I guess since I have been acting more detached, she has noticed and it appears to upset her. This is another area I'm confused. If she's upset (i.e. crying and asking me to talk about R) after a night out with friends during which I was friendly and upbeat, but detached and 180 opposite of my usual level of attentiveness, is this to be interpreted as positive or negative result?
What would you consider being a positive result? I'm serious, what would you expect her to do that you thought was positive to your detaching?
You are still thinking like a H who has a normal W. She has changed, so stop thinking as if you have the same woman you use to have.
Actually, her reaction is a very positive result, IMO. She likes the attention you give her. You being detached is not only a surprise, but a challenge for her to do something to get that attention back on her again. She may sulk about it, at first, then may get angry. A WW has a little bag of tricks she carries at all times. If one trick doesn't work, she'll reach in her bag for another one.
Quote:
I think I'm unclear and still seeking advice on how to respond if/when she decides to initiate physical intimacy.
Well, if you mean what can you say, I gave a few ideas in a post before my last one (I think). Maybe that wasn't what you were seeking. We need to know if you plan to accept if she initiates or refuse, before we can tell you how to respond.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
OK....MC session AND DB Coach session, all in 1 day. Been a whirlwind.
Listened a lot in MC session, didn't talk that much. Here's what I learned (everything below is direct quote or paraphrase of what she said in the MC session:
W says deep emotional connection is not present or growing. She tends to avoid talking about her true feelings to me b/c she doesn't wan't to 'rock the boat' - we don't really fight, and she doesn't have any 'major grievances' and hesitates to bring up things which could be hurtful or harmful.
She has noticed that I stopped giving affection a week ago, and she understands why I did that - b/c she told me she doesn't love me, and W believes it was to see if she would step up and show anything (affection/feelings), which she did not do because 1) she would feel she was acting falsely, and 2) she doesn't know if she will ever have that feeling or if it was ever there to begin with, and doesn't want to give me false hope.
W doesn't know if this reality is temporary, but she's been feeling it for a long time.
W felt an obligation to family to work on R, but has felt for a while that R has run it's course. However, feels it would be selfish of her to disrupt our family/kids b/c things really are not terrible and W feels there should be something really awful in order to completely give up on R.
She feels no deep emotional connection to me. Does not feel drawn to me. She describes 'emotional connection' as: feeling at ease, connected, can be completely open and express thoughts and feelings confidently and comfortably, feeling a natural chemistry/connection/real friendship.
W acknowledges I have been successfully been working on these areas of our R, and she is thankful that I'm more emotionally available and I don't pass judgement, BUT it may be too late. She "can't seem to get on board fully" w/ what I'm offering.
W feels less likely now that 'getting on board' is a possibility, vs. a year ago. Even though I have demonstrated vast improvement in those areas and she's satisfied w/ my emotional availability.
W feels an obligation to see if things can be different, for the sake of our family/kids.
W feels uncomfortable; she knows what she SHOULD do, but it doesn't feel right. Here's her list of what she SHOULD do: 1) be affectionate toward me, hug, eye gaze, etc 2) open up to me about her feelings 3) be happier when she's with me 4) not resist the efforts I'm making
Even though she says she should do these things, it doesn't feel right b/c a part of her is DONE with the R and that is where the resistance comes from.
Our potential efforts to save M are worthwhile to keep the family together, BUT, not worthwhile to try to evoke a feeling from her that she's not sure is coming back, or was ever really there in the way I(H) thought it was.
W is scared about what may happen now that she has said this. Scared she may regret if we part ways. Scared how I will react, and if I will make a unilateral decision, and the implications of that.
W doesn't want to be stagnant, or continue to hold back her truths due to fear of their implications. W desires to be open and honest, regardless of the direction we ultimately take. Doesn't want negative feelings toward each other. Scared how I will react to this discussion (i.e. shut down, leave, disconnect, etc).
I did ask a few questions and relayed the paradox that she desires deep emotional connection, however we need to be totally honest w/ each other and talk about things like this if that is ever to occur. Mainly I deflected questions to her and LISTENED.
She was very upset this past weekend when we went out with friends and I didn't spend much time with her, and was 'detached'. She felt I was doing this b/c I was angry that she told me ILYBNILWY. I told her I was not angry, but she didn't believe me. I did not tell her the real reason was I was trying a 180 detach.
THEN I SPOKE TO MY DB COACH. Coach said do not punish her. The 180 affection / detachment seemed more punitive than constructive. If her interactions with me feel rewarding to her, then that should be an indication I'm doing the right thing. He said she's not a pure WAW as compared to some others perhaps on this forum, where W is asking for space, or needs time alone, or separating, etc.
Coach said I should relay to her the 'vision' of the relationship worth fighting for. I should open myself up as much as possible, not just about the R, but about highs and lows for the day, how things (R and otherwise) impact me, and essentially convey to W that 'I want you to know who I am'.
He agreed my signing up for a Yoga class (one of her passions which I've never shown an interest in) was a great step since that really sparked her interest in a positive way, prompting her to ask "why didn't you just ask to go to a class with me, or do yoga w/ me at home?" I responded I wanted to try it out by myself first and see if I like it. Coach thought that was great and left some mystery to intrigue her.
Coach also said it was OK to show affection especially if it was empathetic, but not to go overboard. Still agreed I should continue to refrain from saying ILY, but there may be times when this would be beneficial.
I guess I am going to discontinue the affection embargo tactic, and go toward a mild affection tactic (strategically timed to give comfort to her). I still will not try to initiate sex, but I will hug/kiss goodbye in the AM and goodnight in PM. DB coach says in my case this would not be considered pursuit.
Both MC and DB Coach say to increase communication, both about R and other things as well. Ultimately I just want to do what works, and stop what doesn't work. So far, showing an interest in one of her passions has seemed to work. Perhaps if I can engage with something that naturally ignites her passion, she will be more likely to feel passion for me? I'm not expecting miracles of course, but thinking more long term strategy.
It's been a tough day hearing all this from someone I love so much. the feeling of rejection is not getting to me too badly (yet?), and I hope I can keep a bright outlook. I'm going to wait and see if she wants to bring anything up tonight about the R, and if not, I plan on sharing my feelings on some other topics, unrelated to our R. I hope I'm on the right path. Feeling like a total amateur here.
Progress being made. Got home last night and got kids to sleep. W wanted to talk about our MC session and just see how i felt in general. I told her:
I have been doing research and getting therapy and advice on our situation. I realize that since we have had kids (2007), we have not been cultivating our own friendship / relationship by spending time together (quality time), being present in the moment and having conversations of any depth with each other, and not placing a priority on nurturing our friendship and setting time aside to focus on US. Also some of this was similarly going on even before kids.
Basically, I realize that I have not been proactive in ongoing cultivation of our friendship, and because of that, it has understandably disintegrated. I realize that a M without a strong foundation of friendship could never be a truly loving M. I told her I now understand how frustrating it must have been for her all these years telling me this over and over without me truly understanding what the meaning was, b/c I never was clear about this shortcoming of mine. I always reacted by feeling I was a great husband and I had no idea where this was coming from. I told her in a way, I owed her a 'thank you' for dropping this bomb and helping me open my eyes to an area where I have an opportunity to greatly improve as a person, which I was previously ignorant of.
I told her I understand she does not feel in love with me anymore, and I take full responsibility for that. I have made peace with the current situation and don't have any feelings of resentment, blame, or depression.
I told W that I don't have any expectation that she will love me again, however since she told me she does not want to separate or divorce right now (which she stated during this convo), then I had a suggestion of a direction if she was interested in hearing it at this time, and if not, no big deal. W affirmed she was curious to hear it.
I suggested that I have detached from whether or not she will ever fall back in love with me, however if she does not simply want to live as roommates and keep things status quo, I suggest we start focusing on becoming friends. No expectations of love, physical affection, no guarantees, no commitments as to what the future might hold, nothing. Just simply allocate some time to spend together, regularly, building a friendship, where we are only focused on us and our friendship.
She cried and reached out to squeeze my hand (first physical contact initiated by her in 4 MONTHS), and tearfully told me that "this was the most impactful conversation we have ever had in our 16 year relationship", and she was totally on board with my suggestion.
WIN!
So, I'm pushing the sadness etc. aside and I truly am OK with the BD of ILYBNILWY. I can understand how our current state came to be, from lack of continuing to nurture and cultivate our friendship, and I am taking full ownership for that. It doesn't matter that she could have initiated that as well. It's irrelevant. The point is, I understand, and that understanding, in itself, created a connection with her.
Now I can 'take one to tango' in taking the lead in creating actions which will include spending quality time together and simply working on creating a meaningful friendship. It may or may not result in her eventually feeling in love with me (heck she very well might change her mind and decide she doesn't want to even be friends!) but that doesn't matter so much right now. At least we are on the same page currently, and have established a connection as a starting point.
My plan is to try to be a bit unpredictable in making plans for us to spend time together. Not trying too hard to impress her or 'date', but just to create a space for a friendship to flourish. It will be lighthearted and I will not dwell on R talk, unless she wants to. I hope I can become best friends with my W, and I'm going to make that my mission, but one step at a time.
One lesson learned is that this kind of talking with her is effectively a 180 for me (one I had not thought of, but just occurred organically). Normally I would listen, and offer to 'fix' a complaint she had. I was never understanding the actual complaint at it's fundamental level.
I have another DB coaching session next week, and the topic will be: how to turn W into a pursuer. I know it could be a long road, but I'm prepared to be as patient as necessary.
BTW the Yoga class worked. She asked me if I had signed up for it to meet other girls. I told her no, that I signed up for it b/c I wanted to try something she was passionate about, and that if I liked it perhaps we could integrate that as an activity together to help build the friendship. She couldn't have reacted more positively! W loved that and said she couldn't believe what she was hearing.
Today I went to the Yoga class, and she called me afterward asking all about it and suggesting that we do a class together later this week or next. I'm feeling like I'm on the right track, and I remain cautiously optimistic.
All of this sounds like good progress - assuming she is not having an A. Of course, nothing is linear so dont expect anything to happen to change her feelings anytime soon. She has been checked out for at least several years - it could very well take years of work for her to check back in.
However, all of this flies out the window if she is having an A - you are just friend-zoning yourself - which is exactly what she would want. Im sorry to say, but from my experience and from what you described, I would be absolutely shocked if she is not having an affair.
This is why I respectfully disagree with some of the advice to not check for an affair. If she is, no matter what you do, she will never come back to you until her affair is over. Sure, some people drive themselves crazy snooping - but I think its worse to drive yourself crazy trying to win over a spouse if it later turns out they were cheating the whole time. Its your decision to make, but in my practice - that is what I see far to often.
that's a good point, fade. I guess I just wasn't certain if having an A would make any difference in whether or not I wanted to try to restore the R. However, your post has made me paranoid now so I will do some investigation.
I dont want to freak you out and make you paranoid. But honestly - her behavior as you describe it is absolutely full of red flags for an affair - not to mention that text to her therapist.
I think it is very prudent to know the reality of your relationship. Definitely some people take it too far and read all and everything and it never stops. But based on my experience I have never once seen a WW actually try to recover her marriage while she is still actively in an affair, and I hate to see BH's kill themselves trying. That's the kind of thing that usually leads to a very messy divorce.
First of all, no matter what I would suggest you right now start keeping a daily journal/log of your involvement with the kids and family. When you were home, what you did with the kids. Document that you are at least the 50% parent.
Then I would suggest you pick a finite but appropriate period of time to snoop - ie a few weeks or when you think something may be more likely (during her next business trip, when you are gone etc) and do a thorough job.
Spend some time doing your research on what and how to do this. Among my clients, I would say the most successful techniques are retrieving deleted text or texting app messages, a Sony VAR under the drivers seat, and a phone keylogger. Google each of these and you will find step-by-step instructions.
If you don't find anything in this period, then stop looking and stop worrying about an A, at least until another red flag shows up. Its hard to prove a negative, but if you cast a wide net and dont find anything, you should feel more at ease.
However if you do find something, the hard part is you should not immediately confront her. And never reveal your sources. You need to make sure you have enough evidence to know everything you will need to know - when, where, how. How long has it been going on? who is the guy, where is he? Does he have a wife or girl friend? A criminal record? Has she spent any money on this? Is she planning to leave, or set you up? Is she breaking any laws or company policies? And you need to do your homework - consult a men's rights attorney right away to know your rights and what to do and what not to do to protect yourself and your kids. Find out if you are you in an at-fault jurisdiction, find out if the judges in your area will consider adultery in asset division or alimony - even in no-fault states, its a rare judge that wont be swayed by this.
I sincerely hope you dont find anything, but I think its always best to know the truth.
W confessed to a few EAs over the last 2 yrs. only three were 'meaningful' and 2 of those lasted about 3 months each. The longest, and most recent started in May and she cut it off about 2 weeks ago, after it had progressed to physical - only kissed one time only during meeting for lunch, in a car (according to her - who knows what to believe). That supposedly prompted her to cut things off and schedule MC with me. Others were all cut off because "it was getting to the point where the guys were confessing they were in love" and she decided it had gone too far.
Obviously, I'm devastated and disappointed. Never knew she had capacity for this.
W says she doesn't want me to leave her. Doesn't want to separate. Wants me to consider having an 'open marriage' / polyamory. WHAT!?!?!? so overwhelming to get this all at once. W seems to believe she is not meant to be monogamous for life, but she seems really confused - like having a MLC or Identity Crisis. W feels a need to seek attention & emotional connections from multiple OM.
W is scared I will hate her and leave her after learning this. I told her I'm not interested in punishing her and I'm glad she was finally honest. I will not up and leave, but suggest that if all cards are on the table to try to regain a connection to see where the relationship wants to go, prior to even discussing my thoughts on an open marriage.
We spent the whole weekend together, in deep conversations and just being together and trying to comfort each other. It was brutal but also good in that we both felt connected for the first time in years. My reaction was such a 180 from what W expected, she cannot believe it and has expressed sincere remorse for her deception and actions, and gratitude for the way I'm handling it.
After 3 days of intensive conversation & being together, she says she is beginning to feel love for me again -- I have been "incredibly understanding" and she feels like she had convinced herself that she didn't need me, but is realizing now that feelings are resurfacing that she really does.
I expressed it will take quite a bit of time for me to regain any trust, so I am taking everything she says with a grain of salt. Thus far she seems genuine in her intent. I'm just taking it one day at a time here, and trying to give it a chance.
Of course my friends all say 'leave her' but I still love her and want to protect my children from trauma unless it's absolutely necessary. If there's any hope to rebuild, I'd like to explore that before throwing in the towel.
Going to be a long tough road ahead but I have to say I'm so thankful that things are drastically changing - regardless of whether we split or stay together. I just couldn't go on the way it was prior - feeling so detached - and now understanding why.....she wasn't letting me fully in on her 'double life' and therefore neither of us could ever feel fully connected as long as deception and lies were going on.
Yes it's true I'm not sure who I'm married to and am basically trying to start over, creating a friendship at first and cautiously seeing where things go. I have a strange mix of depressive feelings of betrayal, and happy feelings to finally be on the same side of the table with totally open communication the last few days.
This will leave a lifetime scar, but I am following the advice in DR regarding forgiveness, and remain cautiously hopeful.
Dont believe a thing she says. I seriously doubt she had these guys professing love without getting sex. I've never seen that happen.
Being "understanding" is probably the worst thing you can do in your situation. Reconciliation never works unless a WW has to, and chooses to work for it.
