Sleeping Beauty and the Jedi

[CaliGuy]

Ok, so, buckle up, my friend.

Here's the truth from me. I don't care about your w or your marriage right now. It's you I care about. I also don't care about FB. It's not important. It just isn't. Yours says separated...hers does, too. Whatver. It's not real life. LET THAT GO!

Ok uR .. I put my helmet on ... here we go.

The rings, too. Yours are off. Are you committed? You are still married. Stop worrying so much about pressure and do what feels right to you. Live your truth, Luke. Live the way you choose to live in a way that reflects who you've become. You are putting way too much importance to things and stuff. It's actions and feelings that count.

I am .. and have been committed to this M, as we discussed in a way I feel she path may have been paved almost to smoothly. With the job, it has that feel of the old M, I come home, cook, clean up, trash, dog and she tosses out a critical comment here and there making me really think 'Is THIS really what I want?' Again ... feels like that old M .. its an itchy heavy jacket I just do not want to wear.
You are spot on with the actions and feelings ... I am just not seeing them from her as of late.

If you don't want to change your FB, don't. If you don't want to wear your rings, don't. But don't judge her for her choices. Nor allow them to indicate where she may be in all of this because that will just make you crazy. She isn't even sure where she is right now.

Ok, so, maybe its PMS, maybe its not. But heres what I think part of it was. You gave her a hard time about coming home later than she should have...so she did the same. Is it the same because you feel you have reasons to be suspicious? No. Does she realize that? No. She is feeling guilt and feeling as if no matter what she does it wont make a difference so she lashed out. Is it right? Nope. But it's how she feels.

Thing was ... I told her I would be back by 10 ... if anything I was early. I do agree she is feeling guilt and what she is doing will not make a difference...not sure where I can help her out with this .. her feelings are her own. When she spews she gets nasty and its just not something I feel I am going to take ... either I validate, or truth dart.

You keep saying that her actions don't indicate her commitment. Do yours? Saying that you don't need her approval about the bike is not exactly marriage building, right? I mean technically you don't need her permission about anything, but...

I think the thing for me here is this. She does not complete things she starts. Her IC recommended a book, we talked about it .. bought it (expensive) with the intention to read together ... I have read the entire thing, she is on chapter 2, and has moved on to her romance novel. A second book .. again something she brought home wanting us to read .. I finished that .. she read the first chapter. Even the Retrouvaille stuff, for her its just the twice a month meeting we attend and a little work in between, she has not read through the material ... feel like highschool and she just cheats and uses my answers. Seems like right now she knows she needs to do some work, but really is not digging in and doing it .... I can not force/control this .. nor have I mentioned the books, its just an observation. I have read this is typical and one spouse will put more effort in than the other, realizing this I am trying not to be resentful ... under spew its tough.

As far as the book..I would imagine that was a button for her, no? You get my drift?

The PMS thing...you don't want her to use it as an excuse yet you know what its that time, she changes. So, is it a reason or isn't it?

I am also thinking that you heading for the couch every time something happens is not moving you forward in the marriage. Maybe nothing would have resolved it, but, you didn't really try anything else.

The book, yeah ... agreed .. trigger. One I did not intend, book was for me in hopes to deal with the A, and what I am now calling the OM Ghost, never met the dude but I am haunted ... something I know I have to get through and have hopes this will help.
The PMS thing I am struggling with, not sure what I can humanly do, staying away gets to her, being around gets to her ... 25 years I have yet to solve that riddle.
The couch ... we did talk about it that night. We both have not slept that well this week. She is a light sleeper, very light .. if I move .. it startles her and wakes her, which wakes me. So I told her I would sleep out there so she would get some rest ... this time was not out of anger or punishment ... more about avoiding tossing more gas on the fire as far as I was concerned.

PMS is a real thing. So, if you believe that to be true, then you need to develop ways to handle it and she needs to see a doctor about whether there is anything she can do about it. This going round and round every month isn't helping anyone.

Agreed

Your buttons were pushed, Luke. The same old ones. The way to not allow that is to find new ways of dealing with this.

I am not being hard on you. I hope you know that. It comes from a place of caring.

I want to make it clear that I do not believe that you should be verbally abused, nor should you suck it up. But you do need to work though some of the stuff you are still holding onto or this will continue.

You know I have felt all along that this was moving too quickly. Others may disagree and that's ok. But I have seen it on here and in real life way too often. Things have to be resolved in order to move forward and build a new foundation.

She feels guilty and like she cant do enough to satisfy you. You don't feel like she is all in and are still reeling from the affair and the sex issue. Those are big things to get through, but, you must.

What do you want, Luke? Are you fully committed? Its ok if you aren't. Just realize that. And if you aren't then you have to accept that she may not be either. Doesn't mean this cant work. It's just that reality has to be accepted in order to figure out how to continue.

I want to be ... I guess its a cycle, I am waiting for things from her before I consider myself 'all in' .... much of this has to do with the several times she bounced from OM to me, this week really felt like that ... no contact still but like I said .. the Ghost is there, something I am processing through.

I think she is as committed to the M as she can be right now, is it enough for me ... no. But thats ok, its more than she was this time last year. Its like she wants that warm secure feeliing ... she almost seems to need it, I had hopes with that she would work through her issues and she was. Then the job came back into play, something flipped on and these things are now placed on the back burner and no longer being addressed. This has my attention, she was doing well... very focused on herself and improvements and now the stress of the job is back, she is struggling to keep up with normal errands we all have. I noticed it takes her so much longer just to do these things, the more rushed she gets the more she panics and things take her longer. Just observing ... and have tried to help out quietly where and when I can without her realizing it. (Doing all S's laundry, sweeping up outside, vacuuming, cleaning all the dishes she leaves in the morning) ... she is so frazzled as of late she thinks she did these things (Mentioned the other morning 'where did I put the crockpot... I had washed it and put it away)

I am trying to stay calm, observe ... but yeah at times I also do not want to be beat on any more. I need to just let this happen and allow her to figure herself out. I do not want to be with someone who does not want to be with me .. I know that much ... nor do I want her to feel trapped or caged. I think the vaca will hit at a perfect time for me .. I could use a break .. get away from here for a bit and just 'be'

[CaliGuy]

I swear, that URworthy is gold:)

I also do not mean to imply it's ok to be verbally abusive around that time (I am not with my daughter either, I just lose patience very easily and the smallest things really upset me when I PMS)

I can see where she feels the guilt and you may climb up on the high "you had an A and I am kind enough to let you come back" horse. Those two dynamics will clash. So she individually needs to deal with her guilt, and you need to individually deal with the A.

Are either of you doing IC or MC aside from retrovaille?

I hand it to you both. I don't know if I could have handled repairing our M after the A if that was even an option on the table. Maybe if he was a decent person inside if he did the work, and even under those circumstances, it would still have been probably the most difficult road I walked down.

Maybe you both need to take a step back while still moving forward with repairing the M. Or get some additional outside help with your own issues.

I do wish you the best and surely think it could work, but as anyone knows, this process is certainly not linear.

I do think thats where things are different here. Before BD and all this I would just accept the PMS storm was hitting... had no idea but things got worse as she was just so angry all the time. This round was alot like that ... I really did not push her nor a button. As I told her, I thought possibly this was coming from the miscarriage we had 9 years ago .. that always comes up and it is around this time (I can not recal the precise date .. Aug 20something) and may come into play here.
Now, I do seem to have more of an issue with the "I'm hormonal deal with it" attitude ... I am pretty understanding, but that does not give her the right to go after me as she did ... sure we have issues, lets discuss those ... but she went from button to button looking for a fight, and became more upset the harder she tried and the longer I lasted.

As far as the A ... yeah .. its tough. I have said here before, DBing and letting that go was one thing ... was easier to just say "You are having an A, your choice, not my issue" .. in a box it went. Now trying to work on the M its there, we have talked about it but its there, a scar ... right there, and its a big one. I feel like its a birthmark on my face, sa much as I have accepted it and tried to just make peace with it ... in the mirror its there. Hence why I am still working on this, books, reading ... even thinking about IC again.

As far as MC/IC ... she is seeing an IC, but from what she has shared, it has not been much about the A, or even her stuff at the moment, they are currently working on posture, her spine, and diet. She has not seen the priest in some time either due to working.

MC I would be all for, and I intend to suggest we look into it because Retrouvaille is about done Post session wise, and to be honest the 'newness' is over and feels like we have lost some momentum, W does not appear to be engaged ... again back to isses with completing things and seeing them through.

[jim0987]

Evening Cali,

You get great advice anyway from people who know far more than me (UR's advice is top quality for example) so i generally stay quiet, but the couch thing has struck me a couple of times so I thought I would post.

I know I don't have all the details but I wonder if its something you might be a bit too ready to do.

One of the ongoing issues with your situation seems to be about intimacy and feeling safe (on both sides for a bunch of reasons) and I'm not sure how the sleeping on the couch plays into that.

Do you know how your W feels about it when you do? I suspect on some level it makes her feel alone and given other things you've said I wouldn't be surprised if she feels like its you bringing up the A (even though you're not)

What would happen if instead of grabbing the pillows, you instead did something like saying you want a few minutes to yourself to cool your head a bit and made both you and your W a cup of tea (I'm British....its what we do....).

Sometimes my reading is that the couch is an escalation (punishment?) Of button pressing and that a bit of space and defusing might resolve it. Or even agree to put it on pause to the morning and just enjoy lying in bed with each other

Anyway I think your doing a really good job in very difficult circumstances. You should be proud of yourself.

[CaliGuy]

Jim

The Couch:

You might have hit something here. Granted I am not to keen on handing W a hot cup of tea in the heat of the moment for personal safety reasons ...lol. That said I do think there might be a few things there. Last night I did not do it out of 'punishment' but previously .... there has been an element of 'taking my ball home'.

I had not thought about how this makes her feel especially in the light of the A and sleeping alone knowing I am there but not there, that bed is a trigger for me (then again so is the couch), was our bed and knowing the A was there ... and the horrible things that come with all that betrayal/hurt/pain... well yeah. It still is here and there and like all things, the level and duration of the cycle varies.

I do not think she cares for me sleeping on the couch, seemed last night she did not come right out and say it, but I can see your point here and I believe its valid.

Ty for your perspective ... was a good one.

As I process ... bottom line is there is a good deal of pain and hurt that I still need to get through. Seems I have to do this under the surface, I vent here some, but mostly its processed as I can in my way and its taken me by surprise the things that trigger me. Commercials, movies, tidbits from her spew where she will say something and I warp 'there' ... as of late I have struggled a bit ... try to purge this all here so its out, but even then I leave fragments out.

I just want to be 'right' again. I read something and realized I too do this ... I am normal with everyone, everyone except W, still have walls up ... walls that hide the really good parts of me, I question if I do this out of protection of myself .. or punishment towards her, something I have been wrestling with for the past few weeks. Does is even matter why? I think it does ... protection would seem 'normal' ... punishment just tells me I have not grown to be the person I really would want to be. Also shows me I have not forgiven.

Forgiveness, Trust, Love ... all 3 are decisions. Decisions I need to make. More work to still do on my side of the fence that's for certain.

Sorry for the external rambles.

[mleigh4]

Hi there. You are getting me to worry about you lately. URworthy hit on a lot of things.

I am no expert but this is what I see. You of course love your W and want your M to work, but you are still working through many issues resulting from the past couple of years, mainly the A. A biggie. You seem very wary if you can trust her motives and unsure just how much you will put up with, or even put in to this..Seems you want to be all in, but only if she is first.

Your W is still working on so many things. She is dealing with facing what she has done, losing and starting a new job, having you back in her life to work on the M and having a full time family again. She is also aware you are watching her every move. That's a lot for someone who has it all together let alone someone who is just coming out of a fog.

You both have so much going on inside still, are you sure you aren't moving things a little quick? Is it possible to extend your lease, and try dating and getting to know each other slowly again, to begin a new R? I just worry that moving back in together so quickly is creating a lot of pressure for you both. I know before you had said you didn't feel it was too quick, but if you had just met someone, would you live together after 3 months? IDK, seems like when the spouse comes out of the fog, the R should be treated as starting a whole new one all over again. At least that is how I see it and would want to with my H if the option came...I think taking it very slowly would be the best way for 2 wary and unsure people to have the chance to sort things out in regards to their feelings about their spouse and themselves.

As for sleeping on the couch....you are using that as a punishment, right? I can honestly say, having my H live in the house with me but sleep in a different bed has been one of the most painful memories of this whole mess, a true slap in the face, total rejection. I did an entire cleansing of that room, incense and all, and I still get whiffs of his cologne that bring on a wave of sadness and horrible memories. Please try to work on this.

Cali, you know we are all rooting for you and I am one of your biggest fans. I want to see you and your W on the reconciled list! Take some time to step back, what do you think can help you both to work through this? Think of the big picture, what feels right to you?

[ForeverYoung]

I do feel in a way she was 'allowed' (Does not seem like a good word ... but can not think of anything else here) back into the M maybe to easily ... like she had her A and all the 'fun', did not work out and here I am #2 who did not 'go anywhere'

I would suggest you reframe your thought regarding this. You were always #1. OM was #2 and is the one who did not work out.

Cali, it's not hard to see you're fed up with some of the sitch right now. It's not fair, it hurts, and you deserve better. I get that. But here's the thing. Your wife is "in" the M. She's trying. In your words, she's doing the best she can.

And you say you're committed to the M also.

A lot of your recent posts leave me with a sense of score keeping. Yeah, you're "ahead", but is hanging on to this fact going to aid building the new M?

Patience my friend!

If you calmly continue to be Cali 2.0 I'm pretty sure she will continue to step up and surprise you.

What's going on with the physical intimacy?

[Sotto]

"You both have so much going on inside still, are you sure you aren't moving things a little quick? Is it possible to extend your lease, and try dating and getting to know each other slowly again, to begin a new R?"

Hi Cali, sending hugs to you....I've been following along, but TBH you've had such good advice already. I think MLeigh has a point worth considering again. I do think you guys are going pretty quickly into full on marriage again - and ALOT has happened. I can see that you are on a particular course now and it may feel hard to change that. But where would the harm be in suggesting you keep your own place on a little longer to give yourselves a little more time, a little more space to process things and work on re-building? And a little more pressure-free fun....

I think you are on a good course and are making a lot of progress. Equally, you are finding it hard and there is a lot coming at you guys all at once.

Can I also say on the job front - which seems to have been a trigger here...Your W was putting in a lot of effort on the post retrouvaille work before. And that has dwindled now. But she is trying to adjust to full time work again, being a family again, emerging from fog....etc, etc. I can understand the 'homework' starting to feel like 'just one more thing to do that I don't really have time and energy for.' I'm not saying that's right, or even what is happening. But I could understand it.

As an aside, I recently discovered that Retrouvaille is also run in the UK and there's a course this September. Clearly we're not at that point - but just in case someone else is and is reading this!!

I also agree on the couch, and think it might be a good time to consider a 180 on this perhaps?

So, in sum I would say - slow down, breathe, reassess, have a think about sustainability and what you need here to keep moving forwards.....take care xx

[uRworthy]

Getting over an affair is probably one of the most difficult things one can do. It’s a deep cut, that. Makes us look at ourselves differently. Makes us wonder whether we are so lacking that our spouse made that choice.

We all had stuff in our marriage that contributed to the breakdown of it. Knowing that, I used the affair as the catalyst for the changes I needed to make. It allowed me to look at the ways I may failed in my marriage.

Your wife was unhappy. She didn’t know why. She made some bad choices in her search to feel better. It isn’t the choice you may have made, but, you are not her and you are not in crisis.

As far as he is concerned, he is a fairly typical affair partner. They normally affair down. They choose people who lack many things. It's why the affair very often doesn't last.

He isn’t the problem. The affair isn’t the problem. The problems are the fallout from it. Those are the things that you need to work on…not the bed, the couch, fb or rings. The thing you need to do is to accept that she is human. She is broken and she made some really bad decisions.

So, he is not important. Not in any real sense. He just isn’t. He was a symptom of a crisis and of stuff in a marriage that needed looking into.

Every time you react in a way that is not conducive to whom you’ve become…you make him bigger and more important.

The resulting feelings of rejection and betrayal from the affair become rocks around our necks. We wear them like a shield. Using them to stop what is needed to get in and that is acceptance. Didn’t mean we have to like it or understand it. We just have to accept the choices they’ve made.

Ok, so, I wanted to clarify something. When I write that you may have moved too quickly, I am not talking about that you have “let her off too easily” Because when you say that, it kinda reads like you are in charge of dolling out punishment. When I was going through this, I learned that people do the best they can with what they know, with where they are and with what they’ve got. Not my place to judge, nor my place to condemn because I can only be in control of my actions.

I mean that in order to weather this storm, you have to build a good foundation. In order to do that, you need to be in a place of strength. The way you get there is by consistent actions over time, and by slowly regaining trust. I just think it’s more difficult to do that when you move quickly towards living together before either of you may have let go of what you needed to.

Either way, you have to trust yourself. You have to know, deep within your heart that who you are now is what matters. You have to trust that no matter what happens, you will be ok. You have to own those things that you did in your marriage that caused harm and then you have to forgive yourself and forgive her. (yea, yea, I know AJ…she has to want forgiveness ).

Maybe the damage is so great that you can’t make this work. But let that decision come after you do what you need to do. Let go of what you can. Accept what you cant and then….see where you have landed.

I am not saying that it is easy cuz it isn’t. But it’s the way towards peace for you no matter where this goes.

I am, as always, over here rooting you on with all I have. 

[AJM]

FWIW, I doubt the damage is too much to overcome for you Cali. For her? Time will tell, but I doubt it for her too. I figure if you two can overcome this "test" then nothing will stop you. But I do think you both needed the wake up call even if you wanted it to be done differently.

Either way, you have to trust yourself. You have to know, deep within your heart that who you are now is what matters. You have to trust that no matter what happens, you will be ok. You have to own those things that you did in your marriage that caused harm and then you have to forgive yourself and forgive her. (yea, yea, I know AJ…she has to want forgiveness smile ).

The idea of her wanting forgiveness is one of repentance. I'd say you have both repented of the previous ways if I were asked for an opinion on it. Not with words, which can be cheap, but with actions.

Both of you. You wouldn't be where you are if not.

It's tough stuff, Cali. As the old saying goes, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. That applies to couples/partners as well.

I think Ur has some wise words, as do several of the others. A lot to process, Cali. The one piece that really stands out is the idea that you do NOT want to be in a position of defending or attacking in the relationship. That's more of a goal than an end result. But you've come a long way, baby. It may be just over that next rise...


AJ

[Rick1963]

Cali it is normal to have your walls up. I dont believe it has anything to do with forgiveness. It is normal to be angry and distrustful of someone who has hurt you. It is normal to fantasize that they will fall flat on their face for what they did. It is normal to feel anxious about making decisions and what the right decision is.

It is like having PTSD. Intrusive thoughts, familiar smells will trigger emotions. And you will react to protect yourself. It is an innate defense mechanism.

What im saying is that your reactions are normal. ask your IC if trained in EMDR. Might help.