Honeypot...this is the natural reaction to the situation. When someone in the R actually does change, the other person is forced to react. Now, we would all like to think they'll be overjoyed, but instead they feel some initial anger.
This is EXACTLY how my WAW behaved since my HD came back. Instead of being happy she was angry and hurt. Now....I think with PATIENCE Dave can carry on.
My WAW is still angry/hurt/pissed and I honestly don't think that will change until she acknowledges her role.
"The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step." – Lao Tzu
Quote: That is a very specific definition of what you EXPECT from her, and if that expectation is not fulfilled, then the entire situation is a bust -- you are allowing her no room or freedom to be her.
If being unaffectionate and unsexual is the "Real" her, then the "real" her is unacceptable. An unaffectionate and unsexual women, I would not wish that on my worst enemy. I want my original wife back, she was fun to be with. My current wife has absolutely nothing to offer relationship wise that is of any value to me. The only thing that keeps me here is the kids.
What is success, when I feel "Desired". That's it, something VERY SIMPLE!
Posting foul!! 2 minute penalty. You took what I said out of context. Please understand that I hear you, but I think you missed what I was driving at.
Quote: There will not be a succesful solution for us until my wife is able to be affectionate or sensual to me WITHOUT any assistance on my part.
That is what you originally said. The -- WITHOUT any assistance on my part -- is what bothered me, and what it was that I responded to.
Quote: That is a very specific definition of what you EXPECT from her, and if that expectation is not fulfilled, then the entire situation is a bust -- you are allowing her no room or freedom to be her. And let's be honest, I'm sure if you thought there was anything you could do to 'help' her be more affectionate or sensual with you, you'd be all over it in 2 seconds flat.
So what you are saying is:
1. She must be who she used to be 2. She must desire you 3. She must desire you without any assistance (effort?) on your part
Is that what you are saying? (I'm asking to make sure I understand you clearly).
I just think that when you bring two people together, stick them in a house, give them kids to attend, jobs, etc., someone is going to change, and in order for the machine to keep working, it will take effort on the part of both parties. I would never, ever tell you that I think your wife is trying -- at least based on the things you have said -- the whole point to my response is, if she is willing to FIX this and really try to find/express her desire, she may need your help -- that may require some effort on your part.
If you EXPECT her to follow 1-3 above, I think you are setting yourself up for failure... you want to go back to what you used to be, instead of moving forward to see what you can create TOGETHER with who you are now. No one can go back.
Regarding my contribution- Since we've been working on the R, I've been completely "engaged" in the R and family. W says that I'm being a superstar H these days and absolutely loves her "new husband".
Regarding how I contributed to the demise - It's irrelevant and off limits to conversations that my W and I have. We have both claimed responsibility and agree that we both engaged in behaviors that polarized us.
The C session was scheduled before the big kama sutra surprise on a day I was feeling crappy. I told my W yesterday (before the session), that it was all about me working through some things I've wanted to change in my behavior for years, regain my motivation in certain areas and to cope with my dying dad. When I got back, I was noticeably "jiggety" again but I was able to (truthfully) blow it off due to a headache and the fact that I wasn't certain if I thought I liked this C.
Now, regarding Sunday night. I really wanted to avoid being negative and sharing what really happened but my W did some things that made our "alone time" barely tolerable. When she bought the gift last week, she committed to playing with it Sun night. We watched the Sopranos which we always do and at 10 (thanks to spring forward she wasn't tired), I said alright, "let's go up". She said, "do you think we can watch some of this new show Deadwood? I hear it's good". WTF?!!! This was so wrong on so many levels.... 1. She was essentially saying that she didn't care about "our time". 2. The one time a year when she would have any energy after 10pm, she wants to waste it on a show. 3. She was auditioning another series when we should be trying to find some quiet time together.
Listen, I've let go of my "polarizing" behaviors...she hasn't tried to change a single one of hers. The TV thing is a BIG one. Sure, she's making *some* efforts but I keep seeing a strong resistance to the idea of being closer to me. Read on.
So, when I got to the bedroom and was able to use the bathroom (she locks the door...even just to brush her teeth), I brushed mine and cleaned up a little bit. She was under the covers with her "frumpy" nightgown on, light off, head on the pillow and in "sleep" mode (if that makes sense). I asked "I thought we were going to have time together". Her response..."oh yah...get the stuff out and I'll give you a back rub". I'm not kidding about this. That's how the session started. I "heated" the session up and got it to become sexual but there was absolutely 0 enthusiasm from my W. Actually, there was "avoidance" and a hope that I would "forget". She's just acting really weird these days...she saying one thing but acting the oposite way. She says I'm a super-hubby now, she commits to "times", but then freaks right when we get together.
Honey, this is not an isolated incident. She did something almost identical to this a couple weeks ago where she looked at the clock, pulled back the covers, pushed me down on the bed and started to try to "service me". She played it off as a role play of "being aggressive". She doesn't understand that my desire would be for her to "aggressively want me to ML to her"...not aggressively "service me". Big difference between the 2.
I want to confront her about this "bedroom" behavior. I also want to bring up the whole TV thing. I'm always too scared to rock the boat because I love having a peaceful house (alarm, alarm...stinkin' thinkin' alert). Assertiveness is a skill that the C can help me with. Who knows.
She's simply not being honest with me about *something*...it's obvious. And this makes me think that the issue is much deeper than it appears.
Anyway, i think the best thing I can do is to get myself back into a semi-emotionally-divorced state of mind but continue the good behaviors. This will allow me to wait for her to change some things without me getting these "jiggety" feelings. Don't take this idea as "harsh", it's not. It's just that my current vigilance is excessive and I need to temper it so I'm not going nuts over all these little things. That might actually solve alot of this. I just wish she would tell me.
"Suspension of Disbelief"...that's going to be the title of my next journal here because that's both of our biggest problem. We both sweep the R flaws under the rug and have been able to pretend that the house is clean.
I've got to stop. This is making me depressed.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: 1. She must be who she used to be 2. She must desire you 3. She must desire you without any assistance (effort?) on your part
1) No she does not have to be what she once was. I only refer to what once was, only because that is the part of the marriage that was actually good for me. The current state of the marriage sucks. I am open to any change that is better in the future, maybe even better then the OLD marriage?
2) Must she desire me? Well, again, my only reference point for when my marriage was good was when she had desire. Is this a requirement, no. But how often does a women acually solve this SSM problem with out SOME form of desire returning. 3) No assistance from me. Not completely accurate. Sure, I need to make me a desirable guy to her. Yes I need to meet her needs. That would be assistance. Will I initiate most of the time, yes. But relationships have to be two-way streets. Currently, 100% of all physical touching of ANY kind comes from me. This is absolutly wrong. I need her to initiate some of the physical touch, but less then 50% of the time. Unfortunately, to get serious love bank deposits, she must be the initiator. And this applies to all sex AND affection.
From what I have discussed, it is obvious that desire has a MAJOR impact on the chances for success. Solutions to marital problems require something that requires as little effort as possible so that BOTH spouses can meet the needs of the other CHEERFULLY. WIthout desire, the taks just gets about 100x harder.
I'm agreeing with CeMar on some of his points. Most of the touching in my M is initiated by me. My W often lays there like a lump while I hug her, or kiss her. It's not fun. When she does take the intiative and touch me, I have to be careful and not react in kind because she will immediately withdraw, and often will accuse me of taking and innocent touch and trying to taking it to the next level. Sigh.
Quote: Anyway, i think the best thing I can do is to get myself back into a semi-emotionally-divorced state of mind but continue the good behaviors. This will allow me to wait for her to change some things without me getting these "jiggety" feelings. Don't take this idea as "harsh", it's not. It's just that my current vigilance is excessive and I need to temper it so I'm not going nuts over all these little things. That might actually solve alot of this. I just wish she would tell me.
Wow, AD...wow wow WOW. Your W and my H sound a lot a like (right down to the "let's find a new TV show to get addicted to so we can avoid spending quality time with the spouse"). As someone who has chosen the "emotional divorce" route with H, I can say that it only works for a little while, but eventually those pent-up feelings of frustration and hostility come out in ways you wouldn't expect. You'll find yourself NOT wanting to be super-hubby anymore when you're not getting much in return, and you'll do little things to sabotage the relationship - all to avoid what is REALLY on your mind.
Of course, the advantage of the emotional divorce is you have no expectations of change from your spouse. Maybe, if you are able to keep up the ED long enough, you eventually start to feel like that is a normal state of being. In my case, I started the ED process a few years ago and was snapped back into reality by H's bawling "I want us to be more intimate" revelation 11 days ago. The sh*tty part is that, with much help from this board I might add, I decided to come out of my ED state and give the marriage a chance to be real again, and I feel I'm getting kicked in the nads for it. (Even though I don't even have nads!)
So if you do choose the ED route beware that there are times she might come out of her shell a little, but I would recommend against being foolish enough to completely let yourself back out of YOUR shell because chances are she'll just pop right back into hers. I'm starting to think H had his "revelation" only as a test to see if I still really loved him. Now that he is satisfied the "real" me was hiding in there somewhere, he's back to denial mode and still reading his stupid-ass car magazines and PROMISES to get to the changing-himself (and read SSM book) mode as soon as he is finished with the latest issue.
All this while he says this issue is a PRIORITY for him. Ha!
Rant rant rant. Could I be any more pissy today??? And please nobody tell me to be patient. Sh*t, I've been patient for YEARS. When is it going to be MY turn to be the real me again? I'm wondering if that can ever really happen with H. The proof is in the pudding, and his pudding is TV shows and car magazines.
It's REALLY hard to believe so many similarities. I even identify about the ED. That's been my state for YEARS (too many to count). I really wish they had a "crying" graemlin here, although I suspect it would see ENTIRELY too much use.
I really believe at this point the "going dark" of ED is totally useless, unless you just want this to go on and on and on and on and... That's why I'm making the efforts I am. That's why I've said to W, in so many words, "This is the last time. If I find myself back in that desert, I'm taking the first available off-ramp."
Dave, I hear you about the conflict-avoidance thing... just know that all it does is drag this thing out longer. W and I are EXACTLY where we were 5 years ago, even 10 years ago. It doesn't make anything better. I no longer even believe that my kids have benefitted in any real way... I think all I've taught them in the meantime is how to have a sh!tty marriage...
Hey Tim...Even though this situation totally sucks sometimes, it's still nice to know there are people here who understand.
- Heavyheart, who tossed her H's latest car magazine in the garbage today but later realized it was a stupid PA move on her part so went out and retrieved it (and who is still trying to figure out how to explain to him why his magazine now smells like poopy diaper).
