fair, gave her a little more than I thought was fair even. I continue to take the high road, to try to do what is best for the kids. My techniques are an attempt to keep things civil. Deep down I'd love to witness her die a slow miserable death. I'd love to have my kids full time.
GF is the one I wish M'd in the first place. We have known each other since 3rd grade. We were great friends in elementary and partially into high school. She is an amazing person, and she tells me every single day how amazed she is with me. GF loves all the things that intimidated xW. For example, xW was intimidated by my intelligence, GF loves that I understand the things she talks about or is passionate about. I am an extremely affectionate person, but for 21 years xW pulled away, right from day 1. GF soaks it up and can't get enough. GF tells me all the time how amazed she is with my parenting methods, and wishes her kids had me as a father figure growing up, xW thought the kids weren't safe with me.
I think I may have a hidden agenda going on too..... I want xW to realize what she gave up, how great she had it, I want her to want it back.... so that I then have the power. Not to use against her, but to make me feel like I actually have some control over my life, like I actually have a choice. Sounds like a pipe dream, but I keep that in the back of my head.
Deep down I'd love to witness her die a slow miserable death.
My brother said something similar about his X. Would you really want that to happen to the mother of your children? Anger can consume.
Originally Posted By: OFP
I want xW to realize what she gave up, how great she had it, I want her to want it back.... so that I then have the power.
That's ego talking. Yes, there is butt-hurt from being rejected, but does she need to realize anything for things to be good in your life? And what power do you want? I would suggest your really examine these feelings.
Originally Posted By: OFP
Not to use against her, but to make me feel like I actually have some control over my life, like I actually have a choice.
I'm confused by this. What control and choice do you not have? You just stated you have a GF you wished you'd married instead of XW. You seem to express how wonderful everything is with GF, so why does XW matter at all? Is this more ego or is this your desire to have control over your XW?
I apologize if these seem like harsh and critical comments and questions. I think these are items and issues most LBSs have to address after D (yes, I was guilty of similar things) to be truly happy and be ready for another relationship.
I too share your consuming anger yet desire for spouses validation, so will be reading on about some good points deckard is bringing up.
Just brainstorming here...I feel very wronged and traumatized by the way in which ex left me. Being villified was really really damaging to me. I think because the lack of rational discussion left me feeling powerless. (Someone insisting that something white is actually blac). You were issued an order of protection. That's the ultimate vilification.
Is this anger and mixed feelings a form of some sort of post traumatic stress? I'm quite curious too.
P.S. I'm glad your finding happiness with gf. And I hope you come to terms with your feeling regarding ex wife.
