Newby here, desperate for some advice (thread 6)

[Jug]

I also have thought those things and struggle with them. I'm sure most of us feel fear, sadness, anger, and all kinds of other emotions; we are depressed. I've mentioned in threads that I've been using cognitive behavior therapy and meditation to help with dealing with these thoughts. It's not magic but it can help. The idea is to not ignore or bury them but to acknowledge them but not let them consume you. The serenity prayer is similar and should be a mantra. Easy to understand but hard to truly believe. All of these are related to detachment and that's what will ultimately help us make it. Hang in there.

[JRuss]

Your counselor has never told you why you allow your W to control how you feel and act?

With all due respect, that's not really how therapy works. At least not good IC.

Man your W owns you, body & soul.

If you say so. You may be right. But you might also benefit from an exercise in empathy. Really try to understand the in-house separation dynamic -- with children -- from the LBS's perspective, where the spouse is not the WW you were but is instead just sort of "done", but still right there, still at times moving closer (albeit running away soon thereafter), at times talking about a future, and others just really "done". But not really doing much to move the ball along. It's as far from anything you've ever experienced that I think this would be a hard but worthwhile exercise for you and might temper some of the harsher phrasing you use here as you try to help people. I have been very upfront in terms of how difficult I have found detachment to be. This is not to say that your standard advice to LBSs of "manning up" and reclaiming our status as the respected head of household doesn't have merit and isn't the end goal many of us are striving for, but it might help you to really try to understand why progress can be so slow and uneven, and our efforts can be prone to mistakes.

I find it difficult to understand how a woman can treat a man the way she has acted with you........and he desire her so much. That doesn't make sense. It sounds as if you don't believe you deserve anything better.

Everyone here deserves better. Your husband deserved better. The question everyone has to answer is how long each of us tries to build a new relationship with their partner -- with the goal of having and building better (not returning to the status quo) -- and how they go about doing it. It goes at various speeds for people. People make mistakes and suffer setbacks in their efforts. Again and again, depending on the person, their living situation and a whole host of other variables. Your marriage was saved because you realized you'd behaved like a monster, felt true guilt, and your husband was willing to take you back when many would not have done so. Do you really think he ever stopped desiring you and wanting things to work out, though? No. Had he, you could have said you were sorry a million times and it would not have mattered. He did things to facilitate you coming to the place -- self disgust and real remorse -- you came to. Those things he did are are hard. Very hard. You saw what he did, but you don't have any idea how hard it is. You can't, at least not until/if your husband leaves you one day, and it comes as a complete surprise to you, and you decide you don't want your marriage to end without a fight. I don't know if your husband suffers from any sort of depression or anxiety, but it further complicates things as you try to implement all of the various self-help, behavioral changes and all of the rest. And then there are the kids. Most of us, myself included, would throw themselves in front of a bus if they had to in order to save them; living in a terrible relationship -- especially if there's still any hope you can improve it -- doesn't seem like nearly so much as that, so we persist, in many cases long past the point where there's any real chance of changing the marriage, because it's better for the kids that way.

Was this scenario what you watched with your parents?

No. My parents were high school sweethearts who've been in love with each other since they were 16 years old.

Perhaps only a therapist can help you with why you struggle with these issues, and how to get control over your own thoughts.

Again, this shows a lack of understanding about the nature of IC and the nature of thoughts. The struggle, yes, my IC can and does help me with that. Thoughts can't be controlled, though. Try it right now. Try to think for any amount of time only those thoughts you intend to think and make yourself not think anything that isn't 100% intended. I guarantee you cannot do it. No one can. Not even the Buddha! You may not have the sort of toxic, fearful, sad, anxious or painful thoughts in that time frame that LBSs and/or those with anxiety/depression tend to be bombarded with, but you won't be in charge of the output, whatever that output ends up being. What we do with our thoughts, techniques that can be used to help us when they are painful -- many of us have to spend a large amount of time learning and then applying those techniques (IC can help here). But whatever thoughts our minds create? No. We are not in control of those any more than we are in control of what enzyme our pancreas is secreting at any given moment.

[JRuss]

lt/Gump -- I do have fear, but I don't think that it is the missing piece, and that if I can only "get in touch with it", I'll be in a fundamentally different place. That said, I've been pushing it down and not giving it any room to be experienced, and that's never a recipe for beneficial growth. So I'm going to try to explore it, understand it -- whatever it is we do as we become aware of painful things and try to learn to live with them until they lose power over our emotions and feelings.

[JRuss]

darkness -- as I said to Sandi, we aren't in control of our thoughts. That's just wrong, albeit wrongly believed by many. We can work on techniques for recognizing thoughts, even interrupting them, with an achievable goal of trying to not let our thoughts drive our emotions, but the mind's output isn't something we can control for any meaningful amount of time. I have devoted 2+ years to learning how to "manage" what I can manage, but part of that is learning, and then accepting, that we can't control the thoughts we have; only our reaction to them.

Re your last point, that's the next goal: trying to understand why I'm afraid to "let go".

[JRuss]

I also have thought those things and struggle with them. I'm sure most of us feel fear, sadness, anger, and all kinds of other emotions; we are depressed. I've mentioned in threads that I've been using cognitive behavior therapy and meditation to help with dealing with these thoughts. It's not magic but it can help. The idea is to not ignore or bury them but to acknowledge them but not let them consume you. The serenity prayer is similar and should be a mantra. Easy to understand but hard to truly believe. All of these are related to detachment and that's what will ultimately help us make it. Hang in there.

Jug -- I'm right there with you in terms of IC and meditation -- 2+ years, and both have helped me immensely in terms of my symptoms and managing them when they flare (as the do), but as you note, it's not a magic cure-all. The in-home but separate aspect of my sitch adds to the healing time, as it is hard to get to acceptance when there are so many moment-by-moment things that happen that prop up the hope/denial reflex.

[ForGump]

Just a quick note: I take a position somewhat between you and Sandi2. I don't think of it as purely mind-over-matter. You can simply and directly control what you think. On the other hand, I think you can steer the general direction of your thoughts through counseling, meditation (and I'm not talking just about some Eastern religious type of meditation), and by setting up your situation to encourage/discourage certain trains of thoughts. The image of a leaf blower blowing a yard full of leaves comes to mind. You can blow them in one direction and many eventually go that way, but you can't control individual leaves.

Anyway, my impression of you, JR, is that you've done hell of a lot of self improvement but your emotional character is just such that your heart strings are always pulled when your W is present. Probably not a whole lot you can do about that -- that's just how your built. More importantly, it sounds to me that no matter what you did, your W is going on her own journey. You could be <fill in some paragon of macho male figure>, and she's going to need to leave you -- that's because what she wants isn't real. It's in her head. So nothing you can do in real life will change what she wants in her fantasized life.

[JRuss]

My W is repulsed by <paragon of macho male figure > types and would be long gone at this point had I gone that direction, which is another reason I tend to recoil from the one-size-fits all nature of a lot of the (well meaning) posts here.

Interesting imagery with the leaves. I agree to an extent. GALing, especially, can set the stage for a lower volume of distressing thoughts. Just tiring yourself out via physical energy can control the raw output, I've found. The topic, though? No luck controlling that so far, and I haven't stumbled upon any remedy or cure, just techniques for dealing when the thoughts do come.

You're probably right about the heartstrings comment,and I'm sure you're right about the "on her own journey" one. Put another way, I'm screwed .

[DonH]

I don't think I've posted to you before. I'm 10+ years post D and all the rest of this. I'm no expert. I know how hard all this is, how much it sux, how depressing it can be. That said you are coming up on two years now, but reject what some solid DB individuals suggest. You seem to know better. They are wrong, are mean and lack compassion. My. Question is, if you are correct, why are you in the place you are in with your marriage off in the ditch? I don't need to come to Sandi's defense as she is more than capable. I just continue to see you and others reject what you are being told in large part because your feelings are being hurt and you are angry. Honestly I have to strongly wonder how much depression is driving where you are at - both now and how you got here with W.

One of the clear principles from MWD is stop doing what is not working. Are you? I see you rejecting what is said with all sorts of excuses. Is that working for you? You are told to stop your thoughts. Yes, to a 100% degree that is very difficult. But you can alter them to a large percent. There are dozens of books on how. But you are so busy saying it can't be done. Again how is that working for you?

I don't at all want to make it worse for you but unless you break this woe is me, my life is terrible and over mentality you will never make progress. Are you addressing the depression? Is it working? If not I really think that has to happen first as fighting for your M AND fighting depression is a huge undertaking.

Most here beg for Sandi to help them. You are so busy fighting her, you aren't even trying to understand what she is saying. She and others are not the enemy. We all want you to be happy with or without W. I really feel for you. I really do but. You've got to change course here. I can only hope you will receive what I'm saying as intended - that is to help you, not hurt you.

[MoveFrwd]

darkness -- as I said to Sandi, we aren't in control of our thoughts. That's just wrong, albeit wrongly believed by many. We can work on techniques for recognizing thoughts, even interrupting them, with an achievable goal of trying to not let our thoughts drive our emotions, but the mind's output isn't something we can control for any meaningful amount of time. I have devoted 2+ years to learning how to "manage" what I can manage, but part of that is learning, and then accepting, that we can't control the thoughts we have; only our reaction to them.

If you reread my post, I didnt say you should control your thoughts...I said you need to learnt o "manage" them. I agree you cant control what randomly pops into your head. That said, there are plenty of ways to deal with those thoughts without letting them cause you to spiral downward. To me, you sound like a poker player that goes on tilt after losing one hand. As Don wrote, letting these kinds of things run rampant through your brain will weigh you down and create that 'woe is me' vibe. So, how can you learn to manage these thoughts better?

[Dawgs]

So, how can you learn to manage these thoughts better?

I like that, darkness. Even though my divorce has been final for a while now, I still struggle with that. Managing thoughts is very, very hard to do. I don't think about the ex intentionally, but having kids and being forced to deal with her every day, its especially tough.

Thoughts have a nasty way of invading my space late at night. I do believe that I can count every little texture change in the ceiling above me bed.