Being there to help v going dark:balance

[betterm]

I believe the three areas that are found in waywards are resentment (refusing to forgive and/or letting go of the past; unmet expectations; unfulfilled emotional needs; etc.), disrespect (shown in the tone of voice and volume; put-downs; eye-rolling and other facial & body language; making fun of the S in front of others; not showing respect for the S in front of the children and/or others; lying; deceiving; and many other ways) and rebellion (any act that represents an uprising; disobedience; going in the opposite direction of the standards, norms, and values of the M; directly going against the wishes of their spouse.

Goodness Gracious, this is just astonishing when I see it put into text. Whether an EA/PA or No A at all, I see how Wayward is not necessarily meaning there is an A, but just the mentality in general, however, commonly leads to an A of some sort. My post on my thread this morning talked about lingering WAW and how it develops into a WW, now I see, it's not a guided process, Wayward is Wayward...

I meant to clarify. Whilst there was an EA (providing a payoff) does rebellion Now provide the payoff? Is that sufficient? Is the payoff a 'buzz'? How does the payoff make the WW feel?

Thank you.

I'm not an expert, but I've learned a lot in recent times. I'm not sure about Wayward behavior in general, but rebellion probably does fit the bill. You have to think of it like an addiction. Does a heroin addict really "enjoy" what they are doing? meh, some might, most probably don't, but it provides the chemical release in their brain that they need. They get the "fix" they need, and then mostly regret what they are doing.

I would think rebellion is probably more of a temporary fix for something WW is probably either holding back from, or just hinting that there is something grander going on that she may be pumping up for. Have you ever done research on what "limerance" is? Do a quick search and, while limerance is focused on the "madly in love" addiction, it does provide insight on how being rebellious can release the chemicals to make a depressed/confused person feel like they are doing a good thing.

[betterm]

Why do you think most WW's are unhappy - or don't they know?

Not sure if this is just for sandi or not, but here's my quick thoughts on it:

Guilt/Shame, breaking up of a family/children, Feelings of Desperation (became wayward because was missing something). She might get a "fix", but no one likes feeling desperate, She's probably Lying a lot - losing touch with her real self in the process. She's disconnected from her authenticity... If there was codependency in the relationship, it's a new learning process without it. She's lost herself, her purpose, her passion, her everything, and she's only finding temporary fixes in whatever ways she can to fill the voids, only to end up back at the same place of sadness/regret/anger/despair...

I didn't put a lot of time into this, literally just what rolled off my fingers as I typed. but I think each case will be different, and really, if you know your W, the one that you married, not the one that's Wayward, it shouldn't be hard to diagnose the psychology issues she might be dealing with in leaving the M.

[Surfer]

Betterm,

Thanks for this. Really insightful stuff. Limerence is very interesting. Some reading ahead over the next few days I think...

I guess resentment comes with the 'feeling' ("I feel hurt" - by you, the focus of my blame because how can I blame myself for my own hurt, someone else needs to be the bad guy).

Then comes disrespect because you are doing all the wrong things and have no b@alls.

Then rebellion - why do I want to do what you want when I disrespect you. The rebellion will be a stuck record perhaps or is it fix (the payoff being partying etc, being validated for rebelling with the OM or even by friends etc)? I am not sure. Perhaps the rebellious 'buzz' a WW feels is a big part of the story? It could explain why, when the WW is being wayward - she is happy (that might be because she is being 'wayward with an OM or just being wayward' - Sandi's point). In between when she crashes is it because the 'high' is not there and only being wayward ('rebel character traits') provides this drug?

I was also thinking about how, if you disrespected someone in the past, they got (or could get) your respect back. That is about authority, boundary setting and reinforcement, being interesting and being interested (perhaps). AKA boundaries, GAL & creating intrigue, listening/validating - the final ingredient is on the final line of your signature - I might loose her totally (but I am quite happy with that as the 'the rebel character' is a total **** and unless she leaves my wife's body - my wife is not coming back into my life)....

Don't know. I am only starting to understand all this. Just thoughts.

[Surfer]

She does lie a lot. Might it be as simple as there is not enough connection - that creates the desperation? I don't know.

[betterm]

Yes, it's the domino effect. feeling of drifting apart, the loss of connection, then the actual drifting apart, then once things are bad, you've probably heard people talk about "we only see our past through the lenses of today" (or something like that...)

Basically if things are bad, we remember all the bad things and none of the good stuff. and vice versa. When your mind is consumed with nothing but all these negative memories, feelings, emotions, fears, etc... it leads to any sorts of things, but almost always something negative.

Resentment/Contempt/Worry/Anger... these are all just forms of fear and/or hurt, usually some form of the two mixed together. In my W's case... she "tried for so long" (albeit, with improper methods, and my neglect), and eventually, she just ran out of gas... once that happened all her attempts at reaching out to me (cries for help, if you will), stopped, and her own hurt transformed into hatred and contempt for me and "what I had done to us".

[Surfer]

Sh!tola - that last para. is exactly us. So how do you rationalise it? Jog on with a new W (eventually) or try and make good the old MR? Or just crack on and whatever happens happens?

[betterm]

Sh!tola - Jog on with a new W (eventually) or try and make good the old MR?

Neither, work on yourself and transforming Surfer into the best person he can be. A "new W" is not even something I'm even thinking about at the moment, nor is making the old MR turn "good." The DB principles outline this to a T, and even if reconciliation is your ultimate goal, the steps to get there are the same as if you were preparing for your next MR with someone else. In reality, you are preparing for your life with or without a M in the picture. And you can't think about reconciling right now anyways, because the variable (person) on the other side of that formula is not only something you can't control, it's someone that isn't even the same person you originally fell in love with and married. My W right now, is not the same person I developed my passion for, or maybe she is, and my eyes have been opened to see the blind-spots that were hidden during the "in love" phase of our R.

[Surfer]

Blimey. You are bang on the money with this Betterm.

So you have opened your eyes and "sorry WW not interested" or WW becomes who she was and you hopefully reconcile.

In the meantime time for Betterm the better man!

[lfm]

I don't think it necessarily means "sorry WW not interested" or that she becomes who she was. I think it's more a matter of determining is the person she has become and the person you are becoming going to be able to find a new path forward.

I know in my case my WW and myself have both changed a lot over the 22 years we have known each other. I don't want the person we had each become to be what we move forward with. We both have lots of work to do on ourselves, and until that happens, I know we can't possible consider finding a path forward together. And my WW has not ended her affair yet, so definitely not moving forward with that.

Just my two cents on this subject...

[EDF]

Perhaps the rebellious 'buzz' a WW feels is a big part of the story? It could explain why, when the WW is being wayward - she is happy (that might be because she is being 'wayward with an OM or just being wayward' - Sandi's point). In between when she crashes is it because the 'high' is not there and only being wayward ('rebel character traits') provides this drug?

This made me think of an article I read a long time ago about fear/adrenaline and attractiveness. Basically they had subjects rate the attractiveness of people under normal conditions, and then also rated the attractiveness of people after they passed each other mid-way on a suspended rope bridge. The people they passed on the rope bridge were rated significantly higher in attractiveness, apparently because your brain has trouble differentiating between the thrill/high from attractiveness vs fear/danger.

I think that ties in to how people point out that a big part of the thrill from affairs and affair partners is the secretive nature of it and the fear of getting caught/consequences.

Take away the fear-inducing environment and things get a lot more mundane.