surrealism is not my style

[Zues126]

C, I went through almost everything you're feeling, as have many others. What I want you to realize is that just as we say WAS's follow a 'script', LBS's follow a 'script' as well. I'll have to search it up out of the archives later, but in the middle of is judgement of WAS's behavior and diagnosing their personality, family of origin, and listing out every way in which they were bad people to us. This isn't the DB method.

If you haven't read my last handful of posts on Julie H's threads please do so now. Please confirm that you've read them, I'd really think they will help show you're not alone, but also to help keep perspective.

He doesn't understand why I won't even entertain the thought that I would be happier without him. Uhhh, wedding vows? Nothing?

Well, I still am DBing. But yes, at some point I won't. I'm sure I'll know when to give up.

Look at these two sentences. Any contradiction there? You were married for over 25 years? Be still. It's ok to detach. It's ok to let your love fade away. It's ok to move forward with your life in every way except romantically. But you keep DBing. "Some Point" shouldn't be in your thoughts right now. You have a long way to go, and the signing of a divorce is not the finish line.

He just stubbornly plays the same tune...that I don't like him, never appreciated him, that he made me miserable. I've given up on defending my feelings; that I made myself miserable, that I liked and loved him almost more than life itself. Pointless.

I have continued to validate and try to be understanding when he talks. But he didn't even call to let me know he wasn't going to follow through with what he said? And then acted like it was no big thing?

Who is this person?

On Julie's threads I told you who this person is. My question is this: How do you validate H when he says those things in bold?

In the sentences that follow you say that you have given up defending your feelings as that is pointless, and you refer to him as stubborn. If you feel this way you can't possibly be validating these statements well. Don't you see that you have one narrative based on your perspective and feelings, but he has another one that is equally true based on his perspective or feelings. And that he's basically telling you EXACTLY what he needs to change to be married to you and you're rolling your eyes at it and calling him stubborn, and then complaining that he left? Who's stubborn here? Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?

It's far too easy to dismiss his narrative as wrong because he's the bad one that left, and you're the righteous one on the forums, so he's obviously wrong...but he's NOT. So please, show me you're not the stubborn one. I've got a ***Special Assignment*** for you. Please write out a few paragraphs explaining, from WAH's point of view, why he had to leave (without letting your own narrative of explanations, debates, or disagreements interfering). Make me cry for his pain and agree that he had to create some space for self preservation.


PS- is H in an active affair? I can't recall and don't have time to dig. Thanks and hang in C.

[Zues126]

I want to edit my assignment. I want three parts:

1. What H tells you when he's explaining why he has to leave

2. Your responses to why that's wrong or doesn't make sense.

3. What you think his responses to your responses would be.

You've already got a start on this. You've listed a lot of what he says to you again and again. Flesh this out. And you've started telling us how you look at it, but flesh that out as well. But then #3...this is tough. Give it some thought and see what you come up with. I can help with this as well, but I want you to take it as far as you can first.

Thanks C.

[ciluzen]

C, I went through almost everything you're feeling, as have many others. What I want you to realize is that just as we say WAS's follow a 'script', LBS's follow a 'script' as well. I'll have to search it up out of the archives later, but in the middle of is judgement of WAS's behavior and diagnosing their personality, family of origin, and listing out every way in which they were bad people to us. This isn't the DB method.

Zues, I will do your assignment in a separate post after the Super Bowl, but for now I feel that I should answer or clarify things in this post. I don't see anything "bad" in my H...except the fact that he chose to at the very least, cross some marital boundaries and form an EA with a mutual friend in hi employ. My list was more to show all of the stresses that I am aware of that are affecting him right now. I was also one.

If you haven't read my last handful of posts on Julie H's threads please do so now. Please confirm that you've read them, I'd really think they will help show you're not alone, but also to help keep perspective.

I will look them up tonight.

He doesn't understand why I won't even entertain the thought that I would be happier without him. Uhhh, wedding vows? Nothing?

Well, I still am DBing. But yes, at some point I won't. I'm sure I'll know when to give up.

Look at these two sentences. Any contradiction there? You were married for over 25 years? Be still. It's ok to detach. It's ok to let your love fade away. It's ok to move forward with your life in every way except romantically. But you keep DBing. "Some Point" shouldn't be in your thoughts right now. You have a long way to go, and the signing of a divorce is not the finish line.

I guess I realize that. Venting. It has really only been a few months since separation, but for someone who usually procrastinates, he is moving pretty fast.

He just stubbornly plays the same tune...that I don't like him, never appreciated him, that he made me miserable. I've given up on defending my feelings; that I made myself miserable, that I liked and loved him almost more than life itself. Pointless.

I have continued to validate and try to be understanding when he talks. But he didn't even call to let me know he wasn't going to follow through with what he said? And then acted like it was no big thing?

Who is this person?

On Julie's threads I told you who this person is. My question is this: How do you validate H when he says those things in bold?

Well, as I've said in the posts surrounding the D filing...I fell apart. Fell back into asking why and asking him to please not do this. My validation was more in our calmer conversations, a few days later when I could pull it together. "I understand that my actions made you feel that I didn't like you, that I didn't appreciate you. I wish I could go back and change my behavior." But I will admit, during the emotional talks, I was trying more to explain why. I know better, but arrgh! Yes, it once again is me telling him he's wrong.

In the sentences that follow you say that you have given up defending your feelings as that is pointless, and you refer to him as stubborn. If you feel this way you can't possibly be validating these statements well. Don't you see that you have one narrative based on your perspective and feelings, but he has another one that is equally true based on his perspective or feelings. And that he's basically telling you EXACTLY what he needs to change to be married to you and you're rolling your eyes at it and calling him stubborn, and then complaining that he left? Who's stubborn here? Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?

I actually have not voiced my feeling that he's stubborn. I also realize that I am stubborn in that I have not stopped taking offense at his leaving. I do understand it, I just don't like it. And I'm stubborn in that I don't want another guy...just him. It hurts to be rejected on this scale. It hurts even more that he acts so friendly with me; meeting my eye contact, smiling, joking with me, buying me lunch, but then nothing.

It's far too easy to dismiss his narrative as wrong because he's the bad one that left, and you're the righteous one on the forums, so he's obviously wrong...but he's NOT. So please, show me you're not the stubborn one. I've got a ***Special Assignment*** for you. Please write out a few paragraphs explaining, from WAH's point of view, why he had to leave (without letting your own narrative of explanations, debates, or disagreements interfering). Make me cry for his pain and agree that he had to create some space for self preservation.

I don't feel that he is bad at all...it just hurts that he chose to go to someone else to make himself happy and that I responded in such a way to drive him further away. I own that. I don't feel righteous, I feel scared and hurt. I'm trying my best to make sense of it all. I'm also trying to not be so emotionally reactive. But dry spells with no communication, then positive interaction with no R talk leave me in a questioning and emotionally vulnerable state. I don't know what kind of state he's in. He's always been very good at putting on a different face for others no matter what he feels inside, although sometimes he seems to try a little too hard to be seen as happy and fun. I know he just wants to be friends (or he said he did) because we still have to parent our adult children, but its hard to be friends with someone you are attracted to in EVERY way.


PS- is H in an active affair? I can't recall and don't have time to dig.

I actually don't know. His EA person has told me she doesn't want to step on any toes, but his activities seem to be more with her entire family (her H included) now, where before he was alone with her, texting, and calling often.

Thanks and hang in C.

[Flight]

Zues, Not to hijaack the thread, but I would like to get clarification on your opinion of validation. When the spouse starts talking about their re-invented history and starts spewing about "all the years of hell you put me through" and "I was a marty just faking it for years to try and save my marriage until I realized I just have to move on", "what about all YOU did that caused me to have an affair", "you haven't changed, you still can't see how this is all about you and has nothing do to with my affair. The relationship was over long before I found someone else"

So, there are two schools of thought there. One is you don't stand for nonsense and tell them something along the lines of, "I don't accept your altered version of history and won't listen to what you are trying to use to justify your unethical choices". And the other is validation of some kind.

The question is, which way is correct and how is that verbalized? If validation is your answer, what are examples of a few things you think you should say?

[Zues126]

C- I understand you haven't voiced your responses...and if you did he wouldn't react well. It's more of an exercise about what his narrative would be if he was able to express himself maturely.

Maybe skip 1-2 and just focus on that. What would his feelings be in response to this:

that I made myself miserable, that I liked and loved him almost more than life itself.

[Zues126]

Zues, Not to hijaack the thread, but I would like to get clarification on your opinion of validation. When the spouse starts talking about their re-invented history and starts spewing about "all the years of hell you put me through" and "I was a marty just faking it for years to try and save my marriage until I realized I just have to move on", "what about all YOU did that caused me to have an affair", "you haven't changed, you still can't see how this is all about you and has nothing do to with my affair. The relationship was over long before I found someone else"

So, there are two schools of thought there. One is you don't stand for nonsense and tell them something along the lines of, "I don't accept your altered version of history and won't listen to what you are trying to use to justify your unethical choices". And the other is validation of some kind.

The question is, which way is correct and how is that verbalized? If validation is your answer, what are examples of a few things you think you should say?

Great question.

Personally I think you need to do both. Validate and boundary set/truth dart. They don't have to conflict.

The thing is, validation is all about acknowledging the other person's point of view. That is it. The challenge for LBS's is we really don't. But we expect them to understand and agree with ours. Seek not to be understood, but to understand. Someone has to step up and lead the way. And what I've learned is that when people feel understood and acknowledged, they feel so grateful and appreciative of that they want to reciprocate.

Take an exchange I had last week between me and my manager. Now, he is a great manager, and I am a great employee.


The background needed: I am a star employee that hit my goals in 2015 in year 1 on the team
The topic: Me being given a verbal warning for missing January goals

My manager and I had a scheduled 1:1. He spent most of the time working with me on my game plan, helping where he could, probing me and challenging my plans in certain areas, getting involved in a few spots to assist, and giving me feedback on what my plan was. This was all done in a respectful way. Then at the end he brought up the verbal warning.

He did it almost apologetically. He started by telling me he understood how things had played out. He acknowledged that I had gone through a lot in Nov/Dec with custody battles and divorce, and that he knew that impacted me. He also understood that the entire market was challenged during seasonality, and that being in a longer sales cycle that operates on pipeline, these factors created a storm in which poor results were hard to avoid.

Before he could even get to the part where he held me accountable for my actions, I objected. I told him that we all have personal lives, but that I was a professional, and I make no excuses for my management of my assignment. I told him that while business slowed down, I didn't do my part to anticipate the decrease in business and take enough proactive measures to offset the dip. I said I appreciated his consideration, but that I have a responsibility to my customers, my team, my company, and our shareholders, and I hold myself fully responsible for an unacceptable performance.

Funny, when you have a healthy debate both people end up saying what they think the other person should have said.

Suppose my boss had led by telling me that I had a responsibility to my team and company, that I should've been more proactive, that I am fully responsible for my performance...how do you think that would've flown? Most employees would've responded defensively (even though he's right) and even though I would've agreed, I would've left thinking he was a dick. Instead I am more appreciative of his leadership than ever and don't want to let him down.

So, flight...there's an example of how to validate and set boundaries. My boss has to deliver the verbal warning, he can't keep me on the team indefinitely if I don't perform, he can't allow me to spew excuses and keep missing targets...but the best way to get that is to validate all of the things that contributed to me being in that spot.

Same way, when a WAS is talking about why they left, or why they cheated...while that isn't appropriate behavior, if we go right to attacking and condemning the behavior and trying to show them why they're wrong and we're right, nothing good comes out of it. Their defenses flare up, and we only help them dig in their heels. But if we can validate all of the reasons WHY they felt they had to leave, while still maintaining our boundaries and beliefs...THAT is the balance we should look for.

As to when to do which, when to truth dart, when to validate, etc...that is more complicated. But I'll tell you this- truth darting should be done sparingly...and I don't think it should be done at all until there has been a foundation of serious validating. You have to establish in their minds that you know their mind, you know their feelings, and you care...then maybe they'll give some respect to what you say, even if they don't like it initially.

So truth darting has to follow validation. And in order to validate you have to see past your side of the debate. That's very, very hard for us LBS's when we're in so much pain. But it is critical and why I harp so hard on this topic.

[ciluzen]

C- I understand you haven't voiced your responses...and if you did he wouldn't react well. It's more of an exercise about what his narrative would be if he was able to express himself maturely.

Maybe skip 1-2 and just focus on that. What would his feelings be in response to this:

that I made myself miserable, that I liked and loved him almost more than life itself.

Actually, this I have voiced, in response to what he has said. Before I learned to not have R talks, and also when I "fell apart" and had R talks anyway (he initiated some) after he filed, I heard again how he made me miserable. I told him that I made me miserable, not him. He actually made me happy. His response? No! You didn't like me and I made you miserable. There is nothing wrong with you, we are too different. There is someone out there that will be perfect for you, but I'm not your guy. You don't like me.
I will do your assignment. There has been a lot of discussion between us. No, I don't always truly validate his feelings. It is difficult to do when he tells me how he thinks I feel about him as if it is a fact. It is also hard to do when he tells me I don't need to change...that I am a nice person.
But I believe I will just agree with him from now on. Yes, I see how I made you feel that I didn't like you(no but). You're right, I can see how my actions made you feel unappreciated. That I didn't show you how much I appreciated the things you did for me. I see that you viewed our differences as too big to overcome or ignore. I understand that you don't want me to change my personality(again, no but).
Again, I will do the assignment. I have done some similar things in my journal, trying to learn how we got to this place. I have a lot to think about.

[Zues126]

More posts on Julie's thread now.

[ciluzen]

So, Zues, I did some thinking. Some very painful thinking. One of the things H had said was that he had felt for a long time that I didn't like him. So I tried very hard to go way back when thinking about my behavior towards him...and I am ashamed of what I have come to realize.
I guess what I ended up doing last night was taking things he's said over the years and coming up with "his story" from his lips, his voice. No mind reading, believe it or not.

H is speaking.

I tried so hard to make her happy. She complained about being a SAHM, but didn't appreciate how hard I worked to allow that. The women I work with would love to have that opportunity.

She didn't enjoy the house we had on a lake...wanted her own house, not a rental. But I loved the lake, the fun, the neighbors, the location. I cried when we left.

I knew she loved horses and found her a horse, but she didn't want to board it. She wanted to have a house to keep it at. So I paid an architect that we liked to design our dream home. But I kept trying to find a place to just buy because I'd watched my parents build their home and didn't want to go through the stress or cost. She just kept saying, "we can do this!" even though I told her it scared me to death.

We built the house and then she complained about our neighbors, and how she couldn't make friends, and how the school functioned. She hardly ever rode the horses. She became very controlling and overly involved with the children. She was so worried about what people thought of her that if I showed signs of affection at school or sports functions, she pushed me away and told me to stop.

She doesn't like me or appreciate me.

I really enjoy the people I work with...they are like family now. I thought Ciluzen liked them, too. We've even become close to their friends and our group ski trips, group camping trips, and get togethers are so much fun! But my wife is not happy. She doesn't want to go ski much anymore, even if I ask her to just come up and read in the lodge so she can be with us. She has started complaining about how I don't pay attention to her in a group...but I enjoy having fun with everyone!

She just doesn't like anything about me. I need to make myself happy...despite how she feels.

Now she watches me like a hawk when I'm around other women. If I smile too much at them, she waits til everyone is gone and attacks me...tells me everything I did wrong...how she feels. She cries and makes me feel awful. Every time I try to have fun.

I work too hard to be treated like this when I'm trying to relax.

I come home to hear her fighting with the kids about homework. She tries to put healthy food in front of me...I don't always like it and tell her, but then she just prepares it differently the next time and asks me if I like it now. I don't like it! And she chatters on and on about inane stuff or kids I don't know, or high school gossip...I've had people talking all day to me. I want to relax! She never listens to me!

She doesn't like me.

I take 2 weeks off to organize a great vacation with friends and family, and once again, I don't pay enough attention to her. She confronts me on vacation and ruins it for me. Just ruins it. That is the last time I will take her with me on vacation. I'll go with friends. And now I come home from vacations to more tears and fighting. What's the point?

No matter what I do to try to be happy, she will cry about how it hurts her.I don't want to hurt her, but I want to be happy.

I know its going to be a problem, but I found a great deal on a vacation property.I have some friends and family to share the cost. I'm getting it, no matter what she says.
Now its every weekend...she shuts herself in the room at the property because...I don't know or even care why. I always go check on her and there's tears and things I did wrong. I try to make it up to her, but its getting really difficult. I'm drained.

She's jealous of my friend. This friend is...a friend. She's fun and brings great people into my life. She's busy and has a lot of things to talk about. I love having people in my life. I love big groups.The more the merrier. But why do I have to suffer for upsetting my W every time!? Why can't she just try to have fun? Now she says none of these people are her friends, they're all mine! Well, I make an effort! I call and text and push the get togethers! Why can't she just appreciate all she has? All I have given her?

I have a lot of stress in my life and I don't need this. My W has not been able to come up to the vacation home due to our D's wedding prep, and it has been peaceful and fun. The few times she did come up? Same issues.

I don't care anymore. I'm done. I don't need her. She doesn't like me. I can't make her happy. I don't think I like her anymore. She doesn't need to change because I'm done.I'm sure there is some guy out there for her that she will enjoy, but its not me. She hasn't liked me in a long time.


So, there you go, Zues. Not sure if this M is salvagable. I've been making changes, but for him to trust that I now know how bad my behavior was and actually do it? That's a big leap of faith for him. I have emotionally tortured him, without fully realizing it, for years.

I do love him, and very much like him. But my behavior, which was awful, appeared to say the opposite. My feelings about myself and where I should be and who I should be, made me act out. Sorry, at this point, doesn't quite cut it.

[Zues126]

Wow, what a post C. Very powerful. From here it is pretty straight forward.

Think about what your 180s are based on your behavior in the M.
Make that your mission, to demonstrate those 180s in all you do in your life (not just for H)
If there are hang-ups that make doing those things difficult, there is no better time to grow than now.

I heard again how he made me miserable. I told him that I made me miserable, not him. He actually made me happy. His response? No! You didn't like me and I made you miserable. There is nothing wrong with you, we are too different. There is someone out there that will be perfect for you, but I'm not your guy. You don't like me. ..No, I don't always truly validate his feelings. It is difficult to do when he tells me how he thinks I feel about him as if it is a fact. It is also hard to do when he tells me I don't need to change...that I am a nice person.

This is so powerful. You later pick this up, but he is not, actually, telling you how you feel as fact. He is telling you how HE feels. HE FEELS that he was insufficient to make you happy because he never felt you express your happiness to him. HE FEELS you don't need to change because he doesn't care anymore, or because he gives up and accepts that it's him with the problems but either way he doesn't like it anymore. Those feelings you can validate.

Great post C. I will read again later. Pretty profound stuff.