Help - boundaries. Am I doing th ewrong thing?

[Surfer]

Woke_Up

If you check my latest post on my thread you will see how I take control of the spew. It's harder to do face to face when the kids are around.

It might help.

Surfer.

[Woke_Up]

Wake_Up

Be careful with this:

it's good to know that I'm not alone, that others have been through very similar things, and have come out the other side.

None of us really get out of the other side unless we fully reconcile (past piecing).

I think I meant what you posted next - not that everything ends up rosy in the garden, but that you get through it a stronger and hopefully a better person, whatever the final outcome of the R.

Remember - keep calm, cool and no R talk/OM talk from you etc.

Doing my best. Last night was reasonably calm. I got home from work, and she was stressed out with illness and D, who was whingy & tired. Other than a couple of not so pleasant comments from her to start with (started criticising me for the way I was attempting to distract D from whining and get her settled), it was OK. I looked after D, got her ready for bed, read to her, and let the W escape downstairs to relax, take painkillers, do whatever she needed to.

Later we just talked downstairs a bit, mostly about if she should change her hair colour; the only possible source of conflict was her phone (she wants a new one as current one is playing up, but I said fine if she had the funds, but not to ask me to get involved with enabling her comms). Fortunately it didn't get out of hand, although she did say 'well I need it to be in touch with you as well' or words to that effect.

She even had me rub her back at one point, and said I was good at calming her.

Went to bed separately as usual, at a reasonable hour, but she still messaged me to check on D (who was in her room) when D was restless and making noise. I've pretty much done the night time duties, so it's not a problem, I always thought of it as 'my time' with D.

[Woke_Up]

Actually, to correct myself. You do get out 'the other side' ( you deal with it) but everything is NOT the same. However, you don't want what it was. You want it what it could be.

Surfer.

That's what I was meaning. If I come out of it a better, more proactive and positive person, and the best dad I can be, that's a goal to strive for. At this stage I don't know whether the R will survive, but if it does it will need to be different. I have said as much to W in text messages when we have been communicating that way.

I also know I need to GAL more, I lost all my hobbies pretty much since D was born, especially since I started working so far away from home, now with a 3 hour commute each way. Then again, part of my GAL is studying (online) for a new qualification which should enable more job opportunities closer to home. That would help in a lot of areas.

[Woke_Up]

Woke_Up

If you check my latest post on my thread you will see how I take control of the spew. It's harder to do face to face when the kids are around.

It might help.

Surfer.

Thanks Surfer. I have read your most recent, and am now reading through your entire latest thread. I have not got back to your original thread yet.

Yes, face to face is hardest, and it usually happens face to face, often in front of kids. This has been a pattern throughout our R.

There are a lot of factors at play here and I will try and go into more historical detail a bit later. Suffice to say for now, she was raised in a very conflict driven and abusive household and I was raised in a conflict free household. To her, conflict is the norm, and to me it is the opposite and therefore I became very conflict averse, not knowing how to deal with it. Throughout my life, I see now, not just this R.

I have also read up on the drama triangle and ordered a couple of books from Amazon to help me. I think I am often rescuer and victim and W is often victim and persecutor. I am trying to work out how I can recognise these situations and break out of them.

Thanks again. I will update soon.

[Woke_Up]

Okay. Read your sitch. I am ready for the update. I imagine it will be more of the same. Some quieter some more crazy. Are you seeing a pattern in her normal, stress, crazy type behaviours?

Have you noticed what triggers the changes?

Surfer

I will need to pay attention.
So far, triggers are hormonal - always throughout our R, she suffers from bad PMS, which displays as anger, aggression, conflict, verbal abuse.

During pregnancy it was x10 and we nearly split at one point. However this is now all my fault for not being understanding to her during pregnancy. I know I made mistakes, but bloody hell, it was a no win sitch at times.

Other triggers include tiredness, lack of sleep, illness - she takes meds for anxiety and depression, which triggered in Jan 2016. The cause for anxiety was triggered by external events, but also due to different opinions on some elements led to distance and conflict between us, which led her to find like minded people on social media, which led her unintentionally into EA (I paraphrase her words). She has accused me of driving her to it, although she acknowledges this is not entirely true usually. Yes, my issues are part of the problem with our R, I have accepted, acknowledged, validated that.

Last night it was a bad day that triggered a mini spew - whiny D, illness and anxiety that day. Initially it was thank god you're back, I need help, but soon it was criticism of voice I was using with daughter - why are you using a baby voice too, speak to her like an adult, etc. All this in front of D. ( I had been trying to distract D with her toys, funny voices etc, to break her out of her whinge, you know how kids are). I did react mildly, initially, but did get W to go downstairs once D was ready for bed so she could relax. I could then read story, get D to sleep.

I also suspect that what is going on in her EA can impact her and cause her to spew, although this is conjecture on my part, and as I am working on not snooping, I will not know this. I have seen what I would classify as classic manipulation on the part of the EAP - professions of undying love, I know you would never hurt me, loving you is like breathing, etc etc. I also learned about limerance at this point, and gained a better understanding of what is happening to WW and why I cannot do anything to break her out of it.

Certainly an addictive element to some behaviours. Rage, make up, repeat. I also definitely saw that when I blocked her Skype connection and she was going through withdrawal from being able to contact EAP.

When upset, her go to response is conflict.

I need to detach and observe more. One thing that was pointed out a few years ago, when I was doing the task oriented thinking training, was that I tend to miss things, by not attentively listening, as my mind is racing ahead and trying to think of responses 2 or 3 moves in the future. By doing this I miss the importance of what is being said in the now and the other person assumes I am not taking them seriously or listening at all.

I am trying to focus on attentive listening & validation.

[Woke_Up]

Thank you surfer

Please let us know how you are Woke Up.

V

I'm doing OK, thanks V. Really appreciating all of the help, advice, and pointers to helpful resources. I have blips and react. We seem to be out of the overt aggression / weaponised words at the moment, now that I am not pressuring the MBR issue.

Quick reflection: Putting myself in her shoes, it has been her room for many months, as I moved to look after D who kept getting up in the night, a couple of months into the new house. This was as much for my selfish reasons, as I found it less disturbing to settle her when in the same room. Since then we have pretty much slept in different rooms. My clothes were always in the spare room, she had the MBR for her clothes. The en-suite bathroom was the 'girls' the main bathroom was the 'boys'. OK, from my view, she has pretty much selfishly taken over the house as her own, and dictated what each room is for, however, I see that she feels I am invading her space by going back in to the MBR.

From my perspective, it should never have got to this point. The house shouldn't have been seen as hers to do with what she wanted to, I shouldn't have stayed in D's room so long and then transferred to spare room, next to D's room. (Actually WW transferred me by tidying up the D's room, so I moved from mattress on floor to crappy single bed in spare room, so still close to D when she woke).

I was in this when I found out about EA. It was awful. I went through the whole little/no sleep cycle at this time, which when you get up at 5am for work each day, doesn't help.

When D wanted to move back into W's room (she was in the feeling scared/monsters phase), I attempted to move straight back in there (my reason for not being in there was gone). She resisted, this caused arguments. I then said OK, and gave her a day on which I would move back in. On that day I moved D's cot bed in there and moved back in, and was accused of forcing my way in there, but managed to go in and stay there. She ordered a new bed. This ended up in S's room, after a few arguments, including me threatening to take it outside and chop it up. My bad.

However, a couple of occasions I accidentally woke her up and caused arguments, the latest time I exploded back, due to my emotions about EA (I'd been sitting awake a couple of hours). Then she was moving out (she had ordered another new double bed for herself to have in D's or spare room after first argument). But then I was guilted into moving out.

Been out since, apart from 2 nights when people stayed over and required spare bed.

I want to claim my own space in then house though, which is why I think I shall have the study downstairs.

I'm just trying to figure out where I fit in this cycle of emotions, as I am sure I am reinforcing behaviours. Starting on a long journey of self discovery and healing - hoping that WW will come along too, even if unintentionally.

Anyway, that turned into a ramble, just free flowing my thoughts at the minute while sitting on the train home.

Thanks again

[Surfer]

Okay. Read up on all this....apart from last 2 posts, I need more time for these.

Not sure I would give her a back rub. In my view she is temp checking and maki g sure you are still on the hook. Personally, I would have said, "Sorry. I don't feel like it."

Magnesium supplements and others can help with PMS. If she recognises the problem she should be active in preventing it. She may have had years of sprewing at you and others thinking this is just what you do because you ha e a period. To me that's horsesh!t. I am sure PMS is horrible. However, that's no excuse. I know al sorts of people with real chronic pain and they don't beat up on others. No, there's no excuse. If she uses that as an excuse next time, set a boundary. Tell her you hear that she is sorry but she had bad PMS but......other with chronic etc....so no that's not acceptable. Go get help, there are supplements the doctor can prescribe to prevent this. Tell her you won't tolerate it again and [insert an appropriate consequence - it needs to be related; i.e. Speak to me like that again and I will cut off a communication source for a week IDK V is better at this. Not set many boundaries yet.

I will revert when I have read your last 2 posts in detail.

Surfer.

[Surfer]

Woke_Up

I won't comment further on PMS etc. I have done this to death!

However, I have read the rest and my views FWIW are:

she takes meds for anxiety and depression, which triggered in Jan 2016

What triggered this - there is usually a life changing event. Or do you think there was something lurking in the background? What is your gut feel if you are not sure?

Surfer.

[Surfer]

To clarify, RE: Depression and anxiety.

Specifically - what were the "external events" and what are "your issues"? you need to be really honest on your issues BTW. Were you opinionated, putting her opinions aside, perhaps working too hard or drinking too much? This is all pretty standard fare. Some smoke weed or become hooked on anti-depressants.

Surfer.

[Surfer]

RE: Tiredness.

Spot her trigger times. If its tiredness or struggling to cope, it will (most likely) be the case that she has a hair trigger first thing in the morning and last thing at night. IMO, avoid all comms in the morning. Just get the routine done. this way you make sure the kids are protected.

IDK if you W works? Does she/you what are your jobs. Are they stressful? Rather than pursue her during the day, you could let her know (just once clearly, at the appropriate time) that you know anxiety is hard to deal with and whilst you don't fully understand how she feels she can call you at work if things feel on top of her. I am in two minds about this as she might just use this to spew. But my experience is that there are certain times in the day when an anxious and angry WW will be very much able to talk. My W was good just after leaving work. Seemed to have that teenage happiness of leaving school for the day... (perhaps thats telling!).

I would be functional at home until the kids are in bed and get your exercise in for 20 mins then (or in the morning - you may need both at times). Make it CV - run, swim or light CV and weights IMHO. This will fortify you.

Evenings are the trickiest. I would avoid her totally personally if possible and certainly until the kids are in bed and fast asleep. Particularly D4. You do not want her hearing any shouting at all or SS16. It frightens small children. They can recover but it does scar them. You must be the adult here where your W is not. If W comes to talk in the evening, she will start of in Victim mode most likely. you will go Rescuer and she will push you into Victim and them turn Persecutor (Drama Triangle). You need to spot such patterns in conversation, and exit them. It's the only way out. You can't win at this game. If she spews listen to the point it may become audible for the kids and say something like "I am listening to you, but you are starting to shout. I don't think its a good idea to frighten the kids and I am sure you don't want that too. Let's leave this for now." if she continues. Just say "Stop". I can't help you tonight. If you can talk calmly, "I will listen (and I am), but when you escalate like this, it's no good for them, you or me". "I am happy to listen tomorrow if you want to talk." Repeat until fade. Please note, this may not work at all in the way you think it will. You W may rage against not being able to rage. She may feel more isolated - IDK, mine did. But I know it protected my kids and set boundaries in terms of my own self respect. I would do it again. You need to make up your mind though. Move, 180, test etc. Give it a go.

Surfer.