Baby steps

[Painter]

We cycled again. I started feeling hopeful and thought perhaps we had a chance, after all, and reached out to H. He had been so nice and said he wouldn't stop trying.

Tonight I got the backlash - irritable and firing questions at me impatiently, sudden anger and raging at me, putting me down, telling me how I've let him down (financially by not being able to get a full-time job, although he said before we married that I wouldn't have to work and I did land a part-time job last fall), rewriting history, blaming, making me feel like I am nothing and have no worth. It was a verbal beating that left me feeling devastated.

I told him that I felt this was a repeat of a pattern - we get close and he pushes me away again - which just made him angrier.

He was so angry and cold and mean that there was no way to try to have a rational conversation. I didn't show any anger back, just tried to calm things down and listened. And I said I thought he was way too angry and mean and I didn't deserve being talked to that way.

I almost feel now like I was beaten physically - it was so intense. I ache all over, probably from tension.

Well, I guess I asked for it. I got back on the rollercoaster and it just confirms what I thought. I experimented and observed the result... clearly not good.

[NYGal]

Ouch. I'm so sorry this happened to you. The getting close and pushing away is so difficult.

[Zephyr]

Good morning painter, i am sorry you had such a tough interaction.

I am glad that you were able to keep your head and not take the bait for you to get angry back at him. This is a good thing.

Telling him that you do not deserve to be spoken to like that is a good thing.

Keep you head up.

[JujuB]

Hi painter

Husband and I have similar dynamic. I guess the lesson learned (for me as well) is that for it to work they have to be the one to reach out. Not us. They are well aware of where we stand. If they want it bad enough, they will make it happen. Until/if then we have to just go about our lives. we both have to stop this pattern by not engaging or initiating. We also have to get ourselves in a better place, where we can take them or leave them. I think that is when they come back anyhow. When we no longer care. And that is even if you want them back. It will be hard for me to look back on this and forgive when I am no longer attached. So why do we want them back when their behaviors are so horrific?

I think maybe we are in a bit of denial, seeing small things as olive branches. look at the husbands on this board and the extremes they go to when they want their wives back. that's what would have to happen. And even then, if husband hasn't made his own 180s why would you think your marriage could work?

If I was dating someone, that did this (neglect, no return of phone calls, yelled at me) I would move forward and not look back. So what is keeping us participants in this very unhealthy cycle? What do you think?

I know how it feels to be on the receiving end of that type of verbal lashing. They are having little temper tantrums and I don't get it. Yet they say crap like " I haven't stopped trying". Can someone explain the psychology behind it? I think it's because deep down they like the power they wield. They know those little words keep us dangling on a string. I don't understand what they get out of being cruel like that. I don't think they are viewing us as people with feelings. we are their enemies. The people they blame for everything that went wrong in their lives.

We do have the power to say no, this is not healthy for me. No more.

let's fake detachment together so that it turns real. I have been not initiating anything for a month. i now have to get some GAL activities. What else can we do so they are not permanently on our minds?

[Painter]

Thank you, NYGal, Zephyr and Juju. I know you all know exactly what this feels like. I wish none of us had to experience this pain!

Juju, I don't know what causes the dynamic, I think it can be individual for each person. I believe it is something internal in H. He has FOO issues that could explain it. It's definitely not making him happy or satisfied. He was irritable all yesterday from when he came home, and he blew completely up over a very small thing that is a trigger issue for him.

I think what's keeping me in it is a mix of several factors: love, family, commitment and tenacity, strong bonds established over many years, fear of the losses I will experience if/when I move out - emotionally and financially.

The boyfriend I had before I met H, cheated on me and lied extensively. I immediately dropped all contact with him after telling him off. It was very, very painful and H knew how hurt I was by it. However, I wasn't even tempted to give it another try with him - there wasn't enough of an investment. I think a M is much more different than living together or dating than I thought it would be.

I actually felt like H was reaching out - he was giving me all the affection I had asked for, kept his anger under control, apologized for things, told me he wouldn't stop trying when I asked why he was being so nice after I said I would move out. He kept inviting me very nicely (no pressure) to come sleep in his bedroom.

For the most part, since the A, he has been much less angry - it has been a 180 for him, although he doesn't know what a 180 is. It's a change he has made. He is also much more open to conversation and is expressing himself much more. Last night he reverted to the way he used to be - and I suspect it was because we got close again.

But it's very, very painful to be on the receiving end of such anger after having made myself vulnerable again. My gut reaction is to get far, far away. I'm thinking about maybe not being home when he gets home from work, but I have a conference call that I would prefer to have in my home office so I don't know if it's possible.

[Zues126]

I actually felt like H was reaching out - he was giving me all the affection I had asked for, kept his anger under control, apologized for things, told me he wouldn't stop trying when I asked why he was being so nice after I said I would move out. He kept inviting me very nicely (no pressure) to come sleep in his bedroom.

I agree. He seems to be reaching out.

For the most part, since the A, he has been much less angry - it has been a 180 for him, although he doesn't know what a 180 is. It's a change he has made. He is also much more open to conversation and is expressing himself much more.

I think it's ok to tell him this at some point. Approval, affirmation, acceptance...this is the predominant male need. If he gets the perception that you consider him immoral, immature, unreasonable, going through MLC, and that because of that you look down on him and dismiss him as a man and dismiss his views and needs as unreasonable or dysfunctional, he will likely withdraw and disconnect. If he feels that you view him as an equal, as a strong life partner, a whole person, with valid views and needs that should be represented and weighed even if you don't see it the same, he will feel respected, safe, and ultimately closer and able to open up more. This isn't "aimed" at you as I have no idea whether you've acknowledged this or not, just sharing general thoughts.

Tonight I got the backlash - irritable and firing questions at me impatiently, sudden anger and raging at me, putting me down, telling me how I've let him down...
...But it's very, very painful to be on the receiving end of such anger after having made myself vulnerable again. My gut reaction is to get far, far away. I'm thinking about maybe not being home when he gets home from work, but I have a conference call that I would prefer to have in my home office so I don't know if it's possible.

NO ONE should be subjected to this. I'm sorry you have felt so attacked and unsafe.

I definitely agree you should set some firm boundaries. If you feel attacked and unsafe you should be able to remove yourself from the situation without responding or escalating (good job!).

I don't think the answer is distancing or being unavailable. I don't see how this will improve the situation as it denies the opportunity for positive interactions as well. The goal should be to welcome the positives and abort the negatives.

FROM JU: They are having little temper tantrums and I don't get it. Yet they say crap like " I haven't stopped trying". Can someone explain the psychology behind it?

I don't think this is anything about animosity, power, punishment, or anything like that.

My take on this is that H feels *dismissed*. People raise their voices when they feel that they aren't being heard. This can be either because their partner truly isn't hearing what they're saying, or more often because their partner is dismissing or minimizing it.

Note her reaction to H's outburst:

Tonight I got the backlash - irritable and firing questions at me impatiently, sudden anger and raging at me, putting me down, telling me how I've let him down (financially by not being able to get a full-time job, although he said before we married that I wouldn't have to work and I did land a part-time job last fall), rewriting history, blaming, making me feel like I am nothing and have no worth. It was a verbal beating that left me feeling devastated.

I told him that I felt this was a repeat of a pattern - we get close and he pushes me away again - which just made him angrier.

Does this seem to be validating?

Now, I already posted she shouldn't put up with verbal assault. So the part where she said nothing was being accomplished and she needed to end the conversation is absolutely spot on.

As for the content of what he's saying, though...this isn't validating. It seems to me she thinks H is unreasonable, hypocritical (debating the work issue), minimizing/dismissive ('rewriting history'), and focused on her dislike of his delivery. And I can see why he'd be upset with you saying 'the pattern is repeating', in his mind the pattern is repeating because you dismiss the needs he is voicing to you. And the same way that it hurts you to open up and then to be raged at, it hurts him to open up and then be dismissed.

It IS a cycle. He feels he isn't being heard and raises his voice. She gets upset that he's raising his voice and doesn't hear him. You know what I mean.

Not an easy spot for sure. I agree protecting yourself is a top priority. But I also agree that he's reaching out. I think if you place more of an emphasis on hearing what he's saying, validating him, and then acting as if what he's telling you about his experience, feelings, and needs, is every bit as true and real as yours, you will break the cycle.

What message is he trying to communicate that he feels is not getting through? What are the underlying needs that aren't being met that are causing him to feel so wounded? Are these issues worth divorcing for or is there some validity to them?

I felt compelled to post because this is so similar to my M. XW decided I was angry, unsafe, unreasonable, diagnosed me with a few FOO/personality disorders, then divorced me. That's one road. There is another.

[Painter]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Zues. I started this reply hours ago, but had to interrupt, so hoping it's not very disjointed. (I feel disjointed tonight.)

I have told H several times over the last few months that I have noticed the change in him, that he is much less angry, and also that we are having better conversations than ever before. I have said that I realize it's been a real effort that he has made consistently over some time now, and that I very much appreciate it and it has made things so much better. That it has given me hope.

Yesterday it was back to the old behavior, with the added coldness and blaming that entered the picture at the time of the A. And I have noticed repeatedly that it happens after we get closer.

One of the greatest difficulties I have in the R with H is that his reactions depend so much on his mood. The exact same thing can elicit completely different reactions depending on his mood and who did what.

You are right that he feels that I don't hear him - it is hard when he's hurling accusations that seem very unfair (he starts there, there is no escalation from a conversation > discussion > argument, he starts out in full rant mode on the top of his lungs. Imagine a military drill sergeant reaming out recruits.)

In this particular case, I was telling him that because I had built up a little surplus in my business account, I could help pay an expense he thought would be all on him. My mistake was to mention in passing a $25 business expense I have that he doesn't agree with.
He immediately started yelling and raging about it and went on for a full 15 minutes, which then turned into a rant about me not having a full-time job and all the income we could have had if I had worked for the last 10 years.

(Knowing what I know now, I would have preferred that, too. He could have paid for care for his mother, and I could have earned Social Security for myself.)

I used to have 2-3 jobs before we married, and I have always worked from home - still do. I have other opportunities for income that I am developing.

H feels that the work I do from home, doesn't count. He feels that I am making bad choices when it comes to the other things I pursue, and that it's just a repeat of what he perceives as past failures. He thinks that because my preferred jobs center around helping people, they are 'too altruistic'. He feels burdened with being the breadwinner. He has a sense of urgency when it comes to the finances, but we're not in a crisis and he has a *very* good income. Our financial situation has improved a lot over the last couple of years after a dip from when he was laid off, and it will keep improving (even in spite of any S/D). He is very angry over being unable to retire, which is due to poor choices he made a few years ago, against my wishes, but he blames on me not having had steady, high income during the M (which I couldn't get in this area).

He expresses resentment over choices going back over a decade. He remembers telling me I never had to work unless I wanted to, but 'things changed'. He doesn't think he can get past the resentment.

On my side, I know this: H likes to spend - a lot. This is a pattern that goes back to way before we met. I was never comfortable putting my foot down on the spending exactly because he was the breadwinner and we were adults when we married.

In reality, H would have taken any increased family income as an opportunity to buy more expensive, bigger toys and gadgets. He spends it all and more as soon as it comes in.

-------

After I typed the above, we had an interesting conversation where he said that he's just following his feelings from moment to moment. The reason he acted so affectionate and warm after we decided to split, was because he felt he could relax because I'm moving out. So it basically meant nothing in relation to the R, it was just that he could enjoy it without any commitment attached to it.

I asked him if he realized how confusing that was to me, that he suddenly gave me everything I've been begging for as soon as we had agreed that I would move out. He said he didn't realize that was all I had wanted. (Now who's not listening?)

When I said that I didn't think that was fair to me, to pull me back in with affection when I had already asked him to please not to do that unless he really meant something by it, because it made it that much more painful for me to detach again afterwards, he looked at me and said, 'It sounds so different coming from your side.'

I honestly don't see where we go from here. He will not go to MC. He wants me to move out.

[1313]

Painter,
I hear so much of the exact same circular arguments in your R as I did in mine. It sounds literally like a cut and paste. My W too liked to spend, I was so walking on eggshells at the end that I hadn't even gone to the dentist so as to not be accused of spending and could keep the W's credit cards free and clear.

It's really hard to validate when you are being bombarded in such a way. You almost have to pick parts out to validate and not defend yourself on others.

My W finally went to MC, but it wasn't to try to work through anything - rather pretend to go through the motions while saying that there was nothing I could do to change her mind. I can think of an easier way to spend a grand. So if your H isn't interested, there's no reason to go unless you get somebody like Michele, who might be able to say something he'd listen to.

You're in a tough spot. If you leave, it will be much, much harder to reconcile. As I've found, if you have no reason to communicate such as kids - then that's kind of it. Well, you've seen what's been going on with me.

It's just so sad that money seems to be the root of the issue - whether or not that's an excuse I don't know. Sounds terribly familiar. Would you getting a full time job be a 180 he'd notice? If so, what good would come of it?

If indeed you are ready to let go, who knows. Maybe in leaving he'll really decide he misses you. I'm hearing a lot of positives coming from him in between the hurtful stuff. That's what I'd be focusing on if you want it to work. But the yelling rants have got to stop. I'm not sure how to diffuse that.

[Painter]

Hi 1313,

I think a lot of what comes out of the mouths of WS's is script... I was amazed when I read the quotes and then heard it from H. It's sort of fascinating, if it wasn't so sad and hurtful.

We actually saw a MC who had taken Michele's course, but she had a hard time with H. Not that I'm perfect, but I think I was more willing to put myself out there, learn and change. After he dropped out of MC, she said she is 100% pro-M, but wouldn't blame me if I left. It was mainly because of the way she saw him treat me in the sessions, and the things he admitted to doing outside of them. He really, really doesn't get that it is wrong - he just thinks that he deserves whatever he wants.

Some people get mean if you treat them nice. I am not a weak person and I don't let H get away with poor behavior, but I try to treat him like I would any person I care deeply for, and not get into a tit-for-tat mindset. I have tried to cultivate an 'us' attitude with compromising and working together, finding ways to communicate, but H is entrenched in a win/lose scenario and a power battle.

I am taking a break from packing - I started packing up boxes with stuff that can go to storage this morning and have been at it most of the day, and I'm exhausted.

My plan is to leave the area - I will go stay with family while saving for a downpayment so I can get myself a place to live. The job market is so much better there and I can probably get at least a temp job almost immediately.

My goal is to be fair with H when it comes to financials - I only want what is clearly mine of our possessions, one vehicle, and spousal support. I'm asking for quite a bit less than the guideline amount because I expect to make more money in the future than I do currently. There is really nothing else to get, there are no other assets to fight over. I have consulted with a very good and expensive D expert L several times, so I feel very good about it.

[roist]

Best of luck