I believe each marriage and person within has a different expectation of what they want.
What I have now is a bit more than 3 months ago superficially speaking. Intimacy wise I can touch her but she will not respond. I can hold her hand but she will not close her grip. She will not initiate any contact no matter how small. I am not even talking about sex, that at the mo is Sci-Fi.
Only reason I am sleeping in MB is because I read here it was important so I decided to move. She got the hump but learned I was here to stay and she had 2 options, the spare or the couch.
A month before everything blew up she wanted an expensive sports watch so I did some numbers told her it was expensive but got it. I didnt get a thanks or hug or anything. I let it slide. When I discovered the pics a couple of them were with her wearing it.
The week before everything went up **** creek she sent me images of some stickers with phrases she put on the bedroom doors and I complimented her. I thought that was a good sign. The day before S day we met inlaws at supermarket and she proudly showed them the new company vehicle I got.
On S Day we had a normal cool day at lunch, she left happy said bye to us as she supposedly left for gym. And then I catch her with the OM and see that she sent image with words .. I really miss you ... that very same day.
As you can see, superficially for some these co actions as a couple seem positive but with me looking back they mean nothing as there was no gesture, loving action, I don't know ... something more intimate or personal.
What I have now is the same with a minor improvement in our interaction but still zero affectionate wise.
She thinks I am just referring to sex no matter how many examples of non sex related I give she could have done.
Without this reassurance everything else is just shaky and I cannot move ahead. She won't even tell me to STFU, that she will give it a go or that she wont. when I read other posts I see the WAS or WS wanting out, getting a life on their own. She can't so the more reason I feel she is trapped and whenever she gets a chance will fly away and again this feeling of being used which I consider worse than an EA or PA. The others happen and you get caught up in strong emotions. With this it is more premeditated and calculated.
Another point is that my company wants me emigrate next year with 2 possible locations and next week I will have talks. If I felt secure about her and me I would postpone as much as possible as she will have issues regarding her family even though she would benefit professionally and I think as a couple it would also be a fresh start. If she wants out I would count my losses, sell the appartment and move to a fresh start even though I know it will mean her ending up a divorced 47 year old, living with her parents and no income in a country with high unemployment rate. Add to that our son also wants to emigrate. Thats hurts me a lot and I really really dont want that to happen but I am also tired of living in an insecure relationship.
Anyway, last night I told her to think about what she wants to do. I don't want to end this but can't keep on living like this as everytime I bring it up I end up being the bad guy. If I leave it alone she will again get comfortable with this type of relationship as she has done for years and i will be stuck which I dont want to be.
Thank you for the recap. I understand most of that.
But in all of your posts your focus is on the negative. I'm trying to understand your goals. What is your ideal marriage. How far are you from having it? Objectively.
Objectively speaking i want her to stay with me as a loving and faithful wife.
I suppose if I close my emotions and put a smile on everything and continue as until now we can go back to a superficially happy relationship without the things i miss. In a short time. How far we are from a real fulfilling relationship I imagine still many months away.
Not exactly. You keep referring to two parts of a marriage - the daily activities and the physical touch. You've said you're living "half a marriage". I contend that a fulfilling marriage is much more than just these two facets. I'm asking you to consider this so that you can see what your wife has or hasn't been offering you to date. From that, you can understand what you want and we can work all together to figure out how to help you achieve it.
Nothing will change unless and until YOU change. But what and how to change depends on your goals.
IMHO A fulfilling marriage to put in words is complicated and varies depending on the viewpoint of each individual but it has one common denominator, the parties are happy with it.
In my situation neither of us are.
I also recognize I overstressed the physical part and may have thrown you off (I am still learning about myself so please have patience). I consider the correct word to be affection in all its forms, be it actions, words or any other whereby you let them know you want them near you. Even problem sharing as strange as it may sound I would include because if you find your W opening her heart about her problems to someone else and not share them with you I find that a rejection and lack of trust. By sharing these problems with you they in a way are letting you know how they feel even if you cant do anything but listen. To me this creates a bond and an indirect message that im in there. There is a connection, much in the same way of a physical action. I do not know if you understand me.
Today we had a bust following a message she received. After the initial outburst a few hours later of really being tired I realized a few things.
1) What was done in the past was done. I cant throw a stone neither. The truth is now what happened after everything blew and there were changes only dynamited by my reactions on handling the EA and having to adjust to a severe knock in trust and confidence.
2) She does not fall into the category of a WAW or WW and is not neglecting the house, our S or not taking care of me as I read in some posts.
3) She will go out with me, she spends more time at home and wants to be less surrounded by people because she is sad or depressed.
4) She never adjusted/accepted losing her job and went from being someone in her mind to another that is totally dependant on others and got into a depression that led to where we are now.
5) I was blind and with no communication did not realize how deeply hurt she was and is as well as her plans. Now I know and can act.
6) The constant arguments though opening a crack to look inside what she is feeling also take a heavy toll on our R. This must stop.
7) I told her she seems to have a profound depression but should not handle it alone. She has a S, H & Family that love her and always have and always will be there but she needs to reach out to ask for help.
8) Self pity was never her style and hiding behind activities to keep the mind occupied is fine if it's temporary but after 2.5 years she has to make choices no matter how hard they are. Either accept her situation or find alternatives and discuss them....with me as well
9) There are alternatives and good ones, it just means she has to come out of her comfort zone but we are here to stand by her. As MWD said.... more of the same doesn't work, its time for a change. Her current situation each days makes it a little more overwhelming and seem hopeless. Time for that change.
10) Some of the strategies (expression) I opted for worked for me to make me a different person (I shall not say better) and things in my life have changed positively. I believe if she applies changes she will see the benefit too.
11) I cannot abandon her and not only because of her employment situation or she would have no where to go. That would be pity and not love. Instead because I made a commitment to honour love and protect. I have flailed with 1st, never stopped with the 2nd but sure as hell will not neglect the third. As my W and all that that means she needs my protection now more than ever. From herself. And I plan to step up. She wouldnt do that to me.
12) She wanted space and that I wasnt giving it to her. I reminded her that the last time I gave her almost a year of space we ended up how we ended up. I will step back with some conditions but she should use it wisely. We are sinking and another hit to the waterline will seal our fate.
I made these points known to her more or less as written and told her that we cannot guarantee how our R will end but if we are to suffer or feel pain then lets feel it whilst creating something so it lessens instead of whilst destroying something so it gets worse.
I hope that by reading these points whenever I have doubts I can stop myself from being a d**k.
As for the goals, I only have one at the moment. we have a trip within a few weeks that I would like her to come with me.
As for the other goals I really have to think which small realistic ones to set. I will have to think on that but her coming with me would be a positive step.
IMHO A fulfilling marriage to put in words is complicated and varies depending on the viewpoint of each individual but it has one common denominator, the parties are happy with it.
In my situation neither of us are.
I also recognize I overstressed the physical part and may have thrown you off (I am still learning about myself so please have patience). I consider the correct word to be affection in all its forms, be it actions, words or any other whereby you let them know you want them near you. Even problem sharing as strange as it may sound I would include because if you find your W opening her heart about her problems to someone else and not share them with you I find that a rejection and lack of trust. By sharing these problems with you they in a way are letting you know how they feel even if you cant do anything but listen. To me this creates a bond and an indirect message that im in there. There is a connection, much in the same way of a physical action. I do not know if you understand me. I understand. If you have read the 5LL, then I think you can understand that there are five ways that people can give and receive affection. My point was that while you feel that she isnt showing her affection through physical touch, she may be trying to express it in other ways. Ultimately, I think you should try to reinforce positive behaviors rather than punish negative ones. I dont know, but it sounds like there are other ways your W is trying or has tried to do things for/with you - focus and reinforce these. Theres a ton of examples in DR.
Today we had a bust following a message she received. After the initial outburst a few hours later of really being tired I realized a few things.
1) What was done in the past was done. I cant throw a stone neither. The truth is now what happened after everything blew and there were changes only dynamited by my reactions on handling the EA and having to adjust to a severe knock in trust and confidence. EAs are serious business. You cant just sweep something like that under the rug. But yes, whats done is done. Time to move forward.
2) She does not fall into the category of a WAW or WW and is not neglecting the house, our S or not taking care of me as I read in some posts. I wouldnt worry about categorizing. The point of DB is to improve your marriage. WHether she has walked away or is planning to walk away doesnt make a ton of difference as to the process.
3) She will go out with me, she spends more time at home and wants to be less surrounded by people because she is sad or depressed. try not to mindread. SHe may spend more time at home for any number of reasons. I wouldnt try to diagnose her as depressed.
4) She never adjusted/accepted losing her job and went from being someone in her mind to another that is totally dependant on others and got into a depression that led to where we are now. Again, all mind reading. You didnt break her so you cant fix her. Its not your responsibility that she make a smooth transition. Of course, as her spouse, you should be supportive and helpful.
5) I was blind and with no communication did not realize how deeply hurt she was and is as well as her plans. Now I know and can act. Understanding pain is important. Show empathy. Validate.
6) The constant arguments though opening a crack to look inside what she is feeling also take a heavy toll on our R. This must stop. Agreed. And dont believe everything you hear anyway. Just because she says one thing doesnt make it true. But circular arguments help nobody.
7) I told her she seems to have a profound depression but should not handle it alone. She has a S, H & Family that love her and always have and always will be there but she needs to reach out to ask for help. Nope. This is you trying to show her that shes not capable of handling herself. You arent a doctor, why are you telling her that SHE is depressed? And why would you say that you will always love her? Sounds like you are trying to control her too much here.
8) Self pity was never her style and hiding behind activities to keep the mind occupied is fine if it's temporary but after 2.5 years she has to make choices no matter how hard they are. Either accept her situation or find alternatives and discuss them....with me as well Again, this is extremely controlling. What EXACTLY do you want her to do? She has found something that makes her happy, and youre telling her it isnt OK. This sounds like an ultimatum that is going to drive her to divorcing you.
9) There are alternatives and good ones, it just means she has to come out of her comfort zone but we are here to stand by her. As MWD said.... more of the same doesn't work, its time for a change. Her current situation each days makes it a little more overwhelming and seem hopeless. Time for that change. Yes. It is time for a change. But it is time for YOU to change. NOWHERE in DR does it say that you should tell your spouse that THEY need to change. The whole POINT of DR is that it takes One to Tango. And the READER is that one. Dont tell her that she has to change!
10) Some of the strategies (expression) I opted for worked for me to make me a different person (I shall not say better) and things in my life have changed positively. I believe if she applies changes she will see the benefit too. See #9
11) I cannot abandon her and not only because of her employment situation or she would have no where to go. That would be pity and not love. Instead because I made a commitment to honour love and protect. I have flailed with 1st, never stopped with the 2nd but sure as hell will not neglect the third. As my W and all that that means she needs my protection now more than ever. From herself. And I plan to step up. She wouldnt do that to me. It is admirable to stand by your commitment. I think it's Painter that has a quote in her signature that I LOVE. But at the same time, you are selling her short. She is a GROWN woman. She doesnt and shouldnt NEED you. And I think it's a bit presumptuous of you to think that she does.
12) She wanted space and that I wasnt giving it to her. I reminded her that the last time I gave her almost a year of space we ended up how we ended up. I will step back with some conditions but she should use it wisely. We are sinking and another hit to the waterline will seal our fate. This all sounds incredibly controlling. "Im going to give you space...but only every other Wednesday, if you check in with me first."
I made these points known to her more or less as written and told her that we cannot guarantee how our R will end but if we are to suffer or feel pain then lets feel it whilst creating something so it lessens instead of whilst destroying something so it gets worse.
I hope that by reading these points whenever I have doubts I can stop myself from being a d**k.
As for the goals, I only have one at the moment. we have a trip within a few weeks that I would like her to come with me.
As for the other goals I really have to think which small realistic ones to set. I will have to think on that but her coming with me would be a positive step.
I wonder what you think Azzork.
My thoughts are above in blue. My thoughts are that you want to put her into a box and only let her operate in the confines of that box. It sounds like you believe that if she is only permitted to think or do certain things in certain ways, that the end result will be that she loves you in the way that you accept. I think you are extremely hurt by the past and dont want it to go that way again.
Ultimately, I think you are setting yourself up for failure. You can (and maybe should) set boundaries around yourself, but almost all of the points you listed are you trying to set boundaries around HER and it just doesnt work that way. Read what you wrote again and before each point remind yourself that YOU CANNOT CONTROL HER. Now, how do they sound?
I hope someone else comes on and can help too. These are my thoughts though.
Thanks for reply and sorry for delay but I travel a bit and really have limited time sometimes to read and evaluate. I agree with your posts and yes, if she does show love in one way I shouldnt punish her for lack of sex and intimacy. I know, it is probably too early to expect that and demanding these things when everything else is not right is not a good thing. BTW we did last night, and not the most romantic or passionate by any means with a discussion to start off with but the previous time she left the bedroom. This time even halfway through she laughed at a comment I made and afterwards was close.
During the past weeks we have had some bust ups, big ones and then calm, after which we both mellowed out and changed our actions towards each other in a positive way. The latest arguments are owing to a new situation in my life which will change our lives drastically.
Another point that I have realized is that I do have this tendency to want to control everything in our marriage, her, how fast or slow we go, etc. I don't know why but I realize it. I agree I should STOP and cut some slack but her behaviour does irritate me a lot. Nevertheless I will make a serious effort to stop. It is not healthy.
As you know, she lost her job 2.5 years ago and she has found refuge in sports so as to spend less time at home, take her mind off things and the like. She is also trying to make new friends actively by friend requesting on FB, I hardly see anyone asking her. During our talks I told her that I was happy she was making friends as she should like we all should but sad that the little happiness she does seem to have she prefers to share with them and not at home. I also criticized her for not actively looking for work at the beginning and now after so long it is too litle too late with only 2 interviews to show. The result has meant all the weight of the house, finances, relationship and my own work responsabilities have rested on my shoulders during this time which I did not mind until I got criticized for my personality or behaviour by her. my only defence was that all this makes me act like someone I am not and do not want to be but I am tested daily, every time her phone pings, everytime she spends each hour away from home, everytime I have to make a decision, etc.
Anyhow I will be moving out of the country (confirmed) next year so have to sell the house and put it on the market next month. She is now at a crossroads. We argue because she asks a question now, maybe another in a few days but will not openly discuss this move and it is worrying her as she says it does not let her sleep. Our son is also wanting to move as there are no real career prospects and he does not want to settle for a minimum wage. An example of this was when I asked her if she had considered living with a good friend of hers and she replied if I was joking. I said no because she never made any clear indication she was willing to move. She replied that just because she didnt say anything did not mean she wasnt thinking about it. She also mentioned that our son should go with me next month to see what the country is like and I agreed but that it was funny that the person who really needed to have a look and convincing (her) was not coming. Her reply was that she was thinking of coming over with us but that she did not want our son to make a mistake even though she did not say anything. I am not a mind reader and she makes assumptions without hearing all the facts. I really do not understand this behaviour. She thinks about this move but does not want to talk about it. Just once she wanted the bullet points. her last comment was that her heart was saying stay and her head that she should go. I told her that I cannot live her life for her nor our son, I could live my life. What I did promise was to do everything I could to try and make her happy but it was her call. After so long doing it her way it seemed pointless to carry on and if she was affected at having no job as she said then doing more of the same expecting a different result in view of our current success was not the way to go. Maybe, changing the surroundings, having a job, earning decent money and seeing how it goes for a period, basically a fresh start would be better, especially if living as we are now she is not happy. She is aware that whatever she does I will be moving, and the house will be up for sale and she will have to go back to her parents house without income and as I also told her, I will move on with my life and her staying will inevitably be the end of our marriage.
She said that some days she was in favour going, others staying and so on and that going meant having what I called a whole marriage or lets call it normal marriage. I agreed, I told her that if she was to move I wanted a new and happy marriage and not the same crappy one we had until now. I made it clear to her that our life and our marriage as we knew it ended the day all this blew up 4 months ago. Nothing would ever be the same again. We now have a chance to build something new or let it go, she had a choice. I would work on any issues to correct them since we both agreed we wanted to just be happy.
Anyway, we cooled down, and started talking again normally about other things but I imagine she is in some sort of crisis, depression, etc seeing that she has no control of her life but still not wanting to take the bull by the horns and doing something about it.
Sorry about long text but so much happened these days.
I am not in a position to offer advice but I hear your pain and frustration.
Listen to Az, he is trying to help.
I like you have a M that is missing some important stuff, but is still intact. Intact meaning no bomb drop and no separation.
I too am not willing to have an unfulfilling M, and have been close to pushing the issue. That day will come. Before that I want to really get a life and be really happy. I will use this time to also try improve R with W,
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
Another point that I have realized is that I do have this tendency to want to control everything in our marriage, her, how fast or slow we go, etc. I don't know why but I realize it. I agree I should STOP and cut some slack but her behaviour does irritate me a lot. Nevertheless I will make a serious effort to stop. It is not healthy. That "but" I bolded above...I find that using that "but" just invalidates what you said before. So it's like you know the first part is wrong, butyou feel justified in doing it because of the second part. Try to focus on the first thought and see how you can change your reactions and responses to the second part.
As you know, she lost her job 2.5 years ago and she has found refuge in sports so as to spend less time at home, take her mind off things and the like. She is also trying to make new friends actively by friend requesting on FB, I hardly see anyone asking her. During our talks I told her that I was happy she was making friends as she should like we all should but sad that the little happiness she does seem to have she prefers to share with them and not at home. Heres the same thing. Do you see it? You arent actually happy for her. Youre upset that she isnt sharing with you instead. I also criticized her for not actively looking for work at the beginning and now after so long it is too litle too late with only 2 interviews to show. The result has meant all the weight of the house, finances, relationship and my own work responsabilities have rested on my shoulders during this time which I did not mind until I got criticized for my personality or behaviour by her. my only defence was that all this makes me act like someone I am not and do not want to be but I am tested daily, every time her phone pings, everytime she spends each hour away from home, everytime I have to make a decision, etc. I understand what youre saying - it is certainly difficult when there is a big disparity in perceived "workload". This was a big issue in my M too. I just have trouble seeing how you are taking ownership for yourself here. The way this reads is that you are saying I act like XXX because YOU do XXX. It feels like you are blaming her for your response.
Anyhow I will be moving out of the country (confirmed) next year so have to sell the house and put it on the market next month. She is now at a crossroads. We argue because she asks a question now, maybe another in a few days but will not openly discuss this move and it is worrying her as she says it does not let her sleep. What exactly do you want from her here? You are right in that it is a big crossroads. She is deciding between her security and her perceived "happiness". How is she supposed to talk to you about this without hurting you by telling you the reasons that she doesnt want to go? Our son is also wanting to move as there are no real career prospects and he does not want to settle for a minimum wage. An example of this was when I asked her if she had considered living with a good friend of hers and she replied if I was joking. I said no because she never made any clear indication she was willing to move. She replied that just because she didnt say anything did not mean she wasnt thinking about it. She also mentioned that our son should go with me next month to see what the country is like and I agreed but that it was funny that the person who really needed to have a look and convincing (her) was not coming. Her reply was that she was thinking of coming over with us but that she did not want our son to make a mistake even though she did not say anything. I am not a mind reader and she makes assumptions without hearing all the facts. I really do not understand this behaviour. Like I said, Im not sure exactly what you expect from her. Everything she does towards moving will get your expectations up. Anything that she does towards not moving will cause you pain. By doing nothing, she avoids both. Shes both internally and externally conflicted. She thinks about this move but does not want to talk about it. Just once she wanted the bullet points. her last comment was that her heart was saying stay and her head that she should go. I told her that I cannot live her life for her nor our son, I could live my life. What I did promise was to do everything I could to try and make her happy but it was her call. No! You cant "make her happy". You can be supportive, helpful, attentive. But she is in control of her happiness. Not you. These kinds of comments will just come off as controlling. After so long doing it her way it seemed pointless to carry on and if she was affected at having no job as she said then doing more of the same expecting a different result in view of our current success was not the way to go. Maybe, changing the surroundings, having a job, earning decent money and seeing how it goes for a period, basically a fresh start would be better, especially if living as we are now she is not happy. The key to validation is understanding her side, and trying to be on it, but not to try to solve her problems. A lot of this, these suggestions, come off as you trying to solve problems for her. Thats not your job! She is aware that whatever she does I will be moving, and the house will be up for sale and she will have to go back to her parents house without income and as I also told her, I will move on with my life and her staying will inevitably be the end of our marriage. Sorry, but Im not sure ultimatums will work. I think she understands the deadline. But saying "she will have to go..." is just going to push her away. You are trying to solve her problems. There are many options she has - doesnt mean they are all good. But a lot can change in a year, so I wouldnt try playing out the options forward for her.
She said that some days she was in favour going, others staying and so on and that going meant having what I called a whole marriage or lets call it normal marriage. I agreed, I told her that if she was to move I wanted a new and happy marriage and not the same crappy one we had until now. I made it clear to her that our life and our marriage as we knew it ended the day all this blew up 4 months ago. Nothing would ever be the same again. We now have a chance to build something new or let it go, she had a choice. I would work on any issues to correct them since we both agreed we wanted to just be happy. I think dont be so quick next time to jump in that only SHE has a choice. You both have a choice. It sounds like youre saying "this is what I am doing. You can choose to join or not." Where is the compromise here? Where is the teamwork?
Anyway, we cooled down, and started talking again normally about other things but I imagine she is in some sort of crisis, depression, etc seeing that she has no control of her life but still not wanting to take the bull by the horns and doing something about it. Sorry to keep harping on the same points in my response here. You say she has no control of her life - but I think that its because you are trying to control it all. I think you are projecting your lack of control onto her. Just because she is being indecisive doesnt mean that she is clueless or out of control or depressed. I really think you need to think about the way this is written. Do you consider her an equal part of your marriage?
Sorry about long text but so much happened these days. No problem for me! Write away!
