What should I be doing (Working toward D 9)

[Surfer]

Altar,

Spot on, I am sure in reality there are very few FF's that have a six pack and an oiled up chest! Similarly, there may be a few strippers that may not have, or had either a life of abuse and/or drug abuse. I don't know anyone that has a stripper as a G/F or wife - but its a very profitable and prolific fantasy.

I think my W has a uniform, out with the girls flirting fantasy. There is the opposite here also, I am sure many a bloke will like the fantasy of sex with a 40 years of mother of a D8 and S6, but when they start living the life, bills, nagging, nothings perfect.....etc That fantasy would fall too.

I think people need to check into reality more. Yes, enjoy your life, but make sure its not a fantasy..

Surfer.

[Coconut]

I'm going to post a series of texts between my WW and I as an example of how you cannot talk sense into a WS... This is not DB, this is not being detached and validating, this is NOT what you want to do, but I'm passed trying to save my M so I had nothing to lose, but thought it might help to see there is no reasoning. You'll notice that when she says something I believe is not true and state a fact, she doesn't generally respond, that's pretty typical.

Me:

Visit any Betrayed Spouse support group, messaging board, or blog and you will see a great outpouring of comments when someone calls an affair a “mistake”.

I join them in that outcry and I try to never use mistake and affair in the same conversation.

In fact I remember the day that my husband called his affair “The biggest mistake of his life.” From the outside you would think a statement like that would make you feel better. But it didn’t, I recoiled at the statement and let all the reasons fly out of my mouth the affair was not a mistake.

When he visited his individual counselor a few days later his counselor used the “m” word and my husband relayed to him our conversation. He sat back and said “You know, she is correct.”

An affair is not a mistake.


Mistake vs. Choice


A mistake is something you misunderstand the meaning or intention of. Often it happens when you are trying to do something right, but get it wrong. Generally a mistake happens once and you learn from the negative result and don’t continue to repeat the same mistake.

A mistake is disempowering and offers a slip-up, error, or blunder.

An affair is a series of choices and deliberate decisions, often repeated, even whilst knowing the negative result. There is no misunderstanding the meaning or intention of the choice.

A choice is empowering and offers the power of selecting and option.


“You can never make the same mistake twice, because the second time you make it, it’s not a mistake, it’s a CHOICE.” – Stephen Denn


Characterizing an affair as a mistake is a misguided attempt to minimize the responsibility and intent by reducing the importance of it. After all, everyone makes mistakes, it therefore not a big deal, (and the other line that revolts me) it just happened. (See next blog on that!)

An affair is not a single misstep, but the result of a series of choices. The affair requires repetition of choices and the decision to deceive the faithful partner. I won’t go into the million and one choices that must be made starting from flirting to taking a vacation together, because I know you are well aware of those.

We make mistakes, and from those mistakes we learn and grow. We don’t generally pay for those mistakes for the rest of our lives and most of the time they do not cause trauma to another.

We make choices, and with those choices comes accepting the subsequent consequences and holding ourselves fully accountable. We have exercised poor judgement in making choices and the result is we learn from them as well.

Sometimes good people make really bad choices. It doesn’t mean they are bad people but rather they are human. Just as our mistakes do not define us, our choices don’t have to either.

What defines us is the choices and decision we make moving forward.

[Coconut]

WW:
I understand that what I did was wrong, no doubt about it. I should have talked to you about how unhappy I was in our marriage but you are acting as if I had this long time affair in which I had sexual relations with the person. It was nothing of the sort & you are making me out to be this horrible person to everyone you talk to.

You have taken on the victim role so well. I don't really care what betrayed spouses websites say because I guarantee you that those affairs where for much longer periods of time & much more physical. That quite plainly is not what I did. I was sad, lonely & vulnerable & I made the wrong decision to act on that emotion but you are not an innocent party in all this & you seem to really think you are. I'm tired of carrying every single bit of the blame on my shoulders. I am more than willing to take the blame that I deserve, which is a lot but not all if it.


Me:
I take responsibility for who I had become, and I've done a lot to change it, many would say I'm like a new person and they are sorry for what I'm going through but happy to see who I've become.

But I take no responsibility in ending our marriage, your defiance to being open and honest, to do whatever you could do to try and fix our relationship, to repair trust between us is what killed our marriage. I stuck around when I found out you were in love with another man, I stuck around when I found out you were talking about him to others like he was a friend, I didn't give up until I heard you tell him you wanted to let him know why you were sad, something you never did with me, tell me how or why you were feeling.

I did everything I could to help us find our happiness by going to counseling for me, by scheduling it for us, by telling you everything I was doing to see if you were being faithful and everything I saw when doing so. I was completely honest about how I felt, what I thought and what I wanted/needed from you. You just kept telling me that you wanted things to go back to normal, when normal is what got us here.

I have not played victim, I've told everyone I talked to about my part in this, even to the point I verbalized my understanding of what you did to my family when I told them, because I was absent / distant and drinking, but I also told them the facts and they made their own decisions how to feel. I can tell you that my mom asked Eric if he had talked to you, and she said something to the effect of yeah, I haven't heard from her either.. It made me think she was sad about the fact you never reached out to her, I'm mind reading but that's what went through my head. I reached out to the ones I love for support and to live my life with them, you seem to have withdrawn from everyone.. The only people who haven't supported me at all are the two I wanted it most from, you and Austin. I never even got a real apology from you, just that you made a mistake you regret, but never an understanding of the hell it caused me...

I'm ok with where we are going, I don't like it but I know I can do this, but I'm having a hard time getting past the lies/deceit, and indifference you've shown to me since I found out. I honestly have no love for you right now, only anger. I realize I need to get past that, and I'm working on getting past the anger, I need to if I want to be a part of Austins life at all, but it's not an easy road to get down. As it stands now I am the only person I can worry about, the only relationship I can focus on is with myself. Austin has withdrawn from me, and I don't like it but I understand and respect his decision, and I don't have the ability to try and repair that right now, for now I just give him his space.

[Coconut]

WW:
Well you've definitely not shown me this new great guy. All you've shown me is a mean, vindictive, cruel person. And you've taken no responsibility for your actions

Me:
Not until you went back to him

WW:
You're freaking crazy! I didn't go back to anyone. You just like to spread lies

Me:
I lie requires some belief it's not true, I've told you what I know and have not heard anything to make me believe it's not true... I know what you told him, I know you told Friend what not to text about him, I know you put some work in so other people didn't out your deceit.

WW:
The only reason you heard me tell her not to text me his name is because I told her the whole story & I didn't want her asking me questions or using his name in a text because the last time she did that you lost your mind. I told her that for my piece of mind.

ME:
I'm curious, when you say I've taken no responsibility for my actions, what does that mean? What does me taking responsibility look like? I feel like I have and am not sure why you think I haven't. Also, did you expand my whole text or just read the first two paragraphs?

WW:
I mean that you minimize anything I was going through over the last 2 years, tell me I'm exaggerating (like you have any [censored] clue what I was feeling), you place sole blame on me & have moved into the victim role very comfortably. It's just a little ridiculous. You don't see that my actions, although wrong & I take responsibility for that, are a result of your actions (or inaction). You can say what you want & I was the one who acted but when you were engaged & involved in our marriage, I texting with another person never even entered my mind. I was happy & content.

WW:
I only saw one small paragraph. Son hasn't withdrawn from you because of what's going on with us. He has withdrawn from both of us. He doesn't talk to me. I take him the the movies & its silence. He only goes because he wants to see a movie. He is sad about His ex gf & my dad is the only person he's talking to. His actions are not due to us.

[Coconut]

WW:
I haven't spoken to your mom because I'm scared to. I want to, I miss her like crazy & she is very important to me. I plan to speak to her it I don't know what you've told her or what I'd be walking in.

WW:
I have no desire to speak to Cousin, I expect that your family would take your side. They think your perfect & I'm sure nothing you say to them will change their mind. Cousin constantly posting stupid [censored] on FB when this is really none of his business has made me really not want anything to do with him. Especially because he has zero room to talk [censored] about anyone. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Even if our relationship was reparable, my relationship with him is not

WW:
I have stopped defending myself to you because you don't believe me anyway so I feel like it's wasted breath. I did not continue a relationship with him. I was not in love with him. I said things to him that I didn't mean because I was looking for the companionship that I wasn't getting from you. You completely misunderstood my conversation with Friend. After I thought we decided to divorce I refriended him but that's it. I was trying to be honest with him about my intentions being that of a friend. That's it, regardless of what you think.

WW:
We do not talk at all. I see him once in a while at the station & I'm friends with him on FB but that's it. I have seen or talked to him on any type of messaging system in weeks.

ME:
That explanation doesn't explain you saying you wanted to let him know why you were sad the night before or that you didn't want to have secrets

ME:
Quote from her- I said things to him that I didn't mean because I was looking for the companionship that I wasn't getting from you.

That part is definitely not true, because after we had our first discussion I recognized what I was doing and completely changed my attention to you and Austin.. Austin noticed it, accepted it and loved it... But you ran from my attention and then started the affair, so don't say you did it because you weren't getting attention from me

WW:
I did

ME:
Then that's on you, because I was giving you all the attention I could when you started the affair.. If you chose not to accept the attention, that's on you

WW:
Of course. It's always on me. Well in your mind anyway.

ME:
So are you saying I wasn't trying to spend time with you, give you attention and affection when you started the affair? I'm confused

That's why I asked you to go to individual counseling, because almost 5 months after having the affair I still don't think you understand why you did it...

[Coconut]

ME:
My personal belief (not saying I'm right just what I think) is that the emotional connection (or possibly mid life crises) was already happening, he was perusing you and you loved the attention, which is why I noticed a difference in you.. Then when I started showing you attention you felt guilty because you saw that I could change and we could work things out, but you wanted the high you got from him and the firefighting... You didn't want to stop the high, so you pushed me away thinking I wouldn't go anywhere and escalated the affair to increase the high.

And I'm not the only one that saw you change, I believe others asked you about what was going on with you

WW:
You would love to think that I'm going through a mid-life crises, I know but it's just not true. A. I'm not at the mid-life crises age. B. I'm not evaluating my life or feeling like I have to be young again. I'm enjoying life, enjoying feeling healthy by exercising & taking care of myself which is something that I've always done.

It's pretty funny that you automatically act like I'm going through all these changes because I feel good about myself. I know that you haven't done any real activity in years & you wouldn't understand the feeling you get when you work out, see progress & feel good about yourself. No one has said anything to me about "Changes" they see in me. They've told you because everyone is trying come up with reasons for why we are going through this. Cousin 1 and Cousin 2 can say they see changes in me all they want but truth is they have hardly seen me in the last 6 months so they have no clue.

My reasons as I've stated before & have not changed for joining the FD are to be a good example for son, to do something good for my community, to give me something to focus on when Son leaves & to challenge myself. That's it. You and cousins aren't doctors so let's leave the diagnosis to the professionals & stop trying to act like your even remotely qualified to diagnose me.

WW:
Also, I do plan on speaking to a therapist soon but because I want to. I believe it'll help me deal with our situation & it'll be good for me.

ME:
So your BFF didn't ask you if there was someone at the station because u were acting weird

Or your mom didn't tell you she thought you might be going through a mid life crises

All before anyone knew about the affair

ME:
Ps look up mid life crises, you had your 40th bday (big deal to you) and you had a 35 year old friend die, call can be common causes

That was the last text... Only communication since was her asking me if I'm moving out before house sells when she saw me packing stuff up this morning. I just said "I'm not sure".

[cbtdad]

Wow!
That's a lot Cnut!
Please don't get mad at me for saying this, but you still love her and want to be with her. Your angry. That is an opposite of love. If you were indifferent and ready to move forward you wouldn't even have that conversation.
I wouldn't worry about what she is doing or not. I think a physical separation is a good idea at this point.
I don't think she is ignoring everything as much as she believes what she is telling you to be is truth.
I am just saying this as outside observer of the conversation, but there seemed to be a lot of mind reading on your part.
Remember you are not her. You do not know what she is thinking or feeling.
Man this is tough stuff.
I know people say marriage shouldn't be this hard, but every couple that I have talked to that has been together for 25 years or longer says they have been through years were they didn't want to be in there marriage any longer
I don't know what you want in the end and I am not sure you do either right now. At least not with any certainty, so I think you should move out for a week and start there

[MoveFrwd]

I'm passed trying to save my M so I had nothing to lose

What does not wanting to be married anymore have to do with trying to have effective communication? Are you suggesting that listening and validating are only tools to restore your marriage?

[Coconut]

cbt, I don't know what us working it out would look like anymore. I miss what we had, but I really don't think I want her back right now.. But if she came to me one day and said I quite FF, I can't believe I did what I did, could you ever forgive me, I would probably feel different. But that's not going to happen.

Darkness, not saying that at all, in fact my communication with others has munched improved... Just so much anger with her, I don't even want to talk to her much less validate her feelings..

[RSG]

This was a pretty big conversation!

I think this is a spot on illustration of the Rashomon effect. 2 (or more) people seeing the same event but having completely different memories of it.

She recognizes she did wrong, but refuses to work with you in any way on your #1 boundary and doesn't accept how much she hurt you. Because of that, you're afraid it'll just restart and you'll be hurt again. It seems there is common love, but neither of you will give. You want her away from a male dominated area where a pretty woman will receive oodles of attention, and she wants to do something for herself she feels is giving back, fun and will keep her from having empty nest syndrome.

I think, like CBT, if you moved out and maybe gave a little on the FF you could really work on things. But, again, we all have our boundaries and FF is #1 for you....