B's Bootcamp v3

[Vanilla]

Rosa linda

That is not my argument. W A is her choice of course.

When spouses live with compulsives and addicts they often decide enough, they walk mentally long before they have an A. Moving on from an addict isn't an easy thing.

I don't know enough about MLC to say, however often spouses of addicts pick transitional partners to give them strength. I have seen it often, sometimes it is friends or family that give the intervention. Sometimes the exposure of their children to addiction is enough. They choose to move on and need the support. They need out from their R. The reason is the addiction, that is the root of it.

Sometimes the addict picks up on that with a jolt, and knows the spouse has moved on. At that point they give up their addiction.

The addictive substance or the behaviour is as damaging as an A. Often the behaviour is MLC in the addict.

So after having lived with an addict in free fall, an S decided enough move on they say My partners A and EA was alcohol, that was his OW. There has been an A with an OW called addiction. It's over enough and LRT. The money you spend on this OW alcohol is depriving the family, the time you spend, the involvement with it. The lies, manipulation and lack of R, poor sex life, anger, putting you to bed drunk, clearing up your mess in the kitchen and bathroom. Your poor performance at work, and lack of memory for things. The inability to discuss anything to do with your OW and I know her name its addiction.

The addict gives up his OW called alcohol, gambling, porn, or drugs etc. Immediately his W is in MLC or wayward.

Because they decided to move on from an addict?

This W evaluated an A partner to transition. Her choice of course.

I sit in 12 step meetings I hear week after week of struggles and standing of those with partners who cheat with their addiction with money, resources, time, themselves, eventually spouses go enough, they mentally go no more.

Their addicts say no please don't cease to stand. I will change, I will give up my OP, my gambling, my drugs, my alcohol etc.

On other occasions loved ones walk in at crisis and say I can no longer cope alone, the damage is too much, the cash is going to the OP, the time and the attention is going to your addiction which is your OP.

So yes, the A or the EA is the spouses responsibility for them. The environment created is heavily influenced by the addict, if they remember what they do during their addictive phase.

An addict can't just say I gave up my addiction and the fact you my S moved on is being MLC or being wayward because the decision I made was to change. We spouses and loved ones of addicts are human after all, the addicts choice was their addiction. That was their OP of choice, their EA or their A.

If the recovering addict or compulsive treats their spouse as wayward, goes dark, blames and points to the spouse as wayward then it is my experience that the spouse will not only walk but run. I have seen posts here where the LBS has had an A, given up the A, their spouse moved on and then the LBS says wayward! Pot kettle black.

The recovering addict (who has my full support by the way, absolutely, it is one of the toughest roads) can work the steps, including atone, just as if the addiction is an A. And stop the blame. And in 12 step open meetings several addicts have chosen V as their sponsor, so yes I mentor addicts as well as their loved ones. You don't chose V as your sponsor unless you really want to give up your addiction! I work the steps. (This is called a sober sponsor).

Tough talk of the hurting spouse of the addict is likely to drive them away if they lived with addiction for a long time and they stood for a long time during the addiction.

This is my experience of it. Spouses who are not 12 stepping can really struggle, they really want out of living with an alcoholic or gambler or ........

I lived with a gambler for 4 years (also an alcoholic at the end) just suppose he decided to give up gambling and alcohol just as I had LRT and had a boyfriend. Then started telling me I am wayward or MLC.

Remember this W asked him to move out, asking an addict in full mode to move out creates guilt. I recollect telling my WH to move on in March 2014, when he sobered up he didn't remember any of it. I DB and his drinking got worse, his cash went to his addictions, it was only when I said no more cash WH left in a tirade of abuse, that was May 2015. I stand for M so am not wayward. However younger spouses feel able to LRT, they are not in my book wayward. They are just done.

So this behaviour is Ws, I do not condone it, I understand her position. She is the LBS with a WH whose OP is called addiction and she called time. The WH gave up his OP and wants his W back, because his W is LRT then she is MLC or Wayward?

I think it likely she moved on and was LRT, with the wrong A partner. Such spouses are vulnerable.

From my understanding this M has an excellent chance of R.

why?

Spouses of addicts don't hang on this long unless there is real love involved.

Linda

both need repair and to DB. At present there is great sobriety and I offer my full support on this. I really believe this M can repair if there is true compassion by both. There is true love in this.

I am a romantic, and have seen this too.

V

[Vanilla]

B

I am more than comfortable being your online sober mentor, any time you need. I will do my very best with 12 steps with you as required.

I internet promise.

I am not blaming you for your W behaviour, her A or EA is her choice over which you had no control. If there comes an appropriate time then she may benefit from Alanon. If it read that way that wasn't my intention.

I can not analyse if your W is in MLC, although I do think she was LRT before she had her fling. I think as a result of her anger.

Hugs

V

[Bfice3]

Vanilla and Rosa, unfortunately I still don't have a lot of time to sit down and read and think and make a good response. But I do want to take a few seconds to let you know I see the discussion and I appreciate both of your viewpoints. I do think that my WW may be in the throws of MLC, however I don't know enough to be able to say. I also don't know if the new evidence I found is really proof of a sexual affair, but its definitely proof of a good solid EA. Whatever, its immaterial. I agree about the affair being a symptom...I understand it and ultimately I need to be focused on myself and not her.

That leads me to the message I came here to right. What I got when I read Vanilla's message yesterday was simply that I was regressing...I have been trying to control things...I have still not accepted my powerlessness...I have not truly embraced or learned humility...

I have been full of shame...and full of self-doubt...and self-loathing...woe is me...poor pitiful me. And though, I have remained sober for the past 4 months, my inability to progress into the acceptance of my situation has stalled me quite a bit.

It's so weird writing this all out...because logically when I sit down and quickly type like this I am able to see or dictate my issues...yet somehow there is this divide that occurs when I start to act, when I move into being...I don't have the words to accurately describe...but its like I will stand up from this laptop and become blind immediately.

Vanilla, yes please, I would love to have an online contact to discuss these issues. I need to come back and have a serious discussion about addiction, because, I think alcohol is only one of a series of destructive habits I have that I have apparently been doing to myself since before I was a teenager. In other words...I recognize alcohol has been a problem for me...and I don't want to minimize the way I let it control so many of my actions...however, even sober I still find ways to self-medicate...or avoid reality.

Lastly...I want to say, the big thing. The things that made me break down from Vanilla's post is the fact that I think I may have realized for the first time...truly...that the faults in my marriage really do stem from me in many ways. Yes, my WW has many faults that I and my children can see. But...so do I. And, I need to worry less about her faults. Worry less about who's to blame. Worry less about why she is doing this...and I need to simply focus on me. I know it keeps getting said here over and over...and I will probably forget it over and over...but I need to accept my faults...and openly admit and address them...or else I will never be able to heal and will be doomed to repeat this scenario.

So, thank you both. And I will find time tomorrow to re-read a lot of this and make quotes and share more. But I just wanted to take a quick few minutes to respond. I hope you both have a great weekend for what's left of it, and thank you again for the honest words and thoughtful responses!

B-

[Cadet]

Vanilla

The only thing I disagree about is the definition of wayward.
This is when someone starts to date or have a relationship while still married or in another relationship.
V - of course you are not wayward as you are not in another relationship.

My suggestion is to get divorced first.

[Vanilla]

Cadet

Yes I do agree that's how ideally it should be, what do you do if you can't get a D but are truly S?

My WH is going to make me wait 5 years, on the basis I will be worth more when we do D. I may never see or hear from him again. I filed for D which he did not acknowledge, he then cross filed which I did. If I date (not saying I will, although I may in the next five years) then I definitely will not consider myself wayward.

In Ireland (RD) it takes 5 years. In some parts of the world or in some faiths there is no D for women.

To my mind once there is S and a couple are living apart, no intention to R, then LRT sets in.

If your SO tells you get lost, no R, then one is free to date in my book. They sacked you as their partner. Often in addiction this happens, a SSM.

Wayward to me is an out of control EA or PA or series usually with someone in an M or R, or out hunting for a liaison. It implies need and addiction without confirmation of S. Even living together.

B we will work out a resolution, whatever happens and I am reluctant to speak for the amazing Rosa Linda although her generosity of spirit is apparent, I suggest we both offer you support in this.

You are doing fine, it sounds to me step one is carved and climbed on.

V

[Vanilla]

You ok B?

V

[Bfice3]

Hey Vanilla, And RosaLinda, and anyone else following along or would like to respond.

Am I okay? I don't know. I guess I can say yes. Today is officially 4 months sober. And interestingly I got a very nice text message from a friend. He's a great guy who is the dad in one of our old married friends families...they have a S(9) in our son's class and a D(11) in our daughters class. He and I went to the Daddy Daughter dance together with our daughters on Saturday, and we had a good time. I mentioned in passing at dinner that today was going to be my 4 month sobriety date, and he remembered and sent me a very nice text this morning. It really went a long way to put me in a very good mood. I was very appreciative and told him so.

So, that was good. The weather is nice today, and that's good too. I've been to two AA meetings in as many days now, and that was very good. I had a really great conversation with an old guy Mike last night and it was very comforting.

I'm going to kind of change tack here, and journal, but if everyone is okay, I going to make this about me...and not really my MR or lack there of.

I think I mentioned that I've been seeing this codependency therapist...and its really helping to open my eyes. Vanilla, your first post was also a great reminder. So many things are converging and really, I'm seeing that my focus just has to be on me. After all, I am the only thing I can have any control over.

What I've learned. I am a very flawed individual that has been carrying around a lot of pain for a very long time. My parents got divorced when I was 3 years old (my brother was a year old or less). My dad I believe was a drug addict amongst other issues. He left and never came back. I do have a memory of going bowling with him and I know that was in Texas so I would have had to have been in either kindergarten or 1st grade. I also have a memory where he came for my brother and I's birthdays (2 days apart) when I was in the 2nd grade in Louisiana. He brought a remote control airplane on a line that you spin in a circle and I crashed it in a basketball goal. And...that was the last time I ever saw him. I do know his name. And I have searched online a number of times, and I think he still lives in Texas, but really not certain. He hasn't made any contact at all over the years, no letters, no phone calls, nothing. My brother actually has zero memories of him at all.

In addition to him being absent, no one on my biological fathers side of the family ever was a part of our family ever. I never met or really even know if he has/had brothers, sisters, parents, etc. At one point, somehow it came out that perhaps he had a daughter in a 2nd or 3rd marriage.

So that covers half of my family history. I always felt it like a huge hole in my soul. Just this giant void that, frankly, had to be ignored, because it was taboo to speak about it in front of my Mom or Step-dad or Grandmother. My brother and I have our fathers last name...which is weird isn't it? (I'm literally just now for the very first time asking that question.) That is weird. I'm pretty sure my mom went back to using her maiden name and then when I was in 4th or 5th grade she got re-married and took that name. But my brother and I always had our fathers name. I don't know...maybe that's normal. But the whole identity of being a male with my last name was this thing that was a stigma growing up (in my head). My life, my family, and my identity, as I made friends and acquaintances growing up, was always difficult to describe or be honest about. It became easier to simply have a 'story' to tell people that was simple to explain and digest. But, without realizing it, I was making that void worse.

So, here's an irony that I now have a very small and uncelebrated amount of pride. My father-in-law is big into genealogy and heritage and as such he does this ancestry.com thing all the time. Well, a couple of years ago he started adding or searching for things about my family. And guess what?

This is so freaking weird.

The man that was a giant hole in my life...the most obvious missing person in my life, my father...well...apparently there is exists a true lineage of males from (now) my son, through me, on to my father, his father, and his father, and his father, and directly on until around A.D. 1300 in England!?!?#$!?! Wait...wtf? Seriously? Yes. The men in my family have literally had a son every single generation for over 700 years and handed their name down father to son.

I don't know...I've told two different 'friends' about that and they were both less than impressed. And ultimately, it means nothing...but to me...in a weird way, it meant everything, and yet, was again at the same just another reminder at how messed up my personal identity is.

I'm going to stop this post now because every thing is being traced in red.

[Bfice3]

I don't know who will be reading this, but this is therapeutic for me, so I'm going to continue...

So, above I discussed my biological father.

Now, I'm going to go into my mom. I was raised by mom as single mother and have a lot memory's of her as that. Arguably, I could even say that her identity never really moved past being a single mother even after she re-married. She married my step-dad when I was in about 4th grade. She was a Baylor graduate, speech pathologist. My step-dad was a potential high school graduate who worked at GM as a factory worker all his life. They were oil and water, but who knows, maybe it worked.

My mom's parents divorced I think all through the 1980's. By all accounts they had a very long, drawn out painful divorce. The end result being my mom and her mom on one side, with my mom's sister and my mom's dad on the other side. For a while, like maybe 3 years, there was a period where we (my brother and I) would go to live at my aunt's house for a week or two during the summer. Probably age 6-8 or something. But beyond that there was zero contact with my aunt or her sons until I was 18. Similar situation with my mom's dad. I have a few memories of seeing him when I was young, but then nothing for well over a decade.

The thing about all of this isolation or separation is that after growing up like that...and experiencing it...even when I would see my grandfather many years later, I felt many strong emotions of love towards him, but at the same time there was now this huge, awkward, wall or distance that existed. I wanted to love him. I wanted to know and respect him. But something inside me told me not to get too close. And, so I never did. As I got older, I knew that I was an adult and I had a choice to interact with my family members who had been absent so much in my life. And that if I didn't, then it was me who wasn't doing it. But still...something inside of me always felt self-pity...and would scream, "They never loved me. They were never there for me. Why should I be there for them now?"

My aunt. My mom's sister. Had two sons. Each had their own biological father, and they were both raised, and we were all told, that a third man (who coincidentally had the same first name as the 2nd son) was both of their biological fathers. The only reason I know this, is because at some point, my mom took it upon herself to bring her nephew, my cousin, to our house and tell him this in front of all of us.

My grandmother. My mom's mom. This lady. I love her to death, but she was tough as nails. She scared me some as a kid. She was a fantastic cook and to this day I will swear up and down that she could put out the very best Thanksgiving Day spread that any of you have ever had. She was a poor as dirt (self-admitted) family and earned everything she ever had working as a woman in a man's world. We always thought she was 'rich' because she had a swimming pool and lived on a country club. My grandmother was the 'matriarch' of our family and would use her will and money as a means to control people. I do think she genuinely loved me, but her love often came with rules. She was a good woman. A tough woman. But, she definitely contributed to many of my mom's issues and also directly to my own. She was very active in our lives even though she lived 4 hours away. I even went to live with her for about a year in high school.

My step-dad. Jim. That's all anyone ever called him. He was always just Jim. He had tattoos and that was always looked down upon. He cussed a lot, was angry a lot, and wasn't really a very good role model in many regards. However, he was there. He was there for my whole life. He just passed away this past November and I was the only person there who stood up and spoke at his passing. After college he would start to refer to me as 'son' when saying goodbye on the phone, and I would call him on 'Father's Day' which I think he liked. Growing up I made to feel that Jim was inferior by my mom and grandmother (I'm guessing). But, now, in counseling and reflecting back, I'm starting to wonder if Jim may have actually been one of the more solid figures that I had in my life. My mom and grandmother who I so revered...in an almost deity like way...were infallible and therefore it had to be this rough-around-the-edges blue-collar man with tattoos that was the bad guy.

Okay.

I guess that's enough for right now. I apologize again if this is going in a frowned upon direction. But for me, this is the struggle I'm working through. I am breaking down my life in all aspects, all the way down to the very idea and understanding of what it means to be in existence...and where I end up...I don't know. But, hopefully I'll know who I am, what I want, and where I want to go.

I'm feeling compelled to say this, so I will...I love you all who read and respond to this.

[Bfice3]

----Sidebar Question----

1.) I want to send my wife a message and suggest that we move to a true 50% custody. I want to say that if we switch to week by week...she has the kids for 7 days, and then I get the kids for 7 days...that everyone's life will actually be easier.

Currently, there are two transitions every week so the kids have to be packed up and ready to switch twice every week. This is time consuming and emotionally draining on the kids.

Not to mention that if we switch to week-by-week then both my wife and I will have a week where we can focus on the kids and do all kid related activities and then during the following week catch up on all the personal things we need to focus on. I don't know, for me at least, it feels like this constant transition is making it difficult for me to find a solid routine, and if its hard for me, its got to be hard on the kids.

So...the question to you all is, how would you recommend I approach this? Just an email written out just like above?

[Thornton]

You're putting in some awesome work, B.

This is so cool to see. I really think if you can keep this up, exploring yourself and what defines you as a man, that you will continue to grow and ultimately become happy. And remember, happiness attracts more happiness.

Well done!