WHs do come back--Piecing--acceptance & time

[BluWave]

Great nuggets. Thank you. And thank you for sharing your experience.

To take it a step further, we can also explore people with various levels of introspection as it relates to depression and anxiety. Those of us more prone to them may have a harder time coping with the crisis that happens during separation and D. I can see now that my struggling during my Hs A had a lot to do with my depression, anxiety, and ruminating thoughts. It was very difficult for me to "snap out of it," and I would feel stuck and hopeless.

I tend to think that those with very high or very low levels of introspection are more likely to have depression and anxiety.

If you are very aware of your feelings and how they relate to emotions, you are more likely to overthink, and thus ruminate, which leads to a negative cycle. However, if you are aware of this, you can also empower yourself to thought-stop and create new patterns, or meditate, etc. When my emotions were triggered, and my feelings were self defeating, I would get myself in a circle of negative thinking and could not "pull out of it." It was incredibly painful and I felt hopeless.

On the flip side, those that are unaware of how their emotions relate to feelings, may not realize that they have these tools to make changes. However, they might be more likely to accept their reality and overall feel less extreme misery. There is something comforting about not being able to make a change and dismissing the overall responsibility.

Is ignorance really bliss? Perhaps those people also feel less joy.

Clearly, I am not an expert and have not done my homework. Just journaling my thoughts :-) ... Now SH can chime in with the real information. lol.

-Blu

[SH_]

C-nut,
Thank you for the feedback and I am glad you found the info helpful. I continue my research and study as there is much on the topic and there are some variations. The tiny bit that I have shared resonated with me and has helped me and my D18 much in our struggles and challenges with the emotions and feelings.
Hopefully you will take up my challenge to do a little research on this topic and chime in as well. You are one of my DB neighbors that I have followed since you moved in here, but have not had much I could share with you. I do believe that this topic may benefit you as you are working on yourself of late.....

Blu,

So you bring up some interesting points that I have thought on today and will share mine.
I then want to share a bit more of what I have read...

To take it a step further, we can also explore people with various levels of introspection as it relates to depression and anxiety. Those of us more prone to them may have a harder time coping with the crisis that happens during separation and D. I can see now that my struggling during my Hs A had a lot to do with my depression, anxiety, and ruminating thoughts. It was very difficult for me to "snap out of it," and I would feel stuck and hopeless.

I tend to think that those with very high or very low levels of introspection are more likely to have depression and anxiety.

Blu, I believe I understand the point you are making here and it makes sense on the surface.
So here is the catch.
In the psychology world Introspection and rumination are the polar opposites...
Introspection is the the review of oneself in a positive light and then move forward...
Rumination is the review of oneself in a negative fashion and to do so continuously....

So in essence, introspection is a healthy understanding of ones emotions and can lead to good habits and feelings.
Rumination is the act that actually focus on the bad and goes over it time and time again which leads to the depression and poor habits.

Now I know also that there is the biological element of bad chemicals in the body that are attributed to depression and that there are those that are more prone to depression, so that is a separate factor all together.
Well, you know me, that was not good enough for me to know....
So further research has been studies and my hypothesis based on what I have read is that....
While there are chemical factors that some have that tend to lead to a higher chance of depression, so this holds true with being overweight....
But in both cases, good habits can and do overcome the chemical/genetic factors.....

Up until recently it was believed that the brain was done forming at age 25 and you were who you were at that time no matter what.
Science has recently changed this thought.
By age 25 your habits are mostly hardwired by age 25, but, the brain can be wired with good habits.
Just like physical traits.
Heck, they say that men start losing muscle mass at age 40, but I am in the best shape of my life and have more muscle on me now than when I was 25...

Okay, so I got to slow the hot air here now.....

So point...
Depression and anxiety can be attributed to chemical happenings in the body and poor habits created over a lifetime in reaction to emotions.

If you are very aware of your feelings and how they relate to emotions, you are more likely to overthink, and thus ruminate, which leads to a negative cycle. However, if you are aware of this, you can also empower yourself to thought-stop and create new patterns, or meditate, etc. When my emotions were triggered, and my feelings were self defeating, I would get myself in a circle of negative thinking and could not "pull out of it." It was incredibly painful and I felt hopeless.

On the flip side, those that are unaware of how their emotions relate to feelings, may not realize that they have these tools to make changes. However, they might be more likely to accept their reality and overall feel less extreme misery. There is something comforting about not being able to make a change and dismissing the overall responsibility.

For me, reading and trying meditation was the education that I needed.
It has worked for me and for d18. Both of us fighting our unique battles with "depression" and anxiety.
I think women may have more challenges as it relates to the chemical balance in all of this. D18 and I work with the same principles with meditation, but her challenges differ from mine and she has to use different practices than I, but we get to the same calm and awareness of ourselves.

I was unaware of my emotions. My W called me out for being depressed throughout the marriage. It was due to my lack of emotional expressions and inability to say what I was feeling. I did not believe tat I was depressed.
After being nagged, I tended to blow up. Not out of anger, but frustration and desperation because I could not adequately express myself. She saw it as anger and danger.

After the BD, I was completely aware of my emotions.
I worked to convince my IC that I was depressed.
He did not bite, bless his soul, and continued to work with me on my behaviors and responses.
Took me over a month to get him to tell me, maybe I was depressed, but that I would need to get a diagnosis from a psychiatrist.... I was then afraid that it was true and focused on changing my behaviors....I was not depressed....I just did not know how to handle these anxiety attacks which were new to me and the overall feeling down.

So IMHO, depression is a tricky thing and may be called out far to often, and even the clinically depressed folks that recover, do so through treatment to include meds and CBT.
Cognitive BEHAVIOR therapy.
Interesting right?

Is ignorance really bliss? Perhaps those people also feel less joy.

I used to think so.
My W was the happiest go lucky person in my eyes....
This last year has shown me another side to it all.
She is certainly in a depressive state.
Others that have known us both and some that knew her before I did have expressed another side.
One of unhappiness, even before we married.
Possible depression.
Mood swings from happy to upset.
Never cried, accept less than a handful of times when it was anger that drew out the tears.
She has been described to me by folks as unhappy and sad.
I said WTF!? Why did no one tell me this before?
Anyway, my point is, she is living in ignorance right now......
There is no bliss.
And I worry for her.

My thoughts........

[SH_]

More food for thought from the best brain possible research of mine.

"By understanding the difference between and becoming aware of your emotions and feelings, determining which is which and their root causes, and then inserting conscious thought followed by deliberate action, you can choose how you navigate and experience the world. Being able to do this means responding or reacting which can make the difference in a calm or chaotic life."

"I don’t mean to imply that by becoming aware of emotions and feelings and learning to respond rather than react that life will magically become filled with rainbows and butterflies. I am suggesting that by learning the difference and changing your thinking and behavior, that no matter what is going on around you, you can maintain your balance, your sense of peace, purpose, and hope and move forward toward your goals."

Very interesting as I found all of this to be true as I was studying meditations.


Ponder on this folks ad share your thoughts, reading and knowledge.
This will benefit each of us not only now, but in all of our relationships.

[BluWave]

(((SH))) Thank you. Lot's to think about. I tend to use words as I define them, but perhaps am using them incorrectly.

Instead of saying introspection, I should say that such an awareness of my own emotions and emotional responses had kept me ruminating and going in the same circles. I can see now how this caused a lot of additional pain.

When I was able to thought stop, give myself a break from the overwhelming feelings, and then move on to a differnt healthy/distracting or fun activity, it worked well most of the time. I would even need to remind myself that I could come back to feeling bad later. Sounds silly, but it did work. We must our bodies and minds a break from the stress.

Sometimes you just have to know how to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and keep marching on! I never mastered it, but I developed several tools that I can use the next time I face a crisis in my life.

The more I am removed from that time in my life, the more I find silver linings in my sitch. They are there for all of you, even if you cannot see them yet.

-Blu

[poschan]

"Most people are so completely identified with the voice in the head – the incessant stream of involuntary and compulsive thinking and the emotions that accompany it – that we may describe them as being possessed by their mind. As long as you are completely unaware of this you take the thinker to be who you are. This is the egoic mind. We call it egoic because there is a sense of self, of I (ego), in every thought – every memory, every interpretation, opinion, viewpoint, reaction, emotion. This is unconsciousness, spiritually speaking. Your thinking, the content of your mind, is of course conditioned by the past: your upbringing, culture, family background, and so on. The central core of all your mind activity consists of
certain repetitive and persistent thoughts, emotions, and reactive patterns that you identify with most strongly. This entity is the ego itself.
Recognize the ego for what it is: a collective dysfunction, the insanity of the human mind. When you recognize it for what it is, you no longer misperceive it as somebody's identity. Once you see the ego for what it is, it becomes much easier to remain nonreactive toward it. you don't take it personally anymore. there is no complaining, blaming, accusing, or making wrong. Nobody is wrong. It is the ego in someone, that's all. Compassion
arises when you recognize that all are suffering from the same sickness of the mind, some more acutely than others. You do not fuel the drama anymore that is part of all egoic relationships. What is its fuel? Reactivity. The ego thrives on it.
When you react against the form that Life takes at this moment, when you treat the Now as a means, an obstacle, or an enemy, you strengthen your own form identity, the ego. Hence the ego's reactivity. What is reactivity? Becoming addicted to reaction. The more reactive you are, the more entangled you become with form. The more identified with form, the stronger the ego. Your Being then does not shine through form anymore – or only barely.
Though nonresistance to form, that in you which is beyond form
emerges as an allencompassing Presence, a silent power far greater than your shortlived form identity, the person. It is more deeply who you are than anything in the world of form."

[PsySara]

I got really good at thought stopping by reading Anne Rice vampire books and then replaying scenes in my head at bed time. This helped immensely when my stupid brain decided to go a trip down memory/resentful lane. I am also a die-hard Trekkie and will replay entire episodes in my head. (My God I just showed allll my nerd credentials, didn't I?) I am not allowed any educational or self help stuff an hour before bedtime.

Brain candy was the answer for me, lol.

[trumpet]

Emotions come and go. Putting names to them helps to figure out what your brain is doing - we call them feelings. My counselor always asks 'What are you feeling today?' - he taught me what names I can put emotions to, so that I understand the emotion, and also can articulate WHY I felt that emotion.

If I follow my emotions, like my EX-WW, I will find cheeseless tunnels, row after row. I must stand by my BELIEFS, as anchors for my battleship at sea.

Knowing your feelings is like adding masts to the ship - I can raise and lower more sails - and batten down the hatches when times get tough, or raise more sails to put some distance on my route (aka - this feeling is GREAT! I want to be like this for a while longer!) My emotions will continue, but now I can CHOOSE to react (usually a bad idea) or make a calculated response... or no response at all.

My response is my responsibility. If you tell me that your response to your emotions is involuntary (hitting a wall, screaming, crying), it means you're letting the tail wag the dog. My response is my responsibility, always.

Another key - knowing your feelings, and articulating them, means you can share them with others! Example: "Hey, I had a great time with you, you made me feel really special - thank you!"

I used to believe people could read my mind - and understand I was happy or sad. People can't. Many blogs I read about Married life repeat that you can't mind read. SO true. Big mistake on my part with my EX-WW. But telling us NOT to mind-read is only a quarter of the way to helping the situation. You must learn how to tell people how you're feeling, not through involuntary reactions to emotions, but articulating them through descriptive words, naming them as feelings. That's another 25%; then the other half is finding courage to tell those we love how we feel, and also demonstrating how we feel (love) through actions... not just words.

I have learned much in the last year. I pray my EX-WW will someday learn the same. I truly pray for her every day. I can't change her, or how she feels. I can't even try to start teaching her this - it has to come from within - a desire to want something better. Unfortunately, she had many bad teachers in her life about feelings and emotions, and it would take years (me thinks) to get her battleship to turn around...

I can't fix her, I can only pray for her. That's part of detachings - the other part is making sure my ship is on the right course - and purposely working the ship to keep it on course. It's my responsibility.

[BluWave]

Thanks, everyone! Good stuff :-)

I don't often post about my current sitch. I don't want that to be the entire focus of my life and I am trying to accept where things are. when I read some of the threads here--especially from the women with WH--it does makes me think about where I was a couple years ago and where I am now.

I don't know if I will ever feel the same about my H. Yes, that M is dead and gone and we must create something new. I get that. Yes, it takes two people to destroy and thus recreate the R. I get that too. My life is fairly normal and I don't have any big complaints about H. He is actually a very nice person, a wonderful father, a hardworking man, and he has looked inside himself and made changes. He is truly remorseful and regrets what happened.

All that said, it doesn't change how I feel. Some days I don't feel anything. I don't need much advice and feedback, and I am okay ducking under the radar. I accept where I am today. I am saying this because for those of you that don't want your M anymore and are ready to move on, I think that is okay. I didn't let myself consider that as an option, I was too scared. I know that sounds sad and goes against why we are here, but it's the truth.

We all have options and choices. I don't want to hold onto anything too tightly anymore, I want to just live life.

-Blu

[SH_]

Yes, some very good information and thoughts here.
paschal, I love to see what you shared. I know as you review it more it will start to stick.
Sara, we all have to find what works for us. I like the approach that you used. Sometimes we can all be to serious, but your approach is good for the mind.
trumpet,
Now your post really strikes a chord for me.
It is a golden post...
I am going to copy to my thread as it resonates with me and I want to be able to review and ponder on it several times.

(((SH))) Thank you. Lot's to think about. I tend to use words as I define them, but perhaps am using them incorrectly.

Instead of saying introspection, I should say that such an awareness of my own emotions and emotional responses had kept me ruminating and going in the same circles. I can see now how this caused a lot of additional pain.

When I was able to thought stop, give myself a break from the overwhelming feelings, and then move on to a differnt healthy/distracting or fun activity, it worked well most of the time. I would even need to remind myself that I could come back to feeling bad later. Sounds silly, but it did work. We must our bodies and minds a break from the stress.

Sometimes you just have to know how to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and keep marching on! I never mastered it, but I developed several tools that I can use the next time I face a crisis in my life.

The more I am removed from that time in my life, the more I find silver linings in my sitch. They are there for all of you, even if you cannot see them yet.

-Blu

I completely see what you are saying, in spite of the terms you used.
I am bad about breaking down words and looking for the nitty gritty of the definitions as I find valuable details in the details....
But that is not to take away from your point.
Pulling oneself up by the bootstraps no matter what the manner is for sure the key and you have done this and you do so much to swing the 2X4 in the manner to encourage others not to have to do it the hard way.

You have become aware of so much, and this is the valuable parts of your story that I so appreciate you sharing.

I don't often post about my current sitch. I don't want that to be the entire focus of my life and I am trying to accept where things are. when I read some of the threads here--especially from the women with WH--it does makes me think about where I was a couple years ago and where I am now.

Acceptance is key, and you have a good focus on wha you want to change inside yourself, and your advice to others is golden.

I don't know if I will ever feel the same about my H. Yes, that M is dead and gone and we must create something new. I get that. Yes, it takes two people to destroy and thus recreate the R. I get that too. My life is fairly normal and I don't have any big complaints about H. He is actually a very nice person, a wonderful father, a hardworking man, and he has looked inside himself and made changes. He is truly remorseful and regrets what happened.

As you continue to work on you, the paths of the future will lead where they lead.
The good, is that you don't have to decide if you will ever feel differently about your H.
As you become more aware of your emotions and respond in a manner that is fulfilling for you, the feelings will settle where they are meant to.
You are traveling a good path IMHO.

All that said, it doesn't change how I feel. Some days I don't feel anything. I don't need much advice and feedback, and I am okay ducking under the radar. I accept where I am today. I am saying this because for those of you that don't want your M anymore and are ready to move on, I think that is okay. I didn't let myself consider that as an option, I was too scared. I know that sounds sad and goes against why we are here, but it's the truth.

Study more about the emotions and the feelings.
My STBX stated that many times as she left. She said she did not feel anything for anyone....
My IC indicated that is not really possible, but that one can surprise feelings, but they will come out, and typically it is not in a good manner.....
This is what lead me to my research of this topic we are having.
The post I made about one having emotions, but not really being aware...until it boys over...

I am not saying tat is you, but learn of this, and then you will be equipped to respond in the time that is right.

Sorry, I know you said you did not need advice....

We all have options and choices. I don't want to hold onto anything too tightly anymore, I want to just live life.

A very wise approach to moving forward IMHO.

[SH_]

I ran across this story that really has me thinking....

"For example in my 18 year marriage, my ex-husband held all the power and control, was emotionally cruel, and uncaring. In the years following our divorce, he continued the treatment by harassing me legally as he drug me in and out of court for a decade with false allegations of endangering the children, cohabitation, and more. I learned to fear him and his actions. It got to the point where if I just saw an email from him in my inbox, my heart would start pounding, my breathing would become rapid and shallow, and I would actually start sweating. Then, I would soon feel dread, anxious, and worried. My body was exhibiting the instinctual emotion of fear followed by the feelings I had learned to associate with him.

During the marriage and for years after, I reacted from this fearful place as the overly emotional, angry victim who fought back. As the years passed after the divorce, I slowly evolved, began to live more mindfully, and learned a different way. It took years, but I was eventually able to not knee-jerk react to his antics and to consciously and deliberately choose my feelings and behaviors according to who I wanted to be and how I wanted to live my life. When I mastered this skill, life calmed way down for me, and I managed to find peace and happiness despite the fact that he continued his attacks on me.

While I was in the process of growing, it would frustrate me to no end because my heart would still pound upon just getting a message from him. I felt like my body was betraying me while, in my head, I knew better and remained calm and confident. My body still exhibited the emotion, but I inserted conscious thought and instructed myself as to how I wanted to feel and proceed.

In the gaps between emotion, feeling, and acting, we all have the power to change and direct our lives for the better. Understanding your emotions and managing your feelings with conscious thinking so they don’t hijack your brain followed by conscious action can actually change your brain through neuroplasticity, the scientifically proven ability of your brain to change form and function based on repeated emotion, thought, and behavior, and change your life."