In the Arena III- Becoming Hilariously Pleased

[Fogg]

Cant say I have the answer because I've only had 1 relationship and I neglected it sometimes, smothered it others and then did both during some time also.

I don't think you would need to have a perfect match of how much space a persons needs. I think its more both people would be comfortable in their own skins and love their selves enough to give the other person whatever they wanted during that time. Each would enjoy the time together and the time apart. So if my S wanted to go out with their friends for the night I wouldn't take it as personal like she didn't want to be with me. Again, not sure how that fills in when someone has emotional needs being unmet. Maybe the trick is that most of our emotional needs needs to come from ourselves and the partner provides the extra that tops us off instead of filling us completely up.

[2ltl2lt]

Jelly

I can give you my (a mans) perspective. For me, the best balance of having space and being together is always changing. Some days you may want to lie in bed together for as long as possible and other days you may want to jump up and take the world head on. Most married men I know seem like they can't get far enough away from their wives for as long as possible. And most married women I know seem like they always want their husbands around.

I think it is inherent in men to want to have their own life outside of marriage for the most part. I don't really see it as much in women. (Until of course they run WW on you) . Of course this is skewed logic from a manly mans perspective, I'm just telling you what I have seen. For me and my marriage, W and I worked together for a long time and that is when she says she was most happy with me. I sometimes felt like we were together all the time and needed a break from each other. As you bring kids into the picture other things change. The focus is all on them and the husband can get away more. Not that that is a good thing either.

I don't think there is any such thing as a perfect match so you can dismiss that notion out of hand. That is why it's called a relationship, you must relate to the other and work together to find what works best for both. Good discussion.

[ciluzen]

I will put this on the Itinerary so every one knows.

1.All Blacks Game
2. Hobbiton
3. Middle Earth
4. Waiheke Island wine tour
5. Elvish women for dday - hmmmm I need to research this one.

Anymore suggestions for the itinerary? What else do you lovely people know about my awesome country?

All of those things on the itinerary, plus isn't there a beach that has some really cool big round boulders there? Just remember that from someone else's trip. Would love to visit you, JB!

[isittoolate]

Mt Tongariro National Park
90 mile Beach
Frank Josef Glacier
Milford Sound...I've been to them all and more....3 weeks in NZ 8 years ago

[JellyB]

Mt Tongariro National Park
90 mile Beach
Frank Josef Glacier
Milford Sound...I've been to them all and more....3 weeks in NZ 8 years ago

Going on the list Is , definitely! Did you enjoy your time here? What were your impressions.

[isittoolate]

Hi JB

One of the best holidays of my life (and W).

Flew to Christchurch, hired a camper van and spent about 2 weeks touring South Island and half a week in the North. Then stayed with friends in Auckland . I remember having dinner in the Sky Tower revolving restaurant...another highlight.

W was pregnant ( 2 months) with first son so it was 12 years ago not 8! We didn't get as much tramping done as we would have liked because she was pregnant.

Sigh ......

[JellyB]

Thank you for the responses Fogg and @2lt2lt

I do wonder about this, as I am not sure if I have been with two fairly typical men, who have enjoyed their activities and life , but also enjoy time in the man cave and had likely good emotional skills and intelligence. Or if I am actually attracted to love avoidants/anorexics/emotionally unavailable men.

I don't want to put myself through that again. I know the answer is likely that the love addict (ME) is attracted to these types of men. So a plan working on meeting my own emotional needs and addressing the addict behaviours in myself is likely to address the concern.

Hmmmm. How do I recognise a healthy individual who would make a good partner for me?

[Zues126]

I can't believe I'm typing this. You all will probably think someone hacked my password. But here goes:

I don't think it's black and white.

There isn't healthy or unhealthy, independent or co-dependent, personality or personality disorder. They are all on a spectrum.

For me, I have given up on the idea of perfecting myself. The idea of working on all of my personality flaws, dependencies, neediness, etc...I have made peace with a lot of it. Now I have learned a bit so I process things differently, don't always feel the same emotions as I have a different perspective, and process my emotions in a slightly healthier way...and having seen the damage I've caused by being less responsible I think I'd be a bit more sensitive and mature. But we're talking about degrees, not night and day.

I don't expect any different from my partner. I read the 'passion trap' book where they talked about how in every relationship there is a push/pull dynamic, from time together, to sexual desire, to much more. I think the idea of trying to find a fit so perfect that it eliminates conflict is chasing the unicorn. I believe it's more important to find a partner that takes their role and commitment as a spouse seriously enough to transcend their natural desires and find ways to partner so that both people can feel fulfilled.

Things to avoid in my mind are people that think their feelings are more valid than their partners, who form perspectives based on their feelings that they think are 'correct', who diminish their partner's needs because they conflict with theirs, then point at their partners inevitable flaws to justify why they are right and their partner is wrong and needs to change to fit their bill...and who finally leaves to find a 'better fit'.

Instead I'd like to find a partner who can understand that is playing out on both sides of the coin, we're both right, we're both wrong, we're both flawed, and we need to somehow mix in time together and time apart, sexual binges and some patience when life gets in the way, a vacation where every day is spent joined at the hip and a vacation separate where H can hang with guy friends and W with girlfriends. But in the end both parties should be aware of each other's needs, fears, insecurities, and desires, and make them a priority.

I do think that's possible, and I look forward to it someday. Frankly I don't think there's a level of neediness that would scare off a man that can manage that, as long as you can do the same. Which may mean there are weeks you don't get the level of emotional support you want, followed by weeks where you can get as close as you want. Or something like that.

As to how to recognize that individual...I'm not sure. For me I think the best answer would be their past, and their conversation. At this point I feel I'm pretty 'hulked out' in the sense that I've been on these boards an hour a day for 18 months. I feel like I can tell how someone thinks to some extent. In pool, where I play high level, I know how good someone is before seeing them play just by hearing them talk. And after competing enough in sales and pool I can often times tell how good someone is in their field, even if I know nothing about it, because I see the same patterns of attitudes and outlooks, and I know what type of results that equates to on the bell curve. So I hope that by remaining on these forums and continuing to do the work I can reach a point where I can have a conversation with someone and get a good read on where they're at, then listen to them talk about their past, how they've made life decisions, etc. If someone talked about DBing for 2 years after the loss of their marriage, for example, that would send a totally different message than someone who says they left because their last partner was abusive and they couldn't live with them anymore.

Good conversation JB. I hope my reply conveys the deep respect I have for you

[JellyB]

Zues,

"Instead I'd like to find a partner who can understand that is playing out on both sides of the coin, we're both right, we're both wrong, we're both flawed, and we need to somehow mix in time together and time apart, sexual binges and some patience when life gets in the way, a vacation where every day is spent joined at the hip and a vacation separate where H can hang with guy friends and W with girlfriends. But in the end both parties should be aware of each other's needs, fears, insecurities, and desires, and make them a priority."

I think I am this person or definitely becoming this person and I think this is the type of relationship that would suit me and I am looking for. I am just not sure how many men out there who think like this. I am finding that the 40+ year old male, is somewhat disillusioned by his experiences with his former wife/partner and seems somewhat resolved to being "true to himself"..."not changing for anyone"..."this is me, take or it leave it". For me these all seem very concrete positions. There is no flexibility for what intimate relationships call for. This is the starting place that some of these men are coming from. It feels so defended.

My natural disposition lends itself to a more fluid and kinder place. But is that my co-dependent thinking, everything can be resolved if we both just give and take. I guess I am disappointed with the above responses and because I no longer try a convince men there are different ways of relating and being in relationship, I just end up thinking that it must be me. I must be incredibly idealistic about people and relationships.

I am very confused. And I am not sure why.

Thanks for the post Zues. I know how you feel about me.

[Zues126]

I am just not sure how many men out there who think like this. I am finding that the 40+ year old male, is somewhat disillusioned by his experiences with his former wife/partner and seems somewhat resolved to being "true to himself"..."not changing for anyone"..."this is me, take or it leave it". For me these all seem very concrete positions. There is no flexibility for what intimate relationships call for. This is the starting place that some of these men are coming from. It feels so defended.

Funny, this is the same fear I have about women. I'd add "My kids will always come first", and "I don't need a man to be happy and won't put up with any crap".

I agree. What I bring to a relationship is very flexible. I have a job, children, hobbies, and a personality...so the structure of my life is somewhat shaped. But within that structure I would make my partner #1, and have no preconceived ideas on what to build with it. I'd want to build that together and merge lives with someone else's structure. That's what I think is funny about personal adds. I'm not all about listing what my life is. I'm like, 'let's discover what our life together could be'. And of course the structure could change a bit as well. I'll never be one of those people that never remarries and has a girlfriend where we keep our own houses. I'm all in or not interested.

At least we know we've still got people like us out there. And it adds value. When you ask yourself 'what do I bring', you can now answer 'an attitude that gives a real relationship a chance'. Some people might want a nice fling with an independent woman that passes herself off as hot stuff, to me I'd rather stab myself in the leg with a pen. I'll take real and gritty and ready to climb the mount everest of marriage anyday...

Respectfully yours,

Z