Don't worry, you're doing great and getting the beginnings of the desired results remarkably quickly. That's awesome. What's happening is she's getting a glimpse of reality that you can go on without her just fine and she doesn't like it. Follow the plan and it will be her that pursues you.
thanks for the encouragement. however I'm really nervous that she sees that my parents came to visit and they are avoiding her, so when her parents come to visit she's going to keep them away from me, and now that she acknowledged that I haven't asked about the family dinners, she's going to not mention it again unless I do, and the whole "maximum distance" thing is just going to push us apart.
the other tact is to schedule the family dinners, and be friends with her, and not be so aloof, but still don't pursue. It just seems safer to maintain a connection that I can build on, instead of playing a game of cat and mouse. This isn't high school.
I would think that if you've agreed on family dinners for you guys and the kids, that's really not pursuing. Pursuing would be talking with her about the R, talking about the future together, asking her on dates, telling her you love her, etc.
Planning family dinners is not the same thing in my book. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't do that.
I know that we dont tend to see eye to eye on many things here, but I will keep giving you my opinion anyway. Feel free to ignore it.
Something is happening and I'm worried about it.
My wife moved out 6 days ago. Our plan was to remain friends, and have dinner together with the kids once a week. People here have advised me to not push for being friends, and to back off as much as possible. In this first week in separate houses, I have not called her, emailed, or texted her. I saw her once at the kid's soccer game and we chatted for a few minutes. That's it. This sounds good. How does this make YOU feel?
Today she called to talk to the boys. My parents were here visiting, which she was unaware of. She was very close to my parents. I told her my parents were here, just because I didn't want to seem like I was hiding it, and I figured the boys might mention it to her. I could tell in her voice, she was a little shaken that they were here and she didn't even know. I asked her a question and there was a pause before she could answer, I think she was choked up.
She said, "I have to say, something has changed about you." I asked what she meant. She said the week went by and I didn't call to ask about our plan to have dinner together as a family as we had discussed. She said it was obvious that I was changing. I said I don't mean to be changing WHAT? Why did you say this. ARENT you TRYING to change yourself for the BETTER???, and I do still want to have dinner together but I think I need a week or two with the new living arrangements before I'm ready for it. She said that was fine. Look back at this, and let me know your opinion. Does sound like it's coming from a place of strength? It makes it seems like youre AVOIDING her because it HURTS too much. I dont really think thats the message you want to convey.
Then she asked if the boys could come over to her house on Sunday, which is supposed to be my day, just for a short visit. she wanted to make sure they knew which house was hers when they get off the bus and to see what their new rooms look like. I thought for a second and thought about DB. I said I guess it is OK, but didn't we agree that they would stay with me for the week and couldn't they just take the bus home to her house on Monday as planned? She said OK, that's fine, she'll pick them up at school. Good! I think part of it was that she wanted the kids to see her house but I wonder if she was just missing them. Then she said again that I was changing. I said I was just trying to give her the space I thought she wanted. I asked her what she meant again and she said, it's OK, we don't have to discuss it, but it was obvious, and that she should have expected it. I said OK, do you want to talk to the kids then? and she said yes, so I put the kids on the phone.... It felt very uncomfortable. Its going to be uncomfortable. You want to be married and she doesnt. She knows she is hurting you. Shes hurting. Nothing is going to be easy.
I'm not sure how to interpret this. I was doing everything I could to back off, and live the DB way. I didn't call to arrange the dinner. I didn't call at all. I didn't initiate any contact. She obviously noticed, and the fact that my parents were here visiting without her knowledge also evoked something in her. I dont really understand what the problem is. It sounds like you were doing well...?
Maybe this is having the desired effect....Maybe she is missing my parents and sad that they don't want to see her. maybe she is missing the kids. Maybe she didn't like being alone for a week. But I'm worried that my backing off is really going to push her away. How is this pushing her away? SHE asked YOU about the dinners right? She said she should have expected it. I am worried that she's going to just push forward, and it might even make things easier for her, knowing that I'm not trying to pull her back anymore. Its scary. A very wise woman told me the following: FAITH and FEAR cannot coexist. Which do you have, Gabs? I'm worried that my backing off is going to make a wall between us and she is going to move further away from me. Now she can break off completely, stop worrying about how I'm doing... .another step "forward." Do you think it would be easier or harder for her to make those steps if you were knocking down her door trying to see her?
A part of me wants to send her an email tonight and say that we should plan our first dinner together. I could continue with my plan to be "friends without pursuit" but not back off so much that I'm being aloof and avoiding contact. You can either pursue or not pursue. I dont think there is a middle ground, really. Nobody says to be aloof and to avoid contact. Those are your interpretations of the rules. What you should do is not INITIATE contact. I don't like the way it feels and I'm worried that it's pushing her away. Faith or fear, good buddy? She was going to go to the Farmer's Market tomorrow where my band is playing and now she said she won't come, I guess because she assumes my parents will be there and it would be weird. Or maybe because I am backing off so much she feels uncomfortable around me now. It isnt your backing off that is making her uncomfortable. Im guessing its spending a week in a quiet house full of boxes by herself thats making her uncomfortable. I think being friends without pursuit might have been safer and better. Safer for WHO? Better for WHO? Maybe I'm backing off too much and it's going to backfire. In the end, it isnt the BACKING OFF that is the key. The key is your own self-improvement. The backing off is needed to give you the space to do that. You have to stop focusing on her so much. I know it's hard. But its so important.
What do you have planned for next week without the kids?
The other tact is to schedule the family dinners, and be friends with her, and not be so aloof, but still don't pursue. I do not for the life of me know where you are getting the idea that you should be aloof. Ive seen you write it several times. That is NOT the goal. Your goal is to friendly, like you would be to a nice neighbor.
It just seems safer to maintain a connection that I can build on, instead of playing a game of cat and mouse. Like I think Ive written before, it all depends on what your goal is. If I told you to choose one of the following set of odds:
Option A - 15% reconciling, 75% good friends, 10% coparents only Option B - 30% reconciling, 5% good friends, 65% coparents only
I believe doing what you are describing is Option A. I am not interested in being good friends with a woman that lied, betrayed, and cheated me, so I will consider reconciling or coparenting only -- therefore, I am only interested in Option B. That choice is up to you. My opinion is that by dong things that get you towards Option A, it is taking you AWAY from the goal of reconciliation.
This isn't high school. No. It's not. It's real life. And frankly, the only ones I care about are yours and your kids'.
I am concerned, because it sounds like you think this is all a game. Like, if you act coy and do this "distance" thing, sooner or later, she will realize her wrongdoings and come back. But only if you play just right.
If thats your idea, then you are missing the point.
The rules are not to "win her back". The rules are for you. They are so that you can get yourself the space to become the best version of you possible. Without the pressure of dealing with your spouse. Without making things in your R worse. If you spend the whole time watching her, you cant look at yourself.
I'm very concerned that you have really misunderstood the DB program and DB rules to be some kind of game with very rigid rules.
That is 100% the opposite of what it really is. No one is telling you to use the LRT with your wife. No one is telling you not to talk to her.
More importantly, you're doing FINE, and are undoubtedly doing the best you can. People here aren't criticizing you to make you feel badly, they're trying to help. Some of the advice you'll get is spot on, and some will not be. You need to filter it for yourself and see what applies.
I know it's frustrating because it's easy to have black and white rules but DB is all about nuance and subtlety. You can say the exact same words to your wife two different ways with different body language and tone. One way would help your cause and the other way would hurt it. It's not about what you say or don't say, it's about your energy -- how you feel about yourself, how you choose to conduct your life, and the rest reflects that.
If you are happy, confident, independent, and clearly 100% fine on your own, with no "need" for your wife at all, that will come across. If that is your evident attitude, then you can send her flowers and flirt with her, and still not really be pursuing because she'll see in your demeanor that you don't really care if she engages or not. You don't "need" her to do anything. In that context, you're not pursuing, even though you bought her a romantic gift!
If, on the other hand, you go completely dark and stop communicating with her entirely, but every time she happens to see you you emit an aura like Gollum, desperate for any crumb of attention from your "precious", then even though you're not really *doing* anything, you're still pursuing.
See how confusing this can be if you look for absolute rules?
It's like Damone said in "Fast Times At Ridgemont High":
"Yeah! The attitude dictates that you don't care whether she comes, stays, lays, or prays. I mean whatever happens, your toes are still tappin'. Now when you got that, then you have the attitude."
"The Attitude" doesn't mean that you are standoffish, aloof, or withhold communication. It just means that no matter what she does and no matter how she responds to you, your toes are still tappin'.
The advice people give to withdraw is to help you to cease pursuit. You don't want to allow your WAW to "cake eat" and enjoy all of your emotional support, while providing none to you. That is a prescription for staying stuck in an unfulfilling, one-sided relationship for YEARS.
If you can have "the attitude", and it can be real, and completely believable, then you can feel free to maintain an active friendship with her, go to family dinners, and you are 100% following DB and furthering your cause, because she will know and believe that you want NOTHING MORE from her than what you are getting.
If you cannot have a friendship and family dinners with her while credibly projecting "the attitude" then you are hurting your cause and should wait until such time as you've processed your feelings more and gotten back on your own two feet.
Once your WAW believes you are detached then you can interact with her however you want, because you are obviously NOT pursuing, you're 100% fine with just a friendship.
Please don't view the DB rules as some kind of high school game -- nothing could be further from the truth. If you want to reconcile your W has to believe you have "dropped the rope" and are no longer pining for them.
In the examples you cite of your friends who separated and then reunited, those men may have DB'd naturally without ever knowing about this site. When their WAW said they wanted to leave they may have smiled and said "I understand, whatever you feel you need to do" and then proceeded with their life. To you it may have looked like they didn't DB at all, but if they had "the attitude", then they were DB'ing like a champ without knowing it.
You're doing fine. This isn't an either/or. You find your way the best that you can. When you got here you 100% rejected that giving space was a good idea and were convinced that you needed to pursue to "prove" to your wife that you loved her. You seem to now believe that was not a good idea. Keep living and learning, you'll find your way like we all do.
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Sorry you are suffering, you are not alone. Everyone here knows exactly what you are talking about. For me, the anxiety of not knowing what was going to happen was the worst.
Have you considered seeing a doctor about anti-depressants or anxiety meds to get you over the hump? I had to take meds for a short time and they helped me sleep and took the edge off.
In the meantime, I see you are wanting to email her regarding dinners and things like that. I don't think that's your best course of action. I think your wife sees right through you and knows you are desperate to save the marriage even though you think you are good at faking that you are ok. What kind of 180 can you do here? I suggest backing way off.
You also sound codependant on her. You sound like your entire world is your wife. I'm a codependant. I have to be careful not to make my relationship my entire sense of self worth. I also tend to be a rescuer and fix problems for my partner. Do you do any of these things?
I suggest reading a book titled "Codependant No More" and see if it resonates with you.
Really like your post Accuray, and find it very helpful.
One question though, you say to act like you're fine with a friendship, but doesn't that go against some of what sandi says? Where do you draw the line with being friends?
Oatmeal there are so many "it depends" in answer to your question. When in doubt follow Sandy's rules.
In my opinion you draw the line with being friends at providing any type of support, either emotional or financial. My recommended standard is "friendly co-worker". If it would be over the line for a friendly co-worker, then it is over the line for your WAS.
Generally trying to "be friends" is not a good idea unless it benefits your kids, simply because most people do not have the self discipline to cease their pursuit / moping / "little comments" etc. In addition, it can stick you in limbo forever as your WAS will probably be getting what they need from you so why change anything?
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
I'm just not going to be able to follow all the rules here perfectly after she moves out. We have kids. For their sake, I have to communicate with my wife. I can't play games and not answer her text messages. We have agreed that maintaining a friendship is in the best interests of the kids.
I'm just curious about which rules. Which one, exactly, tells you not to do the things you stated above? Which ones are you not going to be able to follow?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
