The phantom cyclist - journey leg 2

[Mach1]

Ginger - I don't mean to sound dismissive and I'm not wanting to be but please how could I possibly know?.

How could you know ??

Mainly because several people here, including myself, have given you insight on how you present to other people.

And it is far more important to you, to be correct, than it is for you to actively listen to them..

That, is how you would know....

Trust me, I have indeed given this a lot of thought. I've also asked friends and mutual acquaintances. Maybe I could get you and your D to move in with me for a few months and point out my flaws? It's a big house, lots of room for everyone. I believe you have horses? They could go out to my youngest brother's farm which is not far away.

I don't want to end up like my W seemed to be after BD1 when I begged and pleaded with her to tell me "why" she felt she had no choice but to leave, scraping the bottom of the barrel to find reasons, looking for any possible imperfection or flaw and trying to polish it bright.
Before you ask - here were her reasons for wanting to leave:
- She didn't want us to end up like her parents bickering in a nursing home
- she may be like her father but as a couple we're nothing like them and we've never fought / bickered / nagged at each other. We did have some arguments in our early years but they were always civil because they were being held in front of the kids - they in hindsight were probably rather funny to watch

Why do you think that she felt that she didn't want to argue with you ??

Maybe because of some of the same reasons that you present here ?

That it is more important to be right, than to listen ?

When I read your posts, typically the ones that you reply to others...

I get the sense that you are trying to talk your way out of something...

Were you like that with her ?

- I would sometimes talk down to her especially after a few beer
- Yes, I'm a bit of a pompous ass but never intentionally - working on that bit and the beer is cut back to practically nothing

You just did the same to Ginger...

How many beers have you had today to cause that ?

- Sometimes when I complimented her it sounded insincere
- Yes, I'll agree with this - I was trying to help her feel good about herself. Perhaps misguided but I "never" would say anything that wasn't positive and always tried to find positive things to say to / about her. It did require a stretch on rare occasions.

Why do YOU think that it sounded insincere ?

- I put her on a pedestal and she was uncomfortable with it
- I adored her, of course she was on a pedestal but I was very aware of her flaws. I just never complained about them because they didn't matter enough to me. You accept the whole person when you marry them.

Did she want to be on a pedestal ?

Living up to those high expectations surely was exhausting for her...

I know you and Rose and others are wanting to help me be all that I can be and I do appreciate it. Dashing around and making changes and trying to fix things that may not be broken isn't a good use of my energy which I need to spend healing.

I think that you protest too much, and are looking for something major to fly your flag over.

Andrew, you have a really good grasp of DBing. However, I can assure you that you don't have it perfected. None of us do.


And to reiterate what you have already said, IF you think that you are perfect, and don't need to take a look into anything, then you are being pretty pompous in your view of DBing.

Most of us that have ended up here, are typically pretty good people, with a strong moral code.

Most need to look inward and self reflect, and become self aware of how they present...

None of are typically bad people, who are out to hurt others on a regular basis. Most of us just needed to tweak some stuff, and make adjustments to help us make better decisions, and to become better partners for OUR future...

Where are you really in that process ?

I do indeed want to be ready for when my W comes home, if she ever does (having lots of doubts about that recently). But in my mind, a big part of the way I need to be ready is not by being a wonderful manly man with wide-ranging interests and a buff body (it is looking pretty darned good these days though). No - I feel that what I need to be is a man who is confident, strong and compassionate who is able to be the shore that she can rest on after her own much more difficult journey so that we can both heal together.

Don't overthink this...

There is a fine line between arrogance and confidence...

There is a fine line between compassion and condescending...


Being ready, is what side of those lines that you are on....

[ericmsant2]

Andrew

Ginger - I really have no clue then what it is you and Rose are trying to tell me. Honest Injun.

I hate to take your time but I appreciate the fact that you seem to care deeply about what it is that you want me to understand but that I am obviously failing to understand.

I’ll give this a try and see if I can shed some light on what Ginger and others are trying to illustrate.

Hmm, I've been watching on the sidelines here but...whenever a lot of countering and justification is going on...that's a good time to sit back and have a good think about where you are at...

First…shout out to Sotto who pointed out what I had seen in your post.

Here is another clue to what we are trying to say to you…

From Rose - What I find interesting about this list is that it is still told from your point of view. It is not reflective of an attempt to see things from your wife's perspective.

And I believe Rose is a women…here is a women perspective….

There's definitely a "take me or leave me" quality to the list, rather than the impression of a spouse who is trying to understand the marriage from the other person's perspective.

Andrew – Consider that “tone” is very hard to determine when someone is writing. Lacking is the physical cues and mannerism that I believe are critical to communication. That said….

Post from PINN - You mention the few things your wife actually complained about during your marriage. Have you taken the time to really think about the things that were problems that she never mentioned?

I believe it is a statistical fact that women communicate VERY differently then men. What it appears that PINN is trying to say is that maybe YOUR W did not know how to communicate to YOU in a manner that you could have understood. I believe what PINN is saying is to step back and try and think about how you communicated with your W and how SHE may have felt. What you might see (and hey maybe you will not)…is that she did not feel safe or did not believe you would “understand her”.

Let me try and articulate what I see…..

Post BD when she was scraping for reasons she was leaving she did mention that she thought I would talk down to her from time to time after having too much to drink. And yes - from time to time I can certainly be a bit of a pompous @ss. I try not to be but it does slip out occasionally, even here

“scraping for reasons” – How does really sound to you? Think about….it is imo a bit dismissive. It is almost like in your opinion she did not have a reason. Based on where YOU find yourself – I think she did.

“she thought I would talk down to her” – IMO, replace “thought” with “felt”. Her statement appears to be how she felt. On one hand you acknowledged it; however, you then blame “beer” for this. That is NOT taking responsibility. That is not taking time out to really think about this statement. In part…because maybe deep down inside you do not feel it is relevant. At least that is how it comes across when you respond (this could be a “tone” issue).

“I can certainly be a bit of a pompous arse” – You acknowledge this – yet I do not see it changing. How you respond to other posters, the quickness that you respond to people that post on your thread leads me to think….how much thought is Andrew really giving these point. I think not much. Why? Cause I think you really feel that you are for the most part fine. And hey like I said before that is okay.

Her other main "complaint" was that I thought too much of her and had her on a pedestal and she was uncomfortable with that (this was before I knew about the A).

I read this and my ex actually said the same thing to me. What I came to realize is that really she meant the exact opposite. Think about it….on one hand you talk down to her on the other you put her on a pedestal. I suspect what she was trying to say and maybe did not know how to….was IF you indeed put her on a pedestal, why do you talk down to her.

Every sitch on here is different, yet at the same time there are a lot of similarities. In my case, I came to finally realized that what my ex was saying was TRUE. I did talk down to her. When I realized this I had to ask myself WHY. The answer is what brought about change in ME – and I think that is what others are trying to get you to see.

Heck - I'm not even all I could be nor am I back to the AndrewP that I was perhaps 2 years ago who was a pretty great guy with buckets of self-confidence.

Look at this statement…..is “self-confidence” more important that understanding…than compassion? I am not saying that this is what you are saying I am saying that the “emphasis” on “self-confidence” is something that I believe is an indicator on what you feel/believe about your W. Add to that….that you assume that she liked the Andrew of 2 years ago. Maybe she didn’t. Honestly it does not matter. IF you liked that Andrew, then go for it. I believe though that deeper thought and honesty within yourself might (notice I didn’t say will) give you a different answer.

I'm here mainly because I want my W to come home and know that for her to come home successfully that I need to be ready for her.

Simple question….if she knock on the door today and said she wanted to come back home – what would you say/do?

She also didn't like that I would follow my own path and do things such as wearing bow ties that she didn't approve of.

I am all for being true to yourself – standing your ground as it relates to bow ties – is/was that the mountain that you wanted to die on? Can you see how she may have interpreted your position?

She didn't like how I would get wrapped up in new interests and dive into them and learn everything there was to know about them and want to share that passion with her (she was quite tolerant of it).

Have you rephrased this in…..”women speak” – have you considered that she was trying to say something else. I am not asking to mind read what she was thinking…rather…look at it from HER perspective…if the roles were reversed how would YOU feel if she did the same? Is that what you would want in your partner (maybe you do and if so, nothing is wrong with that – just that maybe she wanted different)?

Notice how you said “quite tolerant of it” – think about it…if you were dismissive, a bit of a pompous arse….what could she say to you to change it. Maybe she just “deal with it” until she could not. Once again, I am NOT saying to change YOU…that is unless…you wanted to be more understanding, more open, less dismissive.

She didn't like that I disapproved of smoking pot. I would never tell her what she could or could not do but I think she felt constrained by knowing that I would disapprove.

Funny – totally okay for you and bow ties – not okay for her and pot. I am not condoning the use of pot, nor and I saying you were wrong – what I am pointing out is…..that I do not believe you viewed her as YOUR EQUAL – chances are….she felt it too.

On the other hand there's a lot to like about AndrewP. He's reliable, loyal, caring and trusting. He loves deeply and passionately and can overlook flaws

“overlook flaws” – Ya know it is funny…..words that people use. I’ve said to others that some of what DB teaches is around communication. I want you to consider which one “sounds” better.


I “overlook people flaws”


Or

I accept people the way they are.


Which one sounds better and WHY?

At the end of the day Andrew…you need to like who you are. If you do….then do nothing…if you do not…then please take more than 5 mins to read this and respond.

[AndrewP]

Mach1 - thanks for taking the time to post. Crap - I'm soon going to be on another thread the way this is going. This seems to be going around in circles with people saying "look here" but I just can't see what they're pointing at and they can't describe it to me in a way that I can understand. It must be important because so many good people are spending time and effort to point it out to me but I'm just not getting it.

Ginger - I don't mean to sound dismissive and I'm not wanting to be but please how could I possibly know?.

How could you know ??

Mainly because several people here, including myself, have given you insight on how you present to other people.

And it is far more important to you, to be correct, than it is for you to actively listen to them..

That, is how you would know....

Mach1 - I give up on this. I've tried listening but I'm just not hearing. I've tried asking questions but am not understanding the answers.



Why do you think that she felt that she didn't want to argue with you ??
No clue. I never argued with her, she never argued with me.

I get the sense that you are trying to talk your way out of something...
Nope - I'm trying to understand. I present the facts as I understand them and then get what appear to be platitudes and vague generalizations in response. Sorry - but that's how it looks at this side of the screen. Even in your last post I'm not reading anything substantive or actionable other than Well - we've already told you what to do. I do recognize that I have a personality that is not good at reading other people - a known fact which I've accepted and one that W has known for our entire time together. I do know that I lack "emotional intelligence" and work very hard at compensating but it is in fact just compensating and not a true skill.

You just did the same to Ginger...
How many beers have you had today to cause that ?
Now that's just mean. I'm just trying to understand. When I don't understand something I explain what I "do" understand and ask for clarification.


Why do YOU think that it sounded insincere ?
Because there were indeed times that I had to look hard for something positive to say when she looked like she was feeling down and I wanted to cheer her up.

Living up to those high expectations surely was exhausting for her...
Undoubtedly - she never commented on it before though. She would say that she was a better person for having known me instead. And by high expectations it was only on a moral basis. I never expected her to be "June Cleaver" and she certainly wasn't and neither was I Ward (dating myself here).

And to reiterate what you have already said, IF you think that you are perfect, and don't need to take a look into anything, then you are being pretty pompous in your view of DBing.
I'm the first one in line to say that I'm not perfect. It is however possible I believe to be happy with yourself despite knowing that you aren't perfect.

Where are you really in that process ?
Opinions seem to differ on that

Being ready, is what side of those lines that you are on....
I think I'm pretty much ready for W to come back. I still have a lot of healing to do though.

[ericmsant2]

Machs post – 35 minutes and 5 secs

Andrew response – 3 mins and 42 secs ago

Andrew – how much time I really taking to digest what people are saying? Cause based on your last response…it took all of but 31 mins. 31 mins to read, process and respond.

You say you are trying – IMO, 31 mins…is NOT trying.

[Mach1]

- I would sometimes talk down to her especially after a few beer
- Yes, I'm a bit of a pompous ass but never intentionally - working on that bit and the beer is cut back to practically nothing

You just did the same to Ginger...

How many beers have you had today to cause that ?

Now that's just mean. I'm just trying to understand. When I don't understand something I explain what I "do" understand and ask for clarification.

No, not really...

The "but" in the "but never intentionally" gave you an excuse to do it whenever you felt like it...

YOUR excuse was the beer...

Fair question there....


What it also did, was for you to ALLOW yourself to sidestep the question, and put the blame on something other than yourself...

You want it explained ?

There it is....

[AndrewP]

eric - Yes - I'm just reacting and not necessarily thinking. I'm also finding this dialogue quite stressful because I know that people are trying to say something important to me that I'm not getting. I'm the sort of person who has a need to understand and I'm not. I've also spent my entire lunch hour plus extra time that I'll need to make up some hovering over this thread reacting and responding.

One of the big challenges with a forum like this, just like with email is it is so very hard to have a true dialog. We can't pick up the context and emotion resulting in mis-understandings and confusion (at least on my part). We end up writing long novels (at least I do) that perhaps go off into tangents and explorations that distract from the original issues and questions.

I do want to thank everyone who has taken the time to post. I do feel that we are all (including me) spending far too much time right now taking individual statements apart and dissecting them word by word. Those dissections appear to have created their own Frankenstein monster out of the assorted bits and pieces that have been snipped out and then re-assembled.

I know that you all mean well and I do in fact appreciate it more than you can know. This place has been a literal life-saver for me. I feel badly that so many good people are honestly trying to help me and are believing that I'm resistant. I'm not. I welcome other perspectives even when I don't agree with them. It may not seem like it, but yes, I do. My rapid responses are in fact because I continue to be hungry for answers. I've learned that for many things that there are in fact no answers and in the case of this dialogue - no answers that I seem to be able to understand. Rest assured though eric that I will in fact go back and re-read these pages multiple times over the next few days. I'm not sure I'll get anything more out of them though.

Just to go back what appears to be a few pages on this before we started on the operating table.
- Yes, I'm working on me but I'm pretty happy with the me that I am.
- I have no clue as to what my W was unhappy with and I've searched hard inside myself for answers. Yes there were a number of what are to me minor things that may or may not have been minor to her. Without being able to ask her ourselves we can't know what she thought. Mind-reading is not a skill that any of us have.
- I like to believe that I am at least close to being ready for W to come home. I also believe that I may still have a long wait for that but could be wrong. I sincerely hope that I am.

Simple question….if she knock on the door today and said she wanted to come back home – what would you say/do?

After a strong hug I would say "Welcome home. Let's be a family again."

[Drew]

Intimacy.

[Ginger1]

You are hungry for answers, but the answers are really in our posts. Take a breather. Read our posts a few times. Don't REACT! Take the needed time to understand what we are trying to say to you.

Every hear the saying "listen to understand, not to respond?"

A scenario to marinate on:

I have told you my ex left me right after I gave birth to our daughter (after going through IVF) for his A partner. The A began in my pregnancy (found this out about 2 years post bomb). I mean really, how can a man actually justify doing that? I didn't think I did anything wrong that deserved that. As time went on, I spent some time here, I still stand by me not deserving that or doing anything WRONG. He was absolutely, completely in the wrong. When I told people he was leaving me they all said the same thing "what? I thought you would be the one to leave him!" (he treated me poorly, everyone saw it. But that doesn't mean that there was nothing to learn or change. Through this journey, I learned a lot of different ways how I could handle situations, relationship conflicts, communication, and so forth. Did any one thing I did cause him to do what he did? No. But I did do growing and learning every step of the way.

Right now, I am not "fixing" myself. I like me. But if a learning opportunity comes up and I see how I could handle myself better, Hey, I will take it!

[Mach1]

So lets change this up a bit....

You ask me a straight up question, and I will do my best to answer you....

Ask me to explain what part that you aren't getting ...

One question at a time...

[Drew]

Intimacy.

Maybe bluntness is a better approach:

You were giving her what YOU thought she needed.

Now she's getting what SHE needs from someone else.