I have recently talked with the wife. We dicussed our problems with the marriage, but very little about sex. I am more interested in working towards a "Great Marriage" which would have to include great sex. I specifically asked her if we could work together to build a great marriage. Unfortunately her answer was she did not know. However, we still continued to have a very heartfelt, bonding type conversation for quite a long time, and that made me feel better. I am taking her out to dinner here in a few days for our 16th anniversery, and I will continue my discuassions with her about finding more areas that we can address together. It is baby steps, but it is something. My big concern that keeps nagging me is that can a person that has no desire for sex or affection, can they actually be a sexy and affectionate person. There will not be a succesful solution for us until my wife is able to be affectionate or sensual to me WITHOUT any assistance on my part. I no longer want to BEG for affection or sex. It must come from her and be HEARTFELT. And it is EASY to determine if it is heartfelt versus mechanical. I don't want to spend months or years working to change my realtionship and then find out it is not possible to change a ND woman.
I know you've read many (if not all) of my posts, so you know I understand your POV re: desire and love. However, I'm wondering about your approach to the problem, and your definition of what success would look like. I do, however, see several hopeful signs in your sitch. First, you say that sex was great for the first four years, until the kids came along. From your descriptions, it seems like at that time, it was not only the quality that was great, but also the quantity and frequency. That, right there, puts you MILES ahead of my sitch. For me, once we got married, the frequency and quantity seemed to dwindle off right away. The quality was still there, however (meaning that when we DID ml, we both generally had a great time). However, I do recall that increasingly it seemed to be rather a chore for her to attain arousal. Quite often, we'd start, and she would request a back-rub, or a tummy-rub, which seemed to me very artificial, and detracted (for me) from the loving nature of the sex. That was BEFORE the kids came. BJ's were ALWAYS completely out of the question for her. I remember at least one time when she DID give me one, but she first had to wash it (with soap!), and she obviously didn't enjoy it, so I didn't "press the point" (sorry for the bad pun!).
Anyway, it sounds like your R was way better sexually in the beginning than mine was. Of course, for BOTH of us, things did eventually turn sour, and stayed that way for a VERY long time. Now, your main question or issue seems to be "When do I get my W back?" You're focussed on having things get back to "the way they were", and you're VERY clear that in your mind, if she does not initiate, and give you unasked-for BJ's, and otherwise mind-blowing sex, she doesn't love you. I hear you! You know I do. However, a great deal is different now than in the beginning. You have young kids (sorry, I can't remember how many, but your oldest must be around 12). That in itself changes quite a bit. Privacy is much more difficult to come by, and spontenaety almost impossible. There are now, by definition, a LOT of other things on her mind (and yours), such that even having an intimate and loving conversation over a dinner out is very difficult (try NOT talking about the kids for a whole hour, let alone a whole evening). So perhaps "Can things be the way they were in the beginning" is not the right question.
For me, the BIG question is: "Can things be better than they are right now?" Again, for me, there's hardly any way to go but up! I've been down so long, it LOOKS like up. Cliche, I know, but true. And I, like you, equate sex with love, but maybe in a different way. I do agree that if the ONLY sex we ever had came across as "pity sex", and she just could NOT get aroused, and I could NOT satisfy her, then I would NOT see much point in continuing the M. I would conclude she just didn't love me. However, if we are able to reach a point where she can ACCEPT my advances more often than not, and reach arousal with me, and I'm able to satisfy her, then it wouldn't really matter to me WHO initiates most often. I would not equate her lack of initiation as a sign of lack of desire, nor would it indicate to me a lack of love, as long as I was able to initiate successfully fairly often. "Fairly often" in my definition at this point would be > 1/week on average. Note that for a VERY long time, for us it's been < 8/YEAR on average. So maybe I'm just coming from the standpoint of the starving man in the desert, for whom ANY improvement is a gift. I don't know.
Another thing... has she read SSM? Sorry, I can't remember. I assume she has for the moment... what was her reaction to that? She sounds like a perfect "just do it" candidate, like her arousal cycle is more <initiation><doing><arousal> instead of <thinking><arousal><initiation><doing>. Our cycles are more like the second. She may need the ACT now to BECOME aroused. IMHO, that does NOT signal a lack of love, just a different approach required. I know in my case, I have definitely often though that W would be happy never to ML again. She never came right out and SAID it, and maybe that's the difference, but she didn't have to - the evidence has been VERY clear on that point. HOWEVER, it may be just that she doesn't THINK about it. Certainly W has not been willing to be OPEN to the possibility for a long time, and has not been responsive to my advances, and this has been (and, I expect, will continue to be) a BIG problem for us, but I'm hopeful we can get past that if we're both motivated to work on it. She now knows that the alternative is to lose me. For me, I think it will be enough if she can be open to accept my advances and respond to me when I try to initiate, as well as adopting a more open-minded attitude to different kinds of sex. Could I still be kidding myself? Possibly. But I do think it sounds to me like YOU have a lot more to work with in this department than I do. However, I do know that if I defined success as reaching a point where W would be HOT for me (i.e. experience arousal prior to initiation) then my M would probably be doomed, because she may never become like that. Am I making any sense here? Or am I just confused? Dunno...
F'ing fantastic!! I am so impressed with you and the positive mental attitude coming from I could almost fall over.
You seem to me to be a very analytical type of person, always thinking, always processing, always looking... and that's okay. But in the process of 'moving forward,' don't forget to enjoy where you are.
I hope you can take some of Tim's advice to heart -- try not to define success too narrowly... I'm not saying what you want it narrow, I'm saying, try to leave yourself open to experience success in whatever form it comes... otherwise, you may be setting yourself up for failure.
No one can answer the question about your wife's desire. I certainly understand that you don't want to beg for anything, and I don't blame you. But this sentence:
Quote: There will not be a succesful solution for us until my wife is able to be affectionate or sensual to me WITHOUT any assistance on my part.
that one kinda scares me. That is a very specific definition of what you EXPECT from her, and if that expectation is not fulfilled, then the entire situation is a bust -- you are allowing her no room or freedom to be her. And let's be honest, I'm sure if you thought there was anything you could do to 'help' her be more affectionate or sensual with you, you'd be all over it in 2 seconds flat.
I think what you might be saying, and correct me if I am wrong, is that what you want more than anything from her is a reason to hope, you'd like to see some genuine effort on her part, and if you can get it, you'd like a written guarantee that if/when she gets cured, that she stays cured.
I understand that a great marriage includes great sex, but right now, you are the only one defining what 'great sex' is. I'm glad you are clear on what you want, but give the definition some room for what she might want, too. Otherwise, any effort she might make toward that end is going to be lost on you, and she is going to need you to be supportive rather than critical of her efforts. See?
Who are we kidding? Our spouses need to feel some serious pressure before they commit to change. My C even made this point to me today that I've been too "easy going"....hence my anger issues etc. Motivation doesn't happen magically. Why are *WE* taking the "hits" to the relationship. Why are *WE* so pathetic that we have to suck up to them and their approval, then hang on every single gesture that they make?
I think one of the most interesting things about us (ssm forum people) is that we are looking to improve the sex because we need the sex. So we avoid putting pressure on the spouse to "really" overhaul the relationship because of fear of no sex...OR they give us just enough to make us loose our motivation to address the really hard things that need to be fixed.
Sorry...I'm just ranting right now.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
You have some issues. Your W has some issues. There are plenty of issues to go around. But there is no reason to be 'angry.' You are in the midst of a lot of blame here, and blame isn't going to get you anywhere.
Look at where you are. Look at where you want to go. You've got a 'plan,' so just add a few parts patience into the mix and get yourself back into your groove.
Your situation is not hopeless, you are not helpless... you have regurgitated issues today that have understandably upset you, but keep things in perspective. It's fine to have emotions, it's fine to recognize them, but that does not mean they have to move in, take over, and poison your mind, your day or your attitude.
When I was talking to the counselor today and talking about some of the issues with my W, I never indicated any of my emotions or expressed the fact that I was in fact "angry". She completely blew me away when she responded with "....and that's why you are feeling so much anger". I thought "what? I never said I was angry....how did you know that?"
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Once again, Dave, watch that C! Don't let her put words in your mouth, and DON'T let her ambush and blame your W. You'll regret that if she does. You are feeling very vulnerable right now, and if the C is backing your side, you'll very understandably feel very validated, even vindicated. GO SLOW! Realize that a LOT of C's have their own agenda, and their own issues, which they can transfer over onto the patient(s) with great ease.
No, I am NOT anti-C, W and I have been through 2 C's in the past 3 years. The first one, both W and I agreed was no good. He was just plain useless. The second one, I liked very much, and thought she was doing some really useful stuff with us, but W didn't feel she (W) "got enough sympathy" from her. Mind you, there were NO blame-games in those sessions. We saw her for over 6 months, but in the end we were no further ahead. My impression was W wasn't really cooperating in the therapy. W goes to a new C this Thursday... it'll be interesting to see what happens...
Thanks to this board, I went there with my radar on. This will be an interesting experiment because I WILL pay very close attention to the dynamics between the 3 of us. I have known all along that my W needs to be "challenged" by somebody. She is a notorious "chicken" when it comes to anything difficult. I hope this C can draw her in enough to eventually draw her out...but maybe they will gang up on me which will be fine too because I truly want to change and nothing inspires change like the double-barreled estrogen gun.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Dave, I'm confused. You had a great day with your wife and she surprised you with the Kama Sutra stuff. Then the very next day, you are struggling with anger. What gives?
Are you saying that the counseling session brought up some hairy issues that you are struggling to deal with? If so, then that is legitimate but I would really not let on to the W that you are feeling this way. You BOTH have issues to work through and I'm sure you would be very upset if you had AOS'd your ass off, only to have her go to counseling the next day and come home and be pissed off at you for things from years past. Let her have her Kama Sutra victory. She deserves it. She needs to feel your praise and thankfulness and appreciation for her efforts or, quite frankly, she will stop.
Realize that your marriage is sick and the counselor brought that out into the light. This is not NEW news to you, you already knew that.
Like the others, I would be VERY suspicious of a counselor who immediately went to town on my H (who wasn't there) and didn't call me on my sucky behaviors. However, I am a notoriously honest person and I would have been extremely upfront with her from the start, in terms of what I do to contribute to the situation.
Which brings me to my final question: What do you think YOU do to contribute to how things have deteriorated?
I hope it doesn't seem like I am picking on you but you have GOT to stop thinking about your wife and how she should change this and that, and start thinking about yourself and what you intend to do in that arena. Your wife does need to change but no amount of vigilance and hyper-watchfulness on your part will accomplish that.
In conclusion, Dude your situation is lookin' up!!!!!! You blew us all away with the Kama Sutra stuff (if you think my H would ever go for something like that, you're nutz). You have a lot of good things going on in your situation and we are all so happy for you.
