My turn to joing

[Cole_]

Wife was quite chipper and talkative today. Mostly about the kids and then about one of the new activities she's pursuing outside of golf. I tried to keep it lighthearted, minimize the conversation, and not engage too much, but it's a dance. If I didn't know better, it was almost like things were back to normal, but I know that at least for this morning, I probably just moved from enemy to roommate while she continues to eat cake.

[Cole_]

Time to reframe things to see if that helps adjust my thinking and approach. These are the questions I currently have. Hopefully, some of you can chime in and let me know what you think.

- We seem to be coasting right now. She hasn’t specifically mentioned the word divorce or separation, only distance and space. She is, of course, not wearing her rings. She said that she isn’t in love with me and has a lot of anger and resentment toward me. She said that from the beginning, she wasn’t happy and felt she needed to make a decision whether she could fall back in love and be happy with me or whether she needed to leave and be alone to find that happiness. She claims the EA was not intended and it’s a choice of me or being alone, not me and the OM (Yeah, right /sarcasm). We’re in MC and she says she is trying to reconcile, but hasn’t demonstrated what I would call true remorse. Should I ask her the question "What do you believe needs to change for you to stay?” I haven't done that yet because it seems little needy or pursuit driven but it also makes it difficult to truly understand what kinds of things (180s, etc.) I should be working on.

- When should I begin taking a tougher approach? By tougher approach, I mean taking steps to cause her to experience the losses and pain associated with her decisions, per Sandi’s Wayward Wife threads. For example, asking her to leave the MBR, asking her leave the house and leave the kids with me, stop doing chores/doing her laundry, stop attending family activities, holiday gatherings, sending a no contact letter to OM, etc. It seems an ultimatum or tough approach right now is ill-advised, but I know I may simply be fearful and so want an outside perspective as much as possible.

- We are currently living in the same house, but sleeping in separate rooms. I’m in the guest room because I moved out 6-8 months ago due to snoring brought on by weight gain. We were on relatively good terms then and often spoke of how frustrating it was to be away from each other at night. Is it worth asserting myself and move into the master bedroom? Should I move in and kick her out? If she refuses, do I simply get in the bed with her until she decides to leave? If she claims to be working to reconcile and also claims to have NC with OM, do I allow her to stay in the same bed? I only mention this specifically because it was pointed out as an example of demonstrating confidence in one of Sandi’s threads about wayward wives (which I assume mine is due to the EA).

- My wife claims I violated her trust and privacy because I found messages on her phone implicating her EA and later found a present for OM in the house. As a result, she separated our cell phone plans. Obviously, this is the opposite direction most people recommend to rebuild trust. Should I begin making demands to see these things immediately or be patient and wait to make these demands when she demonstrates a desire to reconcile?

- My wife also seems to be GAL. In addition to the occasional trip to the driving range, she has started attending two other activities throughout the week. It’s funny how we never had time or money to do these when things were "good", but I digress. My issue is that these activities can sometimes conflict with things I’d like to do or require me to make adjustments to my schedule. Should I be discouraging these things in any way or simply detach and negotiate schedules so we can both do what we need to do?

- When attempting to do things alone with kids they often invite her to come along with us. Is that okay? If she or the kids invite me to an activity they have planned, should I go?

- Our oldest has a birthday coming up in a few weeks and I’m not sure how to approach it. We have asked friends and family to attend a party but only her mother knows of our marital issues at this point. Should I attend or should I make myself unavailable? It kills me to not be there for my kids, but if a tough approach is recommended, maybe it’s a worthwhile sacrifice.

I guess the question really comes down to what kind of engagement should I be having with my wife and how tough should I be with her given the current state where we seem to be coasting? When do I lean toward patience and allow the affair to take its course or her to see the changes I'm making? When do I lean toward tough love and start making demands and ultimatums knowing that it could result in her leaving?

[Cole_]

I also have to admit that the more I post here, the more concerned I am that my wife will find this thread. I can ensure that she won't find it on my computer, but if she is truly interested in reconciling, the risk is that she could eventually find this place. I have a lot of specific details in my initial post. I obscured a little, but in hindsight probably not enough. How often to wayward spouses stumble on posts here? Any advice for reducing the risk I already introduced? For example, starting a new post and letting this one die through lack of use or having a mod replace the original post with an edited one.

[OhGreat]

Keep things vague. Blur or change some info. Don't quote things verbatim.
Re the other post: coasting isn't bad. It gives you time.
Go out and GAL. Get a babysitter if you need to or say no, you have plans and go if that's a 180 and what you want.
You also didn't violate the trust. She did. My w complained I didn't trust her. I asked her if that was important to her.I then asked why. She would only say it was important so I asked what she had done to improve trust then since it's so important. Hasn't mentioned it since.

[sandi2]

Maybe all I can do is just be a better man and father and stop worrying about whether she can or will fall in love again (Likely). I just don't know how to be a man she can fall in love with or be able to show that man to her when so much of our relationship was built on deep and intimate conversations. When we were dating, it was about going to restaurants, watching movies or TV together, and just going out, exploring the town and spending time together. We spoke incessantly about everything.

Yes, stop worrying if she will love you or not. That causes a man to act as if he's living to please her, and he will walk around on egg shells. You just be the best man you can be. However, that doesn't mean you are the typical "nice guy" type that the No More Mr. Nice Guy book talks about. It is not about giving over to her way all the time, to keep the peace. It is certainly not be a passive type, b/c women hate that in men!

Before you can enjoy engaging in the intimate conversations, you will need to become the guy you would have been if you were single and a girl treated you this way. What would you have done back then? The problem comes when men become passive, thinking they are making the W happy by letting her make all the decisions and have her way above anyone else.........even when it's wrong.

I don't know how to show her that man has returned (or was always there) when I'm detaching and avoiding unnecessary communication. I don't know how to demonstrate these qualities when she is still in a fog, communicating with and feeling "in love" with the OM. If the OM is "her best friend and her support" and is already doing everything that I need to do to help her fall in love with me, how do I differentiate myself from him and allow her to realize that she already has everything she wants and needs in me?

That's b/c you don't know how to think like a woman. Men only think they know what women want in a H. Well, I can tell you what they don't want. They don't want a man who would tolerate her being in an A! They don't want a man who is willing to stick around and play second fiddle to OM. You don't get a wayward woman catering to her, competing with her OM. You don't get a WW's love and respect by being her BFF when she's in an A! Forget the intimate conversations.......or anything intimate, as long as OM is in the picture.

You are too dependent on what great friends you were. She is not your friend, now. So, get your head out of the past M, and get real with the present situation. She is wayward. You cannot deal with a WW as though you would a normal W.

You don't show her support during her A. Perhaps that sounds harsh, but so be it. These guys who always want to support their cheating W! What's with that? If you were screwing another woman, would you really expect your W to be supportive???

The only exception I might make would be if there was a death in the family, or one of the kids were seriously hurt, if she was seriously ill, or something along those lines. But not the kind of support most of you men think about here.

Is it simply a matter of doing what you can to be the man she fell in love with or could fall in love with again and then remaining patient? Is it simply to become that man and wait for the affair to end naturally? Is that all I can do without giving her an ultimatum?

No, It's not simple. No, don't wait around patiently for her A to end naturally. Some affairs last for years. No, don't give an ultimatum. No, that's not all you can do.
No, to all those questions!

I do not suggest writing any letters at this time.

The problem with most newcomers is believing that's all they can do!

[sandi2]

My response was that she knew where I stood and I wasn't going to make decisions for her. Perhaps that was the wrong response, but it felt right at the time. Especially if im trying to use the LRT. I have no interest in controlling her. She needs to make her own decisions and demonstrate her commitment or non commitment to our marriage. Of course the longer this plays out, the more it seems her mind is made up to leave us for the OM.

Sounds like a good answer. What good is calling her out, if you don't have proof? She'll just lie her way out of it, anyway. I think it's when the W does ask if it's okay, that a man's radar should go off.

The counseling sessions do no good for the MR until she's ended the A, and she's willing to do whatever is necessary to fix the MR. Some IC even encourage the patient to leave the M and do whatever makes them happy.

My response was that she knew where I stood and I wasn't going to make decisions for her. Perhaps that was the wrong response, but it felt right at the time. Especially if im trying to use the LRT. I have no interest in controlling her. She needs to make her own decisions and demonstrate her commitment or non commitment to our marriage. Of course the longer this plays out, the more it seems her mind is made up to leave us for the OM.

Sounds like a good answer. What good is calling her out, if you don't have proof? She'll just lie her way out of it, anyway. I think it's when the W does ask if it's okay, that a man's radar should go off.

The counseling sessions do no good for the MR until she's ended the A, and she's willing to do whatever is necessary to fix the MR. Some IC even encourage the patient to leave the M and do whatever makes them happy.

My response was that she knew where I stood and I wasn't going to make decisions for her. Perhaps that was the wrong response, but it felt right at the time. Especially if im trying to use the LRT. I have no interest in controlling her. She needs to make her own decisions and demonstrate her commitment or non commitment to our marriage. Of course the longer this plays out, the more it seems her mind is made up to leave us for the OM.

Sounds like a good answer. What good is calling her out, if you don't have proof? She'll just lie her way out of it, anyway. I think it's when the W does ask if it's okay, that a man's radar should go off.

The counseling sessions do no good for the MR until she's ended the A, and she's willing to do whatever is necessary to fix the MR. Some IC even encourage the patient to leave the M and do whatever makes them happy.

Also, in regards to GAL, how do I do that without impacting our kids, or appearing that I'm less involved with them? One of her complaints was that I didn't help with the kids and if I leave the kids with her to do things on the weekend, doesn't that reinforce her perception of me?

You are programmed to think how she wants you to think. Stop it. She will hold those old complaints over your head and make you a spineless puppet, if you don't stop it. Stop trying to GAL that includes you keeping the kids. And, no, it will not have an unhealthy impact on them. Having a well-rounded father, who is not co-dependent on his W, will have a very positive impact.

Am I saying to never spend time with your kids? No, I am saying not to save your GAL for just weekends. I am saying she will invite herself along on anything that appears to family stuff. You cannot afford to consider it your GAL.

What is she losing due to her waywardness? Is she worried she may lose you? She should be. She's a cheater and she should be concerned you've had enough of her craziness about never leaving the kids with anyone, while the M is shot to hell. She should be concerned that she hasn't been intimate with you, and how she's being unfaithful.

[sandi2]

Time to reframe things to see if that helps adjust my thinking and approach. These are the questions I currently have. Hopefully, some of you can chime in and let me know what you think.

- We seem to be coasting right now. She hasn’t specifically mentioned the word divorce or separation, only distance and space. She is, of course, not wearing her rings. She said that she isn’t in love with me and has a lot of anger and resentment toward me. She said that from the beginning, she wasn’t happy and felt she needed to make a decision whether she could fall back in love and be happy with me or whether she needed to leave and be alone to find that happiness. She claims the EA was not intended and it’s a choice of me or being alone, not me and the OM (Yeah, right /sarcasm). We’re in MC and she says she is trying to reconcile, but hasn’t demonstrated what I would call true remorse. Should I ask her the question "What do you believe needs to change for you to stay?” I haven't done that yet because it seems little needy or pursuit driven but it also makes it difficult to truly understand what kinds of things (180s, etc.) I should be working on.

- When should I begin taking a tougher approach? By tougher approach, I mean taking steps to cause her to experience the losses and pain associated with her decisions, per Sandi’s Wayward Wife threads. For example, asking her to leave the MBR, asking her leave the house and leave the kids with me, stop doing chores/doing her laundry, stop attending family activities, holiday gatherings, sending a no contact letter to OM, etc. It seems an ultimatum or tough approach right now is ill-advised, but I know I may simply be fearful and so want an outside perspective as much as possible.

- We are currently living in the same house, but sleeping in separate rooms. I’m in the guest room because I moved out 6-8 months ago due to snoring brought on by weight gain. We were on relatively good terms then and often spoke of how frustrating it was to be away from each other at night. Is it worth asserting myself and move into the master bedroom? Should I move in and kick her out? If she refuses, do I simply get in the bed with her until she decides to leave? If she claims to be working to reconcile and also claims to have NC with OM, do I allow her to stay in the same bed? I only mention this specifically because it was pointed out as an example of demonstrating confidence in one of Sandi’s threads about wayward wives (which I assume mine is due to the EA).

- My wife claims I violated her trust and privacy because I found messages on her phone implicating her EA and later found a present for OM in the house. As a result, she separated our cell phone plans. Obviously, this is the opposite direction most people recommend to rebuild trust. Should I begin making demands to see these things immediately or be patient and wait to make these demands when she demonstrates a desire to reconcile?

- My wife also seems to be GAL. In addition to the occasional trip to the driving range, she has started attending two other activities throughout the week. It’s funny how we never had time or money to do these when things were "good", but I digress. My issue is that these activities can sometimes conflict with things I’d like to do or require me to make adjustments to my schedule. Should I be discouraging these things in any way or simply detach and negotiate schedules so we can both do what we need to do?

- When attempting to do things alone with kids they often invite her to come along with us. Is that okay? If she or the kids invite me to an activity they have planned, should I go?

- Our oldest has a birthday coming up in a few weeks and I’m not sure how to approach it. We have asked friends and family to attend a party but only her mother knows of our marital issues at this point. Should I attend or should I make myself unavailable? It kills me to not be there for my kids, but if a tough approach is recommended, maybe it’s a worthwhile sacrifice.

I guess the question really comes down to what kind of engagement should I be having with my wife and how tough should I be with her given the current state where we seem to be coasting? When do I lean toward patience and allow the affair to take its course or her to see the changes I'm making? When do I lean toward tough love and start making demands and ultimatums knowing that it

Cole, I discussed all these things in the WW threads, if you care to read them.

[Cole_]

Sandi,I just finished the ww threads which is what lead me to reframe things. I feel like it might be time to be tough and I guess maybe I'm looking for some reassurance that I understand and am interpreting everything correctly. My emotional state these days makes me a little less trusting of my own judgement.

[Cole_]

My wife just engaged me in a discussion about our relationship by asking if I thought we were making progress. She said she also thought we were coasting and I agreed and told her it's better than sinking and these things take time. Then I asked her how she would know if they were getting better and her response was that she would know when she had a reason to stay, that her goal is what she told our MC - she was looking for a reason to stay. Then she asked if I really thougt we could reconcile and so untold her r that while it wouldn't be easy I had read about couples that do and have different but better marriages. Her response was that she didn't think she could get past the way I behaved in our last fight and the trust/privacy issues. We finally tabled it. Not exactly promising, but I'm trying to remember to ignore what comes out of her mouth.

The Worst part was later when my oldest was sitting at the table and decided to draw our family. Hearing him talk about all of us together made me lose it and I had to leave. I know she's not the woman I married anymore and isn't thinking straight but isn't our family reason enough to stay? I'm destroyed and yet enraged.

[Cole_]

And for the sake of people mentioning it, yes, I understand that kids/family may not be a great reason to stay together but it's definitely a huge reason to work towards it.