Help!

[CWOL]

CWOL, yes this information is counter intuitive. If you will get past the fact DBing does not line up with every other forum on the board, and if you can accept what you are hearing, then you can start making progress. Most of the forums and books I read about M gave the same type of basic advice, which is okay if your W is not wayward in her heart. Once she reaches the rebellious stage, those soft soap techniques are useless. If you aren't sure what I mean by waywardness, I hope you'll read the link on Cadet's post, Help for the LBH who has a WW.

Yes, my wife is the definition of wayward. She's in an EA but it's because I did not completely kill the EA the first time around 17 years ago.

Can you post some links for threads where Detachment was able to get the marriage to piece again? (Give a guy some hope, please.) There was a thread but when I clicked the links were all dead.

[Thornton]

This is one of my favorites that I have copied/pasted:

Gday Steve

I have followed your post some but wanted to jump on to give you some thoughts. From my side I went through this seperation hell for over a year, I did not see my wife for fourteen months, was involved in three court cases (I was absent from them) and I would have talked to her four times in the four months leading up to these cases - I was living 15000kms away from her away.

Through the time of our seperation I was on the recieving end of some great verbal 'abuse' by my wife. She said she hated me, I was going to hell, I was untrustworthy, a liar, a minupulator, etc etc. Through the time she accused me of two affairs of which she said she had proof and a whole range of other things as well (none of which was true).

Mate my greatest shock in all this was a week before the final court case (which was going to last a minimum of three days in the court) my wife contacted me out completely unexpectantly and wanted to get back together. The end result is we are back together and moving along well.

Through this time I made every DB mistake that is possible to make. In the end the one thing I did well was detach from her and make her see what life by herself was going to be. What I am saying in the following is a combination of (1) myself being able to detach from the hell and emotional turmoil of seperation that you are going through and (2) from a number of conversations that I have with my wife since we have reconcilled. My story is spread across newcomers, seperated and surving but I have no idea how many pages back they now lurk.

Firstly from what you are written you have a very good chance of fixing things up in your sitch BUT you have to start detaching from this. There are some things that you have to learn that you cant control and stop fighting them. As hard as it is questions about OM, cell phone bills, etc are just going to alienate your wife and push her further away from you. One of the hardest things your going to have to do is suck these questions into you and not say anything to your wife. When things are getting too you - go to the gym, go for a walk or run or just vent here. Do NOT bring up your suspicions to your wife it is just going to highlight the reasons to herself why she 'left' you, and believe me at this stage she is looking for things to justify her actions to herself.

So a couple of things that I have found out from my wife that I am almost certain pertain to you sitch as well.

Your wife loves you and thinks about you continuously. They do not turn this off overnight, she is just very confused at the moment about her feelings.

Your wife misses you and the closeness that you had. She is trying to replace it at the moment with nights out with friends, etc. But watch mate, these friends will come and go and she will look at you as the constant in her life.

Your wife is angry at the moment and she will direct that anger to you. As the seperation progresses she will start to loose this anger and will likely push your buttons to get you into a fight so that she can then validate her feelings of anger towards you to herself. Remember it is always easy to put the blame on someone else other then the scarey step of accepting that some fault does lie with themselves.

Your wife does NOT hate you. She is confused about the feelings and the turmoil that she is experiancing at the moment. That confusion will come out in some truely aweful things that will be said but while she may 'think' she feels this, she doesnt. Accept the confusuion, dont fight it as you will only push her away and validate her feelings to herself.

Your wife remembers just about everything you say in this time. You dont have to keep reinforcong it in the hope that she 'hears it'. I am continually amazed at the things my wife is able to recollcet that were said in comments a year ago in the mdist of our darkest period. They do hear however at the moment they just are not ready to validate or accept what your saying.

Mate these are just a few of the points that I have picked up from my conversations with my wife (there are many more). In the end I did nothing spectactular, there are many far better 'dbers' on this board then I ever was or ever will be. The one thing I did was detach - in my mind my marriage was over and I got on with life. She then had to relaise what 'independance' truely was and to her credit and my good fortune she took the step of holding out the branch of reconcilliation and it was probably one of the bravest things she has done in her life.

You have many things going for you in your current sitch but you have to be patient and detach as best as you can. Now this does not mean turn away from your wife, ignore her, be mean, etc. It means look after you, look after your children and make sure you are happy and as much as you can project that happiness (my wife said that it was when she saw I had got my confidence back in myself and I stopped the begging, whining, 'acting' stuff that she got her attraction back to me). This will show more to her then any statements of 'look how much I have changed'.

In yourself you have to see that this whole db stuff is more then another 'tactic' on how to get your wife back. I think in honesty many on the board would say that this is how they are using it and get frustrated when they dont see immediate results. I know it took me quite a few months until I stopped using it as this 'tactic' and say it as a means of working on me and making me happy. In the end I would have been happy with me even if I had not reconciled.

This aint easy, in fact if your like me it is the hardest thing you will have to do in you life - it is something that I never want to go through again. You will make mistakes just remember it is not the end of the world when you do,

I wish you all the best and I hope for your success.

Andrew

[sandi2]

Can you post some links for threads where Detachment was able to get the marriage to piece again? (Give a guy some hope, please.) There was a thread but when I clicked the links were all dead.

You can look up mozza's list of success stories. I do not keep a log of the various links of situations. I understand you want hope, and we are trying to tell you what works and doesn't work, and you are basically asking us to prove it by showing you threads where this one thing got the couple back to piecing. Maybe it would help encourage you to search out the stories that are in the Piecing section.

Look, every author, program, and forum claims their techniques work. They will produce letters from people who say it worked for them. MWD does the same, in her DR book. At some point, you have got to decide for yourself. We can't continue trying to convince you that DBing is the route to take. You either go with it, or you don't. We have had others who came here wanting us to convince them why they should use the DB methods, and in the meantime they wasted valuable time they could have been applying DB to their situation. I suppose most LBS want to see some examples of happy endings. As you said, so many of the stories have been deleted from the archives. .

Personally, I do not remember one case where the LBS detached, correctly, that did not have positive results form him/her. However, I am not going to tell you that that one act, alone, brought the M to piecing. It plays a huge part, I believe, but it is not the only action the LBS needs to take. You can read countless stories of where the emotional attachment from the LBS helped to push the WS further away.

I hope I do not sound rude, b/c that is not my intentions.

[CWOL]

Personally, I do not remember one case where the LBS detached, correctly, that did not have positive results form him/her. However, I am not going to tell you that that one act, alone, brought the M to piecing. It plays a huge part, I believe, but it is not the only action the LBS needs to take. You can read countless stories of where the emotional attachment from the LBS helped to push the WS further away.

I hope I do not sound rude, b/c that is not my intentions.

No, you do not sound rude, quite the contrary to the other forums espousing their particular agenda. Most have a harsher response, "Our method works and if you don't like it, take a hike."

It is tough because it is very contrarian. I tried it last night and today. Last night our family went out to a sporting event which was my Xmas gift to my S. I bought some refreshments and brought it back. Then my WW wanted some other stuff for her and my son. Normally, I would have just gotten up and get it it for her. But this time, I resisted and silently sat there. My thinking is, she has diverted her income (however little) since January to her secret account away from our joint account, why should I pay for anything?

This morning, she made an unreasonable request about my son's sporting activity. I said, no, I'm not going to do that, why don't you do it instead. She was very surprised and a bit peeved, but she did it anyway. In the past, I would have just done it to avoid conflict. It did feel kind of good to make her take responsibility on these things.

I'm sure every newbie that comes onto this board has the same question about Detaching, if it would further drive away their WW. My WW is hanging on by a thread now, she's about to move out.

I helped facilitate her move out, based on advice I received that she would get a cold dose of what a 48 year old woman faces on her own. I'm planning to fight to keep her support payments as low as possible and for S to be with me 50% of the time.

[Vanilla]

OK= I think some mix ups about detaching and engagement. They are completely different things. Unrelated and they are not opposing strategies.

You can do both at the same time.

Detaching

Wonka has a thread on this I recommend it and it is in Cadets opening links. Detaching is for you and your feelings. It isn't being unattached to your WW. It is about attaching to yourself. Attaching to your feelings. You can still stand and you stand on your own two feet watching WW dash around like an out of control speedboat without concern.

It is letting go of the outcome, doing that which works to achieve your outcome. Its about you. So its fine if WW pays for your son and fine if she doesn't. You are doing that which works for you irrespective of WW, its the right thing. It is as if your emotions were tied to WW like being pulled behind WW emotional speed boat. WW is all over and you are dragged behind. Instead you are now on a surf board with your own destiny.

Engagement

is interaction with your WW. On your terms and in your way with detachment, ie irrespective of the outcome the engagement is on your terms..

Some sitches require friendship to repair others require NC. It very much depends on your sitch at a given time. Its up to you to determine which one is appropriate. My sitch is an abuse one and requires NC, in others NC would be more of the same damaging lack of interaction. For instance if for years the engagement was mono syllabic on your part then more of the same wont help you.

Engagement isn't appeasing nor punishing, it is insisting with a WW on being truly respected. It isn't game playing but open and honest communication. Authentic enforcement of your boundaries and strength for an LBS.

Do that which works.

Letting go

this is an interactive dynamic. Imaging two people pulling on a rope in opposite directions over a deep well of destruction. Then one or other or both may fall into the well. If one lets go there is no pulling and neither falls in the well. This can include a STFU response on occasions or simply setting boundaries. It can also be taking the higher ground and holding it. It is a strong non petty position. Seeing the big picture.

This isn't being unattached either. It can include the lighthouse stance and the Picnic by the Castle.

Moving on

This is not giving up either or being over, but emotionally saying I have things I need to do and places I need to go. I am no longer holding back on my life. I think this can include LRT. Neither is it giving up or being done.

Moving forward

making progress on your goals in all areas and observing how this affects your R.

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that's the way I see it, if a VET would care to correct me if I am off beam.

V

[Vanilla]

I helped facilitate her move out, based on advice I received that she would get a cold dose of what a 48 year old woman faces on her own. I'm planning to fight to keep her support payments as low as possible and for S to be with me 50% of the time.

-------------------------------------------------

This could be seen as punishment and is very alienating, it's a little bit blanket advice and very irreversible. Once done can not easily be undone. You can have the strategy of reality biting with in-house S too.

If you are saying I helped you move out because this is for me and in house S is not right for me that's one thing but to do so to give WW a shock punishment that's another and might not be helpful.

As a matter of fact under the law your spouse has legal rights to financial and other resources and access to her son. Some areas have no fault divorces and in others her A will impact this. You have the right and the obligation to put your case.

The cold shower is what life is like without the protection of your M and without you or your portion of the assets or income as a resource. Being strong with your boundaries and stance is important and the right detachment will help.

Punishing WW isn't detachment or doing that which works.

And yes this is counter intuitive.

OM is a symbol of your W waywardness not the cause. You have no control over your WW. Work on you and detach.

Thoughts

V

[CWOL]

This could be seen as punishment and is very alienating, it's a little bit blanket advice and very irreversible. Once done can not easily be undone. You can have the strategy of reality biting with in-house S too.

If you are saying I helped you move out because this is for me and in house S is not right for me that's one thing but to do so to give WW a shock punishment that's another and might not be helpful.

As a matter of fact under the law your spouse has legal rights to financial and other resources and access to her son. Some areas have no fault divorces and in others her A will impact this. You have the right and the obligation to put your case.

The cold shower is what life is like without the protection of your M and without you or your portion of the assets or income as a resource. Being strong with your boundaries and stance is important and the right detachment will help.

Punishing WW isn't detachment or doing that which works.

And yes this is counter intuitive.

OM is a symbol of your W waywardness not the cause. You have no control over your WW. Work on you and detach.

Thoughts

V

Not sure if you read through my thread, the OM was around three years before my marriage, 7 months after my marriage, and now. I don't think he is a symptom, but one of the causes. WW is in a fantasy thinking that OM is her one "true" love, even though he rejected her time and again. She emailed him for at least 9 years before I discovered it on D-Day.

Her moving out is her own plot, not mine. I offered in-house S but she rejected it point-blank. I only discovered her plans to Divorce and move out when the plans were solidifying. I talked to my attorney and others and they think rather than trying to stop her, it may be the best way to give her her "freedom" so she can experience life without my support. Hopefully she can evaluate it rationally, as I'm not trying to punish her.

[CWOL]

It is letting go of the outcome, doing that which works to achieve your outcome. Its about you. So its fine if WW pays for your son and fine if she doesn't. You are doing that which works for you irrespective of WW, its the right thing. It is as if your emotions were tied to WW like being pulled behind WW emotional speed boat. WW is all over and you are dragged behind. Instead you are now on a surf board with your own destiny.

How would Detachment work in the course of an active divorce lawsuit? My wife just started one, it is definitely going to be a tug of war from both sides. How would I practice Detachment if every decision I make affects WW, and every decision WW makes affects me? Both monetarily and also for custody? These philosophical questions seem so very zen. How do I apply it to real life? For example, if she's fighting with me on who pays for what or parenting decisions in the future, how do I Detach myself from that?

[Vanilla]

This could be seen as punishment and is very alienating, it's a little bit blanket advice and very irreversible. Once done can not easily be undone. You can have the strategy of reality biting with in-house S too.

If you are saying I helped you move out because this is for me and in house S is not right for me that's one thing but to do so to give WW a shock punishment that's another and might not be helpful.

As a matter of fact under the law your spouse has legal rights to financial and other resources and access to her son. Some areas have no fault divorces and in others her A will impact this. You have the right and the obligation to put your case.

The cold shower is what life is like without the protection of your M and without you or your portion of the assets or income as a resource. Being strong with your boundaries and stance is important and the right detachment will help.

Punishing WW isn't detachment or doing that which works.

And yes this is counter intuitive.

OM is a symbol of your W waywardness not the cause. You have no control over your WW. Work on you and detach.

Thoughts

V

Not sure if you read through my thread, the OM was around three years before my marriage, 7 months after my marriage, and now. I don't think he is a symptom, but one of the causes. WW is in a fantasy thinking that OM is her one "true" love, even though he rejected her time and again. She emailed him for at least 9 years before I discovered it on D-Day.

Her moving out is her own plot, not mine. I offered in-house S but she rejected it point-blank. I only discovered her plans to Divorce and move out when the plans were solidifying. I talked to my attorney and others and they think rather than trying to stop her, it may be the best way to give her her "freedom" so she can experience life without my support. Hopefully she can evaluate it rationally, as I'm not trying to punish her.

Yes I tread it and made notes.

V

[sandi2]

Here is a good description of DBing detachment.

Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)


PART II Detachment (found around here)

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
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